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Thread: Welcome to HD posting on BPN

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    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
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    Default Welcome to HD posting on BPN

    After talking to Artie on the phone two weeks ago, we deiced to upgrade the BPN posting size to full HD, i.e. 1920 pixels wide. This is a blessing for those of us using 4k/5k screen as 1200 pixel images look like a postage stamp on these screens. Now we can show our images much better, and BPN is the only critique site to my knowledge which offers full HD posting.

    As for myself I no longer save my files smaller than 1920 pixels wide (mostly 3000 pixels wide) and I find it hard to provide accurate critique on smaller images, so please excuse me if I won't be commenting much on images that are small. Another reason to post large :)


    here is one image from a couple of weeks ago, male kestrel

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    Lifetime Member gail bisson's Avatar
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    Hi Arash,
    Lovely image and IQ. Love the BG colors as well.
    I am not a fan of this new posting guideline. I do not have a 4/5K 27 inch monitor and find myself needing to hit command - twice to be able to see the image in its entirety. I think it would be good to know exactly how many members have such high end desktops.If the majority here have these desktops then I agree it is the way to go.
    But I am most sad to hear that you will not be commenting on any images that are not posted at 1920 pixels. A lot of us will be excluded from your critiques when you do participate on the site and that will be a valuable loss to me and others. Please reconsider,
    Gail

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    I agree and support Gail's comments.
    Joe Przybyla

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    Macro and Flora Moderator Jonathan Ashton's Avatar
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    Arash I fully appreciate your viewpoint but I suspect there will be many more with differing views. The vast majority of people on this forum will not have 4k/5k screens so whilst I appreciate it will benefit you it will not be so convenient for those who have to move the large image around the screen in order to view its entirety. I cannot help but feel we could end up with an inclusive or non inclusive membership to the 1920 pixel club if everyone posting 1920 decided not to offer critique on smaller images, indeed, some may even decide the same in reverse i.e. no point me looking at images that don't fit on my screen. Some may decide this is the way to go, the big posters and the smaller posters.
    1400px x 1050px used to be the international competition standard and now it is 1600px max by 1200max - would this still be a postage stamp on your screen?
    If the 1920px remains the largest image size, I hope people will realise that they can post up to that size i.e. they are not expected to post that size. Nothing wrong with 1920px - provided you have to full facility to enjoy it...... I too would ask that you reconsider your stance in offering critique on smaller images.

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    BPN Member Bill Dix's Avatar
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    The Kestrel is gorgeous; beautiful light, pose, detail. But I wish there were a little more room at the right. If this were to be framed (which it deserves) the frame would clip the tail.

    I'm with Gail and Jonathan. Much as I would love to have a 4k/5k 27-inch monitor, I'm not there yet. I've chosen to spend my limited resources on lenses and travel. Someday I will upgrade. Until then, the 1920px image doesn't fit on my screen so why should I post to that size? Sorry I'll miss your critiques.

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    As someone who recently purchased a 5k imac and before that having purchased a 4k 32" monitor I fully understand what is going on here. There are 2 issues. The first is the size of the images at 1200 that Arash is referring to. They are tiny on my monitor and it is hard to see even see what is going on. The second is far more important to me. Not only are they tiny but they look bad. Not most of them, all of them. This includes my images as well of course. I have recently had a long phone conversation with David Salem about his process to post images and how he gets them sharp when downsized to 1200 wide as he also owns a 5k imac. I will have a full res pic that looks fantastic on my screen. When I downsize it to 1200 pics it literally looks horrible. It looks like a totally different shot. We processed a photo together when on the phone and both laughed at how bad my photo looked when we downsized it. We also tried downsizing it different ways to see if results were any better. I have been really struggling with what to do about this and how to post a photo for critique when I can't make fine adjustments to the photo nor see it well enough to do so. So I think the issue is that there is no way to properly critique a 1200 x image when viewed on a 4k or 5k screen. Not trying to speak for Arash, but only for myself. I now have my old PC (need it for work) and new imac on my desk together. I view many images on my phone or one my old 1920 screen to get a better feel for the image as the issue is that bad with the 5k screen. So I fully welcome the increased size we can post at now. But I will also still view the smaller images on the other monitor to give a proper critique. The real issue is that if I did not have another monitor sitting on my desk I know that there is no way that I could properly comment on an image.
    Last edited by Isaac Grant; 01-15-2018 at 10:16 PM.

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    Hi Isaac, I read your post and understand and relate to your comments. I do not know what the resolution will be, but I do know that for what I believe is the majority of members computer displays 1920 pixels is too large. Yes, Ctrl + - can zoom the image down but then the text becomes very small. I hope that the result is not that you few with 4k/5k post 1920 pixel images post and comment on those while the rest of us post smaller and comment on those.
    Last edited by Joseph Przybyla; 01-15-2018 at 12:22 PM.
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    BPN Member Bill Dix's Avatar
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    Isaac, your post helped to shed more light on the issue, but I don't know what the solution is. Maybe Jonathan's mention of a 1600px compromise would help. I also see that if I use Ctrl (-) twice, I can see all of Arash's Kestrel, and the tail is not right at the edge as I had thought. When I first looked at it, even though I scrolled all the way to the right, I wasn't seeing the full image, further illustrating the problem for those of us who are monitor-challenged. As I type this having hit Ctrl(-) twice, my aging eyes can hardly see the type.

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    Macro and Flora Moderator Jonathan Ashton's Avatar
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    Isaac ditch the big screen - waste of money (only kidding!!)

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    BPN Member Bill Dix's Avatar
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    What is the max. file size with the new protocol? Presumably larger than 400K.

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    Macro and Flora Moderator Jonathan Ashton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dix View Post
    What is the max. file size with the new protocol? Presumably larger than 400K.
    Bill, >600K , I set mine to 595K

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Dix View Post
    Isaac, your post helped to shed more light on the issue, but I don't know what the solution is. Maybe Jonathan's mention of a 1600px compromise would help. I also see that if I use Ctrl (-) twice, I can see all of Arash's Kestrel, and the tail is not right at the edge as I had thought. When I first looked at it, even though I scrolled all the way to the right, I wasn't seeing the full image, further illustrating the problem for those of us who are monitor-challenged. As I type this having hit Ctrl(-) twice, my aging eyes can hardly see the type.
    Bill try F11 that should maximise for you.

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    Gorgeous light on this kestrel Arash, IQ is superb. I understand the dilemma regarding sizing, quality of smaller sized images and 4K/5K screens. I hope this does not created divisiveness amongst us... We have been commented for years at 1200 and it has helped all of us. Please consider your commenting regardless of image size and any limitation this may create; your input is valuable.

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    I fully agree with Gail. BPN always been great even before we moved to larger resolutions. I can see most of the images fine on my home PC but nowhere else. Here at work where I sometimes come into the forum to have a look, I only see half of the image at that. On my laptop which I use a lot while on travel, it's the same problem. Also, excluding certain posts/users from critiques because they are not at 1920px is a bit too much in my honest opinion. I think BPN will lose more than gain with this new high resolution stuff.
    Last edited by Raybel Robles; 01-15-2018 at 01:41 PM.

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    BPN Member William Dickson's Avatar
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    I can see your image perfectly on my 27 iMac and it looks real good at that size. Beautiful frame with lovely colours throughout.

    On my laptop I cannot see it without changing my settings, like a lot of members have to do, and I don't think you get the same look and feel for the image when doing this.

    As Jon mentioned, 1600 x 1200 sounds good.

    What do others think of 1600 x 1200!!

    Will

    PS What was the outcome of the survey carried out re monitors
    Last edited by William Dickson; 01-15-2018 at 01:54 PM.

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    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
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    Thanks guys, I am sorry but if you are serious about photography you need to have a good monitor, it makes no sense to have a 1DX and a 600mm lens then use a crunchy old monitor to view the files... just saying Most all the photographers I know and shoot with have a 5K monitor, all Apple products have a retina (5K screen) and that's what most folks use.


    For me it's just hard to see wha's going on in the small images, so I cannot provide meaningful critique.
    best
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 01-15-2018 at 02:14 PM.
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    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybel Robles View Post
    I fully agree with Gail. BPN always been great even before we moved to larger resolutions. I can see most of the images fine on my home PC but nowhere else. Here at work where I sometimes come into the forum to have a look, I only see half of the image at that. On my laptop which I use a lot while on travel, it's the same problem. Also, excluding certain posts/users from critiques because they are not at 1920px is a bit too much in my honest opinion. I think BPN will lose more than gain with this new high resolution stuff.
    Raybel,

    You don't have to post at large size you can still post at the small size and view/comment on those images.

    best
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 01-15-2018 at 02:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Raybel,

    You don't have to post at large size you can still post at the small size and view/comment on those images.

    best
    I understand, I mean in the sense of people not commenting because the images are too large and don't know or don't bother to zoom out to see it and other not commenting because the images are too small for their 4K, 5K etc. monitors to see it properly. It creates too much division between the users IMO.

    Also, I save most of my images at 1800px wide. If I was to post it at that size would it be fine to see in your 4K/5K monitor? or will it still be too small?

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    This looks good to me, lovely light on the kestrel and great detail. Full size image fits well on my 27" monitor with a resolution of 2560 x 1440 if that helps.

    The end of the branch where it has snapped off looks a little odd to me, might just be some oof bits though I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon Davis View Post
    This looks good to me, lovely light on the kestrel and great detail. Full size image fits well on my 27" monitor with a resolution of 2560 x 1440 if that helps.

    The end of the branch where it has snapped off looks a little odd to me, might just be some oof bits though I guess.

    Hi Simon, yes it is oddly angled OOF branch, I will try to clean it up in photoshop I missed it!

    Thanks
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 01-15-2018 at 04:14 PM.
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    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybel Robles View Post
    I understand, I mean in the sense of people not commenting because the images are too large and don't know or don't bother to zoom out to see it and other not commenting because the images are too small for their 4K, 5K etc. monitors to see it properly. It creates too much division between the users IMO.

    Also, I save most of my images at 1800px wide. If I was to post it at that size would it be fine to see in your 4K/5K monitor? or will it still be too small?
    Hi Raybel,

    I think my point wasn't clear, it is rather meaningless to provide critique on a 1200 pixel image on a 4K/5K screen. It is too small for critique. Would you be able to critique an image on your screen that was only 300 pixels wide?

    Unfortunately there is no solution, even today some people still shoot in film but the rest of the world has moved on.

    1800 pixel is much better, note that a 1800 pixel image contains 2.25X as many pixels as a 1200 pixel image.

    best
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 01-15-2018 at 04:15 PM.
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    Beautiful Image.

    I agree with everyone on the HD stuff, not everyone is interested in posting at that high resolutions as they don't have the monitors for the same.

    As for me, I agree that images are much better when posted at higher resolution. I have Mac Pro, recently got a decent monitor and other cheap monitors at work. Now I can't ask them to upgrade to high end monitors..

    I notice the difference in them, Having options to post at higher resolution is good but I might stick to 1200 for now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    Hi Raybel,

    I think my point wasn't clear, it is rather meaningless to provide critique on a 1200 pixel image on a 4K/5K screen. It is too small for critique. Would you be able to critique an image on your screen that was only 300 pixels wide?

    Unfortunately there is no solution, even today some people still shoot in film but the rest of the world has moved on.

    1800 pixel is much better, note that a 1800 pixel image contains 2.25X as many pixels as a 1200 pixel image.

    best
    Thanks Arash, I understand. I will post at 1800px from now on, hopefully that will be a good compromise for people with both type of monitors 4K and not.

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    BPN Member Tim Foltz's Avatar
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    Arash, way to big for my 24 inch monitor, but this size is prime for thieves drag and drop & print and sell, I had one friend that found a guy in New York
    selling most of his best shots. Something to consider...

    -Tim
    Last edited by Tim Foltz; 01-15-2018 at 05:44 PM.

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    Arash, Tim has a valid point: at this size the jpeg quality is desirable for thieves, any protection of our images on BPN?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Foltz View Post
    Arash, way to big for my 24 inch monitor, but this size is prime for thieves drag and drop & print and sell, I had one friend that found a guy in New York
    selling most of his best shots. Something to consider...

    -Tim

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    If you are worried about image downloads you shouldn't be posting online, no website can prevent image downloads. Most folks here may not even know but when you post on social media such as Facebook, the photo becomes property of FB, you readily agree to that when signing up for a FB account.

    At least when posting on BPN, photographer retains possession and copyright of the photo, BPN actually does allow for downloads but only for demonstration direct related to critique. We ask that any image dowloaded be deleted after the thread has run its course and points discussed.

    I perosnally haven't had much luck selling images, who would pay to buy an image in this day and age when you can always find and view a better image online. You also can't make a print out of compressed JPEG file, it will look bad... just saying


    Again one more time, you can still post at smaller size if you wish to.
    Last edited by arash_hazeghi; 01-15-2018 at 08:51 PM.
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    Joe you could view the image and then read the text separately when the text is not so small. I get that is far from ideal but it is better than the alternative of many people not being able to even see what is going on with an image.

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    Beautiful work Arash - as usual. The colour and tonal range on the bird look excellent with great detail throughout. I did notice the OOF weirdness on the perch's end too when I looked at this yesterday so good if you are able to clean it up. Background is excellent and I like the crop.

    The new size certainly makes the image rock but I'm in the same boat as many others with a standard 1920x1080 screen that does not display your image full size. For some reason, it won't even scroll properly so I lose the left and right edges. I had to go 'view image' in my browser (Firefox) to see the full composition. I'll be posting at 1400 to 1600 wide to avoid this and to enable most other users here to view with minimal hassle. But I understand your logic here too.
    Last edited by Glenn Pure; 01-16-2018 at 06:19 AM.

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    Arash, is there a way to see a posted image without it being inside the restriction of the website frame?
    Joe Przybyla

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    Super Moderator arash_hazeghi's Avatar
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    do you use a Mac or PC? laptop or desktop?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi View Post
    do you use a Mac or PC? laptop or desktop?
    Hi Arash, I use a PC desktop.
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    When I check on my Mac pro , I cannot see the complete image. I cant scroll right to see the image as well.

    The Image seems to be cut in between the Subject.

    Interestingly I don't the see the same issue in Sandhill Crane post which was also 1920 pixels wide.

    In that post I can scroll horizontally in the Frame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krishna Prasad kotti View Post
    When I check on my Mac pro , I cannot see the complete image. I cant scroll right to see the image as well.

    The Image seems to be cut in between the Subject.

    Interestingly I don't the see the same issue in Sandhill Crane post which was also 1920 pixels wide.

    In that post I can scroll horizontally in the Frame.
    I don't understand what you are trying to say.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joseph Przybyla View Post
    Hi Arash, I use a PC desktop.
    Hi Joseph, I checked this image on a 24" dell HD monitor (1920x1080). The right side of the image is clipped in the browser unfortunately, I think this is because of BPN's web interface. The image area does not allow scroll bars so the browser will cut off the RHS. You could press ctrl and - to have the browser zoom back but the quality might diminish a bit... sorry there is no solution

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    Hi Arash,

    For some posts, the right side of the image is getting clipped and for some posts they are not getting clipped.


    Thanks
    Krishna

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    Arash I always have this problem on your images. Even before the larger size limits. If I view everyone's photos on my phone I can scroll right to see the rest of the image but I never can on your images for some reason. It happens once in a while with other images as well but happens on every image you post. I often wondered what caused that. Meaning I can only view the left edge of the image and nothing else.

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    I see what you mean, let me try a different upload method to see if it makes any difference, I don't know why it does that.
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    I can only see the bill and half the eye on my DELL laptop. I plug it into a larger flat screen monitor, and i see the same thing

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    Hi Arash,

    Wanted to ask what your viewing distance is from the monitor? For me viewing the new posting size is analogous to sitting in the front row of a movie theatre.
    Yes to make your image fit on my 23" monitor, I can zoom out twice to make it fit, but run into the same issue with small type size.
    I might add that some photographs, especially of smaller birds, Sparrows, House Finches, for example, to me and I'm sure others, don't look that appealing if larger than actual or near actual size.
    I too am not a fan of the new posting size. Glad to see the discussion continues.

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    Hi Geoffrey. From my perspective there is no real answer to this issue. Some of us will post at the larger size and some will at smaller sizes. And people will have issues with both ways. If you use a smaller monitor than the large postings will be too big for you and you will have to zoom in and out. The type size isn't really an issue as you can view the image and then zoom back and read the type at the correct size. Alternatively, for people with the large monitors, every smaller photo that is posted is impossible to view properly and comment on. Sharpness is just off, the size is too small and there is no way to properly critique them. Those smaller images are just tiny on the larger monitors. I think that the larger images really open up a whole new arena for people with 4 and 5k monitors to be able to view and enjoy images on BPN. Before I bought this imac I bought a 32" 4k monitor and the issue was even worse. I think that because we are all using different monitors there is no one right size or answer.

    As an aside, I would encourage all that can afford to upgrade their monitors to do so. Clearly we all do not have the luxury of doing so, but if you do then I think that a high quality monitor is essential for really high quality output. Having used the 4k and now my 5k monitor I can just see things that I could not see before. There are photos that when viewed on my old monitor that I thought were good on this monitor look over sharpened and crunchy or not tack sharp. The level of detail is fantastic and it really helps to separate a sharp photo from a tack sharp photo. Most decent photos on lower quality monitors will look pretty good at small sizes but when viewed at larger sizes on the 4k/5k screens you can really see the imperfections. Again I know that owning a 5k monitor is a luxury, but I also own a very expensive camera and even more expensive lens and accessories. I spend a great deal of time in the field, in cold and heat, crawling through mud, climbing mountains, etc. Not only do I get to view my work on a better monitor, but I also get to be more discerning with the photos I choose to keep. I really think it is a vital part of the workflow and not something that we should be taking for granted.

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    Hi Isaac, regarding your most recent comments I say... naaah. I was a Professional Land Sueveyor, I do not intend to be a professional photographer, I am happy being a good photgrapher. Judging what to spend our money on it is not a new computer and display, I am happy with what I have, also my camera and lens. Bird photography is a hobby and enjoyment. I do not need the newest and best. So if you and Arash do no want to comment on the images I post at 1200 pixels, so be it. I cannot comment on yours at 1920 pixels, just too large to see properly. I hate to see this happening but I guess it is inevitable, that BPN will split into two groups.
    Joe Przybyla

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    It is only a matter of time before every monitor sold is a 4K monitor, technology progresses rapidly and we have to move with it if we want to attract new talent and viewership for the site, some folks still use flip phones and shoot in film, nothing wrong with that of course. I think for a while there will be different posting sizes, when we moved to 1200 pixel from 1024 it also took a while but eventually everyone moved to 1200 and I believe next year at the same time 90% of our posts will be HD.

    Please don't take this personally as Issac mentioned it's purely a technical issue, it is not that we do not "want" to comment on the smaller files, I have commented on photos on this site more than anyone else so it's not a matter of not wanting to.


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    I can't help but agree with Arash on this one. And Joe, as I mentioned earlier in this thread I will continue to comment on the smaller photos as I have done today. I can still view them from my old monitor and on my phone. But I can not give any meaningful critique using the 5k monitor.

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    Lifetime Member David Salem's Avatar
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    The shot looks great Arash especially in the larger size As we can see tons of detail now .
    I just posted a image and I decided to try posting a 1200 and a 1920 pixel image together.
    Not sure what your thoughts are on it but I thought it might be a way to let everybody see the images posted.
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