5DIV in the bird photography hierarchy

[Mike Hitchen]

For those who have experience of both bodies, where do you see the 5DIV sitting in the hierarchy for birds in flight: I have a 7Dii and am wondering if the 5DIV is a worthy upgrade. Most reviews are on static subjects looking at resolution and I am finding it hard to find anything that talks about speed to focus and tracking.
I recently hired a 1DxII and it has distinct advantages over the 7Dii especially IQ at high ISO (1600 and above) and on accuracy/solidity of focus. I am not expecting 1DxII performance from the 5DIV but wondering where it lies on the scale from a wildlife point of view.
I have a greater interest in the behavioural shots rather than prioritising birds in flight but I will always try to get the latter whenever I can.

Any advice is appreciated

[arash_hazeghi]

The 5D4 is much better than the 7D2 which, IMO, is mediocre at best when it comes to IQ and AF. You will get more accurate AF and excellent IQ/sharpness with the 5D4 compared to 7d2. But, it is a bit slow for action shots, it will fall short in some situations. It is not a 1DX/1DX II. If I had to have one body for BIF I'd still pick the older 1DX (which now goes used for about the same as a new 5D4) over the 5D4. Of course if you can afford a 1DXII, it's a no brainer for action and in-flight shots. The 5D4 really excels for perched and static shots and flight shots when action is not very intense.

hope this helps

[arash_hazeghi]

PS. I'll have my review of 5D4 published soon, stay tuned for it

[Mike Hitchen]

Thank you, Arash. On image quality alone, the 1DxII gave me an improvement in IQ that was almost like upgrading the lens (the 100-400 MkII is my long lens at the moment) especially, as I mentioned, at higher ISO 1600+ even after cropping to the same FOV.
The 5DIV vs 1Dx (original) has occurred to me as well so there is some decision to be made. I look forward to reading your review.

[Bob Hutson]

PS. I'll have my review of 5D4 published soon, stay tuned for it

Been looking forward to it.

[Doug Brown]

I've really come to love the 5D Mark IV for bird photography, BIF included. I own a 1Dx Mark II but find myself reaching for the 5D4 more often than not. 30MP is like having a built-in 1.3 crop and that comes in handy.

[Geoff Newhouse]

I am currently trying to sell my 5DSR to move to the 5D4 despite the ~$1200CDN loss I will take on a body (5DSR) I only got in May 2016. The 5D4 will be a companion to my 1DX and 1DX2. After reading Arash's review on 5D4 my only disappointment is that the 400DOII/2xTCIII AF won't be what I'm used to on the 1DX2. I was hoping it would be really close but I guess those expectations were not realistic considering the history of 1 series AF dominance vs similar generation cameras with the same basic AF system.

[arash_hazeghi]

I think the 5D4 is much better value than the 5DSR that has very limited application for making large prints but it is poor at everything else. The 5D4 really shines as an all around camera. The more I use it the more I like it.

[Jim Keener]

Okay. This answers my question about a second camera; I think. I own a 5D Mark IV and have been comparing getting another one versus a 1DX Mark II. Does getting a second 5D Mark IV make sense?

[arash_hazeghi]

Two cameras of the same kind doesn't really make sense to me. I have a 1DX II and a 5D4 but I use them for different subjects. I was shooting in Canada last months and used my 5D when shooting from a blind and my 1D for shooting SEO flight shots.

[Isaac Grant]

So here is the magic question. I have been wanting to go to a full frame for a long time. I think my image quality is maxed out with my 7d2. I only have the budget for 1 camera that i use all the time. Would you get a 5d4, a 1dx or a 1dxii. Again it would be 1 camera for all around use. Do the added fps of the 1dx/dx2 out weigh the extra pixels of the 5d4. If you could get just one of these 3 cameras which would you get and why?

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Issac,
your question does not have a straightforward answer. It depends on what you would like to shoot, if you are shooting subjects that you usually post in the avian forum, i.e. static shots I think the 5D4 will be great, the IQ blows the 7D out of the water, AF is much better (more accurate) too and FPS is sufficient for most if not all cases.

But If you are after action, dynamic frames, interaction and the kind of stuff that I shoot the 5D4 is just not adequate. it's not just the FPS, it just doesn't have the sheer AF horse power that's in a 1D camera. When I was shooting owl in Canada I find that the 5D4 was very good for perched owls like the example blow





Short-eared owl, 5D4

but if you are after shots like the ones below, the 5D4 simply cannot do it. During only two mornings of shoot the 1DXII delivered hundreds of tack sharp in flight frames, making the most out of the limited opportunity, while I only had 2-3 good flight shots with the 5D4, so if that were my only camera it would have been terribly disappointing. Of course if you can go somewhere over and over and try many times, or if the birds do the same thing over and over like shooting ducks the 5D4 will grab great frames here and there but overall it doesn't stack up against a 1D for this style of shooting.

1DX II really excels in capturing dynamic frames no matter what the conditions are





1DX was great in AF department as well



So if I were to have just one camera it would be a 1D without any doubt, but others may have a different answer.

[Isaac Grant]

As always your answers are detailed and fantastic. Thanks so much. I have never shot a full frame and the only camera I own is the 7d ii. Prior to that I had the 70d and 20d Leads me to a follow up question.

You have posted pictures of large and slow flying raptors, except maybe for the Peregrine depending on the situation of course. Does the 1dxii really out perform the 5d4 drastically with these birds? If so to me that is quite a big strike against the 5d4. I spend a good amount of time with a local Purple Martin colony. Posted a picture the other day. Those are so difficult to keep in the middle of the camera as they are crazy fast, small and close. To me they would present the kind of situation where I would really need the auto focus speed of a 1dxii as well as the tracking ability. I also try to get flight shots of some local shorebirds as well and they are extremely difficult to stay on. Small and little speed demons. Perhaps I am wrong, but all of the larger birds that I have photographed in flight have been relatively easy to track even with the 7dii.

Is it more the ability to track combined with the autofocus speed that yields a higher percentage of tack sharp shots in those situations? Or am I missing something? Those 3 shots you posted above are just stunning!

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Issac, I am not sure which large and slow flying raptors you are talking about?

[Isaac Grant]

The pics you just posted above in pane #12. Short-eared and burrowing owl are much larger and less erratic flyers than say any of the smaller shorebirds and or martins and swallows. Does the 1dxii really out perform the 5d4 on those birds? Or as I said is it a combination of the speed at which the cameras focus, the accuracy, the tracking ability and the additional frames per second that really make the 1dxii out perform that 5d4 for those birds.

[Geoff Newhouse]

Hi Isaac,

Thought I'd add a few of my thoughts. I've only been shooting the 5D4 for a month now and previously shot the 7D2, 5D3, 1D4 and 5DSR. I also currently use the 1DX and 1DX2 with the 5D4.

I would say for most BIF that of course the 1DX2 is ideal....although for eagles and large herons and pelicans....things like that the 5D4 will do just fine. Shooting diving ravens the other day the 1DX2 did outperform the 5D4 in number of keepers (same 400doII/1.4TC used on both).

But for perched birds and floating birds the 5D4 is great, has ISO that is very comparable to the 1DX/2 and has those extra 10MPs that for some reason don't hamper the ISO noise like the 50MPs of the 5DSR did.

5D4 vs 1DX is trickier. I feel that still for a subject like the diving ravens the other day the 1DX would perform a little bit better but I didn't lug it along to directly compare as I hike to get to a cliff above the ravens and already had 2 bodies and the 400DOII. I have used it last year in the same spot but with 300 2.8 back then so can't directly compare. Will have to test that some day.

However, for f/8 combos I would pick up my 5D4 everyday of the week over the 1DX (not 1DX2). It is really good for shooting f/8 stuff and so far I've tested it on 100-400II/1.4 and 400DOII/2x. I will soon be testing it on 200-400/1.4/1.4 and 600II/2x and see how that goes. But I don't usually shoot fast subjects (like the ravens) with f/8 combos anyways and if I do I'll use the 1DX2 for sure. Just to note these weren't ravens flying by, these are ravens that pick up sticks and spruce cones and basically play with each other in the air doing severe banking turns and backflips and all sorts of crazy things. For a raven just cruising by I could probably use my Rebel and get some good frames!!

My opinion on the 7D2 was that AF was too inconsistent and it required a higher SS to get tack sharp flight shots which in turn required a higher ISO and that entails worse noise and poorer IQ than just using the 1DX and cropping. I got 1000s of great frames out of my 7D2 but half the days were just giant AF headaches and shooting tonnes of images to get a few perfect keepers. Just too inconsistent for me compared to all my other cameras I was using at the time (5D3, 1DX, 1D4).

If I had to rank the cameras for birds:
1) 1DX2
1DX and 5D4 about equal but better at different things. And as noted the 5D4 even over 1DX2 for perched, floating birds for the extra detail. So no real way to rank them. But the 5D4 is a very nice camera for a lot of bird and wildlife work. I was not sure if selling my 5DSR (just bought in May) at a bit of a loss and spending more on the 5D4 was going to be a good idea but after this month of shooting I'm 100% happy with my decision.

Hope some of this helps

Cheers
Geoff

[arash_hazeghi]

The pics you just posted above in pane #12. Short-eared and burrowing owl are much larger and less erratic flyers than say any of the smaller shorebirds and or martins and swallows. Does the 1dxii really out perform the 5d4 on those birds? Or as I said is it a combination of the speed at which the cameras focus, the accuracy, the tracking ability and the additional frames per second that really make the 1dxii out perform that 5d4 for those birds.

Hi Issac,

I am afraid you are mistaken. Maybe you haven't seen one or haven't experienced photographing it yet, but a burrowing owl is one of the smallest owls (only 7-8" tall) and it is definitely extremely fast, besides that the flight path is very short and erratic. It is smaller than most shorebirds in fact. Short eared is larger than a burrowing owl but still smaller than an adult American Avocet. Not a slow bird by any means, especially when flying towards you. Both of these birds are significantly more difficult to photograph in flight than most shore birds. Shorebirds often don't have the same color as the BG which makes it even easier for the camera to lock. In fact you won't find that many incoming burrowing owl shots that are in sharp focus on the net but will probably find thousands of great shore bird flight images.

For e.g. if by small shore bird you mean something like this (plover), this is a piece of cake compared to the images I posted above. If I were shooting these birds with the 5D4 my exception is that I would probably come up with a third or even half as many frames as I would with the 1DXII. Compare that to 2-3 (5D4) versus several hundred (1DX2) in the example above.







As for the 1DX II, as I mentioned above it's not just one thing that makes the 1DXII ideal for flight photography, it's the faster AF, faster fps, dual processor, performance with TC, unlimited buffer, etc, etc. Going back to the owl example with 7fps, even if every shot was tack sharp, none may have the perfect symmetric wing position I showed above. BIF photography is not just getting it sharp, everyone and every camera can get a sharp butt shot or a steep angle shot against the sky. In order to excel you really need to focus on the dynamic elements such as the wing position, head angle, pose, bank angle etc. all need to be perfect and sometimes even 14fps is not enough.

hope this helps

[arash_hazeghi]

Do note that the 5D4 is pretty much unusable for BIF (if you are after avian quality photos) when you use it with a 2X TC, despite the fact that it has the full AF array active. It will hunt quite a bit and lag behind the bird. The original 1DX is MUCH faster with its center point when it comes to locking on BIF. I might be picky with the quality and the type of the shots I consider a keeper but having used the 5D4 since Sept (I probably got the first copy form B&H ) I have less than 10 in-flight frames with it with a 2X Extender attached. In fact I have made a rule for myself not to use it for flight and thus miss a great opportunity!

[arash_hazeghi]

This is the type of shot where I'd prick a 5D4 over a 1DX2 if this was my primary focus. It worked really well and the quality of the files is stunning both at ISO 1600.

[Mike Hitchen]

Thank you Arash and Geoff for some very interesting comments.
One thing that has become a frustration for me with the 7D2 is the rate at which it clears the buffer - it is one of those ergonomic things that is small but starts to irritate. The 1Dx2 I rented was very quick to be ready for the next sequence - how does the 5D4 compare?

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Mike see my review for your answer
http://arihazeghiphotography.com/blo...-field-review/

[Mike Hitchen]

Thankyou Arash - I did read the review when you first released it and did not remember comment on the buffer. I should have checked!

[Isaac Grant]

Thanks Arash for the detailed answer and fantastic photos as examples. But you are not helping my wallet here! Seems that if getting only one camera to be used in all situations then I am better off with the 1dxii.

[Marlo Casabar]

Hi Mike see my review for your answer
http://arihazeghiphotography.com/blo...-field-review/

Thank you Arash for detailed information. I have been going back and forth about upgrading from 7DII to either the 5DIV or 1DXII. Since my true passion is birds in flight it looks like the 1DXII is the way to go. I am getting an evaluation loan from CPS for upcoming Spring Break. My family and I are headed to Florida so I will have plenty of chances to check out the camera's capabilities.

Marlo

[arash_hazeghi]

For folks who want to spend less money I also recommend the original 1DX, an excellent camera by all means and at a bargain price now. For shooting action and in-flight frames the difference between the 1DX and 1DXII is much less than the 1DXII and the 5D4.

[Joe Subolefsky]

I guess part of it depends on what type of birds your shooting. I've had no problem shooting eagles,ducks,geese and some Hawks in flight with the 2x on my 600II with the 5DIV. That said I plan on selling my 7DII and putting the money towards either a 1DX or 1DXII just to increase the number of frames when I'm decoying hawks over an owl decoy.Ive had 2 encounters with decoying merlins and yet to get a frame I'm happy with.

[Geoff Newhouse]

I guess part of it depends on what type of birds your shooting. I've had no problem shooting eagles,ducks,geese and some Hawks in flight with the 2x on my 600II with the 5DIV. That said I plan on selling my 7DII and putting the money towards either a 1DX or 1DXII just to increase the number of frames when I'm decoying hawks over an owl decoy.Ive had 2 encounters with decoying merlins and yet to get a frame I'm happy with.

I agree also...it really depends on subject matter as I was fine with eagles on the 5D4 and 400DOII/2xTCIII which I finally got a chance at this past weekend. Even the dive bombing ravens were doing okay with the 5D4 at f/8 but for sure I quickly switched to 1DX2 as it is way better and high FPS is key in that type of wild flight photography. Still I need to better compare 1DX with 5D4 at f/8....but I trust Arash's opinion on the subject. Still I still have my 1DX (won't ever sell that until 1DX3 arrives in 2020) so I will try to compare back to back with my 5D4 to confirm to myself Arash's results (at least for my type of subjects which is rarely small raptors iF).

[Isaac Grant]

Bit the bullet and just purchased a used 1dx for a very reasonable price. When it arrives I will test it out and hopefully have some good stuff to post with it. Ultimately I decided that my budget can not handle having a 5d4 and a 1dx2 now. But I could for the price of a new 1dx2 get a used 1dx and a 5d4 as well. The 1dx was the first step.

[Joe Subolefsky]

Kinda on the same path. As I wrote above already have the 5DIV which and just sold off my 7DII and picked up a practically new 1DX (just over 2000 clicks) extra Canon battery and GPS transmitter(that I will never use) in the box for $2,500. I'm hoping it's focus is comparable to the 5DIV if not I'll most likely sell it quick and get the MKII.

[Isaac Grant]

Did you get the one off of Artie's site? That was a great deal!!! Congrats. Mine had about 89,000 clicks and I got it for $2,600. Really clean camera and I am very happy with it despite the deal you got . I'm curious how you like it compared to the 5d4. I'm not sure I will ever pick up the 7d2 again. It is a great camera but it is just not nearly as good as the 1dx. Image quality is not the same, neither is the speed, ability to lift shadows, low ISO performance, autofocus, etc. I will just have to be better at my field craft to make up for the crop factor. But in my limited use, you can crop much more with 1dx files and keep the sharpness.

[Joe Subolefsky]

Yes it was the one for sale on Artie's site. Haven't got the chance to shoot it yet but Im not expecting the files to match my 5DIV from what Arash and others write . Like I said in the post before I really just wanted one for the increase frame rate shooting decoying hawks etc. For bigger birds I'm already very comfortable shooing the 5DIV even with extenders but I'm more of a delebrate shooter never been the spray and pray type.

[Isaac Grant]

Well congrats again. You got a sick deal. I would be very interested in hearing yours or others thoughts on image quality comparisons between the 1dx and the 5d4. Other pros and cons that may not be so apparent. As I mentioned prior, don't have the budget for a 1dxii and a 5d4 but could get a used 1dx and a 5d4. Would be great to see some direct comparisons or something. Even of geese at a local duck pond.