Virginia Rail #2

[dankearl]

I thought this subject deserved better so I spent some time on this one.
Hope you like it better.
They are beautiful birds, too bad no one gets to see them...

D500, 300 f2.8, 1/1000, iso450, f4
DSC_2298BPN.jpg

[John Mack]

Nice that you caught the bird calling. The details look very nice.

[Randy Stout]

Dan:

A handsome bird indeed. Open bill, red eye, shooting angle, all good.

The under tail coverts look like they were over exposed, not much detail there. Perhaps you could tease out a bit with Nik detail extractor.

I might consider using the clone stamp to just slightly soften the vertical white areas in the background on the right.

Cheers

Randt

[Isaac Grant]

Dan just so you know I have been a birder my whole life and have spent countless hours in swamps looking for rails. So I appreciate how rarely they are in the open. Have only gotten photos once of a Virginia Rail and it was not great. Bird was completely in the open and 4 feet from me with a nice background but it was on bluestone and was thus never processed. You have nice details and nice that the bird is calling. However for me the shot is a delete. You were well off the sun angle and have deep shadows. As Randy mentioned, the undertail is completely blown out and the background is busy and distracting to me. Have to keep trying. Now that you know where it is come up with a plan to get it more out in the open and separated and on a good perch. Don't laugh when I say that. Check out Alan Murphy's Virginia Rail shots and look what he was able to get the bird on. It was lured to that so is possible. Far from easy but possible. Hope that helps.

[dankearl]

Thanks Isaac, obviously you could get a better photo using calls as Alan Murphy does...
As a birder you would know that...
I don't mind the critique, the few of us left expect it, but using set-ups versus real life photos
is kind of lazy critique I think.
Very view photos of this species, I will never get another, but appreciate your review.
BTW, Alan Murphy is a great photographer, not to diminish anything he does, one of the best.

[Isaac Grant]

You are posting to a critique forum. If you do not want honest critiques then I don't know what to tell you. I always, as in 100% of the time give my honest view and give suggestions as to what, why and how I think it could be improved. Nothing personal, nothing mean spirited. Just my views on the shot. If I like it I will tell you why. If I don't I will tell you why and try and give suggestions as to how to improve it. What I said was the opposite of lazy. I pointed out exactly what was wrong with the shot, the head angle, the blown undertail, the off sun angle which caused harsh shadows and the distracting background. I also told you that you have nice details and it was nice that the bird was calling. I also told you have difficult I know the species is, and gave you a suggestion of how to get a better photo including the person I know who has the best Virginia Rail photo. I even told you how I had one opportunity and got the bird in the open with a good background but because it was on bluestone it was not a keeper. Your shot has too many faults for me to be anything other than a record shot, just as my only shot of them was as well. You don't want to use a call to lure the bird into the open, don't. I don't care at all. You don't want to go back and try again even though you know exactly where they are? Don't. I still don't care. Your business. But you post on this forum and I will tell you my honest and not lazy opinion. If you don't like that, I also do not care but please stop with the name calling and the defensive responses.

[dankearl]

Isaac,
You compared my photo to something that someone could do a set up
and do better...
I appreciate all the other points you made.
That is why I called it lazy.
I have posted here for years, I know what the deal is.

BTW, when did I ever call you a name? I respect you, I did no such thing.

[Isaac Grant]

I see these birds in the open once a year or so. I see them lurking in the reeds another couple times a year. Never have a camera with me other than that one time when they were in open. I see how excited you are to shoot them and pointed out that you could do a set up if you want to improve on the shot. And yes if you did and could control where the bird was it would be an improvement. Set ups are hard work and not lazy at all. Sounds much easier than it is. You know where the bird is. Could always set up a blind. Or shoot at night like Mike Poole did with Water Rail. Lots of ways to do it if you really want a high quality shot. I say it all the time. Getting a bird is easy. Getting the light, the pose, the action, the details, the exposure, the head angle, the sun angle, the background and so on each add extra levels of difficulty. Add to that these lurking and skulking little ghost birds and it is close to impossible to get something killer. But it can be done with or without a set up. I have a good friend who really wants a shot of one and it was on our list of target birds this year. Hopefully I get it. But just as before if I don’t get it all oerfect it won’t be a keeper.

[Dorian Anderson]

Everyone has to decide what's a keep for him/herself. If this was my first frame of this sneaky bird, I'd keep it despite the tail highlights and busy BG. I also understand why Isaac wouldn't keep it. So you're both right, to some degree. The details on the bird are nice, but the lighting angle and shadows aren't idea.

As for set-ups, there all levels, legit to lazy. Studying a bird's behavior and putting up a blind in a specific spot takes work. Rolling up to a lodge in Costa Rica and shooting fruit-fed birds five feet away does not. So, not all set-ups are created equal!

[Isaac Grant]

Dorian I kind of agree. Rolling up in Costa Rica to a feeder takes no work for the person who rolled up. Not the person who set up the feeder, cleared the land, fed the birds for weeks or months to get them out of the forest and used to people. For those people it took an enormous amount of work. I have shot set ups that I personally did a few times and I can tell you for a fact that it is way more work than just wandering around and taking opportunistic type photos. Anyone who thinks otherwise should try it and talk about it after they have produced excellent results with their set up. And I am not talking about just putting a perch next to an already established feeder.

[Chris van Rooyen]

Cool looking bird, stunning detail and sharpness. The exposure must have been challenging with the dark background. Open bill is very nice. Agree the whites as a bit overexposed, but given the dark background and direct sunlight it was a challenge to start with...

[Dorian Anderson]

Dorian I kind of agree. Rolling up in Costa Rica to a feeder takes no work for the person who rolled up. Not the person who set up the feeder, cleared the land, fed the birds for weeks or months to get them out of the forest and used to people. For those people it took an enormous amount of work. I have shot set ups that I personally did a few times and I can tell you for a fact that it is way more work than just wandering around and taking opportunistic type photos. Anyone who thinks otherwise should try it and talk about it after they have produced excellent results with their set up. And I am not talking about just putting a perch next to an already established feeder.

Totally hear that. I know how hard it is to do your own set-ups (since I've never been able!) I was, however, talking about established feeder arrays. I mean, how many times have we seen the EXACT same quetzal shot from Paraiso, the EXACT same Harris's Hawk shot from Laguna Seca, and the EXACT same Pyrrhuloxia from Elephant head?!?! I'm guilty on the last one! The main reason I shoot set-up in the tropics is to support the local economy and encourage people to conserve the natural resources. I just think it sucks when people are like 'so-and-so' is such a great bird photographer when 100% of his/her shots come from established set-ups. I wish everyone understood the nuances of shooting rails, for example. But we're the best. And everyone else sucks.

[Isaac Grant]

Shooting set ups is easy I think is the biggest myth that photographers tell themselves. Oh anyone can do that? No way man. No way. Shooting opportunistic shots is a million times easier than finding a way to get a Grosbeak in the forest on your perch, and finding the right perch and the right way to hold the perch on uneven ground and so forth. Then how do you angle the perch on uneven ground so you have proper depth of field? Where can you get the birds with a good background? What time of year. I fully agree Dorian going to an already established place and shooting the same stuff is not hard. Still have to get the rest right but it is a million times easier than doing your own set up. Shooting a Mourning Warbler in a city park during migration when they are crazy hungry is easy compared to going into the forest and getting one on your perch. Just go find them in the vast expanses of forest, let alone getting one in the open. The reason you see all the same shots from the same place is exactly because it is so difficult to do on your own. And so time consuming. On top of that, no one knows how to do it. It is the opposite of lazy in fact. Much much harder work to figure out how to get a shot than it is to luck into one. People think oh I can just play a song a few times and the bird will land exactly where I want it to. Anyone can do that! And that is the exact opposite of the truth. Just a small number of people know how to do it and the rest pay thousands of dollars to sit at someone else's set up.

[William Dickson]

Nits been covered, but very well done on getting a good shot of this elusive bird. If they are anything like our Water Rails, they are very difficult to see, never mind getting a good shot of one. They are very inquisitive though. I was in my small hide one day, years ago, shooting at ducks coming into land, when this Water Rail hopped out of the undergrowth, perched about 10 feet away, head cocked, listening big style to the noise my camera was making on high speed continuous. It never moved for a full 5 minutes...Might not work with the noise of a Nikon though

Will

[dankearl]

This topic went off the rails a bit....
When I said "lazy critique", I did not mean that set-ups are lazy.
They can be difficult.
What I meant is the comparing any real photo to set-up photos is lazy CRITICISM...
Of course a set up is more appealing. but it is apples and oranges.

[Isaac Grant]

Dan I did not compare your photo to anything. I really have no clue what you are talking about. Your shot is a delete for me because of the background, the harsh shadows, the blown underatil coverts and is compounded by the bird facing away. No one compared your shot to anything else. I merely told you that if you wanted to try and get one with a better background or at first light you could work on it and suggested ways to do it. I do know people that have naturally gotten them in the open, and also gotten them swimming with beautiful backgrounds. It is hard but possible. So you could work on it whatever way you choose to. Try for it naturally or work on a set up. It doesn't matter one bit to me. Or you could simply stop trying which is your right. But please stop telling me that I gave you a lazy criticism and that I compared your photo to a set up photo.

[dankearl]

Enough of this discussion, just stupid.
Your first reply was this...

"Check out Alan Murphy's Virginia Rail shots and look what he was able to get the bird on."

No comparison you say?

[Isaac Grant]

Yes that is not a comparison at all. Not even close. That is showing you that these birds can be lured into the open if you want to do in the work. Some people may not know that. But the background is only one of many problems with this shot. Shooting from a blind could allow you to be there at first light which could fix the lighting issue. And if you get lucky then maybe it could be far enough from the background that you could get a pleasing background. Why would I compare a poorly lit, harshly shadowed distracting background and over exposed shot to an Alan Murphy shot. That would be stupid.