Another experiment in the series of Butcher Birds. I am finding them to be extremely helpful in the learning of this this craft. This image was captured at much less than the preferred settings of high ISOs and SSs.
The histogram shown is prior to any ACR adjustments. The crop thumbnail also shows image before any adjustments in ACR.
In ACR - Increased exposure by 1/4 stop. Reduced highlights -90 Increased Shadows +26 Clarity +11 (I can see by the histogram that the Shadows were clipped?)
In PSCS6 - One Curves Layer and one HS Layer, burned beak a little, cropped and USM body only for web posting.
Canon 5D2
Sigma 150-600 Sport @ 600mm
Sorry Steve - 1/320sec @f6.3
Sorry Steve - ISO 250
Tripod
Unable to find EC
Interested to see any comments on IQ and technical things.
C&C Always welcomed and appreciated!
Last edited by Glennie Passier; 02-10-2016 at 02:37 AM.
Steve, I have sent the image to you. Thank you! This image was more a lesson for me. I can see the little blue triangle. Is that "shadows" clipped? Just trying to work out how the histogram works...and how to get the most out of an image. I realise every image is different.
Hi Glennie, first thing is get your camera and go to Menu
- Colour Space set to Adobe RGB not sRGB (shooting in sRGB is for those who cannot do any PP, very limited/basic knowledge, especially as you have 256 colours and this is purely for web or projection presentation)
- Disable High ISO Speed
- Disable High tone Priority HTP
- Disable Auto Light Optimizer (you are processing in ACR not DPP)
Drive Mode - Change from continuos to Single or a lesser frame rate if you can
* In Lightroom my adjustments - WB Temp set 5050 - you can then adjust accordingly
- Tint -8
Quote:
In ACR -
Increased exposure by 1/4 stop. * LR 1/3 stop (0.30) Reduced highlights -90. *LR (-32) Increased Shadows +26. *LR (0) *LR Whites -27 just before they clip(lighter) *LR Blacks +12 Just before they clip(lighter)
Clarity +11 (I can see by the histogram that the Shadows were clipped?) Why add more Contrast Globally to an image?
- Local adjustments to areas on the subject i.e. the slightly 'hotter/brighter' parts with the Brush, beak almost 2 stops down on Exp to bring back detail, depth & one. That's why it's easier to darken as you are not bringing noise into the image compared to an Under Exp. Very quickly removed the yellow highlight bottom RHC
Personally in this instance I prefer a less saturated BKG so the subject has more prominence. Exported to PS, Layer mask Midtone Curves & a Quarter tone curve for the brighter whites to tame them and get some tone & detail back in. Very slight in this instance some NR to BKG via LR -9 in Masking. Saved, Cropped, Exported as SRGB file, sharpened, Save for web, job done.
Note: no Black, Contrast or clarity added
Some nasty Dust bunnies. ALWAYS, when changing lens, keep the body of the camera facing/pointing DOWN to avoid crap falling in, first item you ever learn in shooting full stop!
Framing I think looks spot on, likewise size within fame, not much to crop, but enough to do a more accurate framing, FP bang on the eye, VWD! Overall I might have gone a third of a stop down just to help the whites, especially on the tip of the wing RHS as viewed. You used the top FP, ok not as accurate, but enough here. ISO/SS yes not ideal you could have gone to 800 without any real issues. If this is a set perch, move it more into the open so you have better light, but keep subject to BKG as far apart as possible.
OMG! Wonderful repost Steve. Thank you. Thank you for spending the time and effort on this. Do you ever sleep!?
I have changed all the settings in the camera as you have suggested.
I like how you have used the local adjustments in LR to get the desired result. I would have taken the image into PS. Can you tell me about the histogram? The little triangles on the top change colour from black to magenta to cyan and red when pushed around. Are they just showing up smaller sections of blown (or shadowed) for the particular slider I am working on? Sorry, my wordsmithing isn't great. Why the different colours?
I'm still working my way through the "Curves" layers. (I'm not using Levels any more)
Dust bunnies...I spent a lot of money on servicing the camera and lenses last year ready for a trip to the outback. I probably need to do it again after the trip. I do try to be extra careful when changing lenses.
I often wonder about the "outer" FPs.
This is not a set up perch, but I'm training these birds to sit on just about anything. So, yes, I think in the very near future, I will be able to move the stick around the yard, keeping in my the BG. Finding a nice perch is almost as difficult as shooting a good bird!
Hi Glennie, no problem, often it's easier to play with the RAW to see 'what's what' rather than to second guess/make assumptions. I also have tried to keep thinks simple and not to sound like a text book jargon, which hopefully is also easier to digest.
The Black triangle is a sign all is good, no clipping. If it turns red, yellow or blue it simply means there is clipping in a particular colour channel, but if solid white then there is a problem that needs to be addressed.
Levels is OK, but it really is understanding what things do, then you can choose the right tool for the job, but Curves is really cool and another very power tool, but you can do so much.
Dust bunnies are always the pain of our lives and places like Africa and India are two locations that contribute to a lot of my kit going back to Canon, although the Sensor cleaning on the 1DX isn't too bad.
Don't get hung up about the FP, the only time you may need to think is when the camera front/rear focuses and subjects are sharper in front or behind.
If you are in the Outback and it's allowed, then a nice, old weather branch would be cool, but it needs to be relative to the subject, small bird, large branch no no, but a nice log to run along for some cation could be goo too, cropping say through the log lengthwise.
You are getting to grips well, it just takes time like a lot of things.
Hi Glennie, first thing is get your camera and go to Menu
- Colour Space set to Adobe RGB not sRGB (shooting in sRGB is for those who cannot do any PP, very limited/basic knowledge, especially as you have 256 colours and this is purely for web or projection presentation)
I've had difficulties using Adobe RGB for web presentation, especially on iOS devices. The images often have a green cast to them. And reading I've done on the issue suggests that sRGB is the preferred color space on the web. Not because it's a better overall color space, but that it's so widely implemented.
I barely have time to digest all the above, but some info on color spaces is needed here. What the camera is set to means diddly-squat (i.e. nothing, in American English) when you're shooting in raw. A raw converter captures and works with the entire tonal range the sensor can capture. The color space matters when you go to PS. Set it to AdobeRGB for the largest color range that you can safely deal with. One difference between ACR and LR is that in LR you set the color space that will go to PS in the Pref's. In ACR it is in the underlined stuff under the image. If the camera is set to sRGB you can still choose a wider space (Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB) there.
So, work in Adobe RGB until you are very advanced in color management. And when you create a JPEG for the web, CONVERT TO (not Assign) sRGB. Always. Period. It's that simple. sRGB is mandatory for the web. And it's equally mandatory to be sure the color space profile is embedded (tagged). Check my tutorials in Educational Resources.
But back to the image -- very nice one, Glennie. You're getting this! The minor amount of the blue channel being blocked up as shown by the histogram is not serious. If you start seeing more, then move Blacks a little right -- or maybe Shadows is enough.
Steve is right about Highlight Tone Priority -- it is low-end junk, intended to help people who don't know how to process by making their images even worse by underexposing them in order to "save" highlight blowout. Lots of info about it on the internet but the consensus seems to be that it will trash your raw files by underexposure. Turn it off!!! Auto Lighting Optimizer will only be used if you are shooting in-camera JPEGs. (Maybe by Canon's DPP?) You can do it much better in ACR/LR.
Good advice about going to a slightly higher ISO and SS. You're excellent up to 400 and very good up to 800 if you don't underexpose.
I've had difficulties using Adobe RGB for web presentation
For Web or Digital Projection ONLY, sRGB is the Industry standard.
Jim, think of it like this:
If you use sRGB it's like painting by numbers, with VERY limited amount of colours to present your images in (in fact only 256 colours) that is what you want for web.
If you use Adobe RGB then it's like having Walt Disney with you, you have millions of colours to portray your image in. This is the WORKING space you what both to shoot in and process your images in.
The images often have a green cast to them.
Jim there is a fundamental issue here, something is not right. Are you saying your image capture have a green cast to them or that they appear to have a green cast to them. At what stage, importing them in from the camera or when you convert them, please clarify.
Keep in mind, though, when you're viewing a web image on an iOS device, the screen is not calibrated, and in addition the browser may or may not be presenting the colors correctly. And if the image is in AdobeRGB you've thrown another monkey wrench into the works. I wouldn't worry about any color cast, I'd just make sure the images are properly converted to sRGB AND the profile is embedded. That's all you can do and most of the time it's just fine.
Diane i have to disagree regarding your thoughts that Canonīs HTP is for people who do not know how to process the images .
It is not low end junk to me , it helps in some cases to overcome blown whites and it if used properly you would not even see any noise appearing when shots are taken at 10k and above . You just have to expose correctly and avoid any shadow lifting in post .... specially with the glorious LR .
Yes there is a lot of info regarding the HTP and the usage of it .... and there is a lot of junk info on it , more junk than serious pros and cons depending on where you look .
I use it very successful on my images many times and i can produce stunning results with even 20k ISO with the 1Dx , so for me no general thing not to use it . But for sure it is not a must to use it . I would rather stay away from the nasty HL or SH recovery in LR / ACR or even DPP specially when moving the slider further than 20 +/- .
But again my thoughts , do not to take this as a general rule . One can use HL /SH slider as much as he likes
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about those "nasty" Highlights and Shadows sliders in LR/ACR. Of course they create problems for people who don't use them carefully or right, on poor exposures -- anything creates problems when misused.
But I will agree with you -- heartily -- about the roughly-corresponding sliders that I find nasty in DPP, where they provide much less tonal adjustment leeway and can turn lights to gray and give very strange flat tonalities in some parts of many images.
I don't have the direct experience to contradict it (I've never needed to explore it since I use LR) so I'll accept your word that using HTP is a decent solution for users of DPP for subjects that don't need any shadow lifting.
That limits subjects and lighting quite a lot, though, especially for nature shooters.
With raw conversion in LR/ACR I almost never need to resort to the trouble of luminosity masks in PS, which can also trash an image if not expertly used. But people can use them as much as they like... I prefer to avoid the need as much as possible.
Diane agree we all work differently ... if you trust the HL /SH slider from Mr Adobe , where you have no control what Mr Adobe calls SH or HL in an image , well up to the LR users if they trust Mr adobe . I for myself trust myself when creating HL or SH adjustments with a lumo mask i have the total control what is selected ,but that is a longer story and makes no sense to discuss as just a part of personal preference .
Another point for me is ..... that Mr Adobe uses internal HTP within his wonderful LR / ACR module since 2012 engine .... again no control what Mr adobe calls a highlight and just temper it down by altering the input tone curve , without asking me , no way to avoid this other then going to the 2010 engine and work with even worst HL / SH sliders .
If you argue about that HTP stuff , you should have also mentioned that .... from my POV .
You can think about DPP what you want , your choice ... and that is ok as we all prefer different ways of working .If i can i do not touch the SH / HL in DPP ; LR ; ACR or other piece of software i rather work fully controlled and know what i am doing with mask controlled layers .
And i agree with you --- heartily --- it is easier to move sliders in DPP ; LR ; ACR etc rather than creating a very specific tonal mask and edit that tonal range .... i prefer the more complex way
The green color cast of Adobe RGB images on iOS devices was likely an issue with previous versions of iOS. I looked for a video on YouTube similar to the one I had viewed several years ago, and I couldn't find one. Even images that were converted to sRGB prior to export, or on exporting, were affected. But. No longer an issue.
The more I read about this, the less I understand. Oh, well. I suppose I'll have to accept the suggestions of those who know more than I do. And for me, that's progress. One caveat: ProPhoto RGB. Why not use a color space with an even wider gamut than Adobe RGB?
And Diane. And Steve. Thank you for taking the time to go into this.
Andreas, just one last comment: many people here are pretty new to this stuff and they need to understand that when they go into PS with an image, they have cemented limited tonal information (meaning shadow and highlight detail) into the file. No matter how many curves you apply after that, you have less tonal levels to work with in PS than in a raw file. I prefer to get them distributed the best I can with shadow and highlight adjustments (which are more powerful in LR/ACR than in DPP) before going to PS. Then I'll need to rely on tedious techniques such as luminosity masking a lot less.
LR/ACR's new sliders in Process 2012 may well be using an equivalent of HTP for highlight recovery. If I have no control of it there, then I have to assume I have no greater control of it if I use it in-camera. None of this stuff is perfect. PhaseOne gets high marks from a lot of advanced users, but I don't have time to delve into the long learning curve. Maybe someday.
Jim, when you say use ProPhoto for a color space, do you mean for a PS working space? There are pitfalls to it in that you can create colors you can't see on the best monitor or print on the best printer. You can create colors we can't even see. Adobe RGB is safer and covers a very good color gamut that is a good match to the newer wide-gamut monitors and printers. If you mean for web posted images -- it's not good there because most browsers and monitors won't handle it properly, and if it's not handled properly, colors can be awful.
Diane not the HL/SL slider apply HTP in LR /ACR , the Adobe raw engine appplies it to the image under the hood , and no way to avoid this other than changing to the 2010 engine .
And it is not " may " ..... it happens .
JUST FOR CLARIFICATION , to let all know who do not know this and who are interested.
Jim, I use ProPhoto in LRCC & PSCC and have done since it was available, although files are bigger and I see no reason not to if the option is there. I will then create sRGB images for web, or supply Adobe RGB Tiffs or CMYK files subject to the output request, or job specification and you never supply Printers or high end publications sRGB files, period.
However I would suggest you keep your Camera set to Adobe RGB, Working space set to Adobe RGB and only then convert your files to SRGB for Web presentation, but obvious Save As, not Save, otherwise you will overwrite the file, not a good idea.
As I said before, keep your Workflow simple and logical, in that way less errors creep in.
But, files in ProPhoto space are not inherently bigger. They are only bigger because of the need to work in 16 bits, which is also the exceedingly strong recommendation for Adobe RGB as well. A 16 bit file is twice the size of an 8 bit file. A raw file has a huge number of tonal levels (determined by your camera) and you want to open the files into PS in 16 bits in order to preserve as many tonal levels as possible. (It does no good to convert to 16 after opening as 8.) 16 bits contains all the tonal levels you camera captured, which is usually 14 bits, or 16,384 levels per R, G and B channel. 8 bits only has 256 levels per channel, which throws away a lot of information. The extra number of tonal levels in the histogram will minimize any posterization you might get as you add gradients to skies or the like.
Quick advice is to check out this article, cleverly titled ProPhoto or ConPhoto, and if you don't understand it, don't use ProPhoto.
Andreas, I didn't phrase that sentence carefully. What I meant to say is that Process 2012 (which I characterized as "the new sliders" because that's the obvious difference on the surface) "may well" be the "equivalent" of HTP. I don't have the inside information to split hairs over how exact the differences may be so I generalized the statement.
It was well-publicized when Process 2012 came out in LR 6 and ACR in PS CS 4 that there was highlight recovery going on behind the scenes when the image opened. Michael Frye's e-book on Landscapes in Lightroom discussed it at some length. This is the first time I have ever heard anyone object to it, but I have heard much objection to HTP in-camera. You said you didn't always use it. (And yes, there is undoubtedly bad information on both sides.)
I'll be happy to take all the highlight recovery I can get, but I'm perfectly happy with what I can get in LR/ACR and by my own exposure control. And my preference is to have access to all the tonal adjustments )especially shadow and highlight detail) I can get in the raw file, and save things like luminosity masks for a last resort rather than a first one.
I have no objection to what anyone else does, but I think less-experienced people need to have information so they can decide how to work.
Agree with you Diane , just think if this is discussed we should be open to all aspects and provide our knowledge and try to avoid things in like saying things are crap , just my view . We might say it is maybe not ideal and has negative sides (HTP) if not used properly .
It is like a useless discussion regarding Nikon / Canon etc , as both companies providing brilliant tools for us photogs , but this discussion is going on as long as i can think .. and will go on . Pretty funny sometimes ... as long as we keep a discussion on a civilized level . I think our goal should be to help each other with sharing knowledge and experience , good or bad .
So if one sticks to DPP , fine , if one sticks to LR , fine too . I would never say LR is bad in general , i just simply do not like it , i even use the ACR filter in PS to some extend .
In the end counts what make your life easier , or even better from your POV , and i agree with you for beginners LR is way easier to use with very straight forward edits . But i feel a lot of folks get stuck within LR and forget about the glorious options PS is providing, i also see the danger of getting lost in all that stuff PS provides . I also went the hard long way with learning all the stuff i know today , just on my own with hardly any practical support from anyone . a lot of hit and miss has been involved and i still learn for a great deal and hopefully i am open to new techniques all the time !!!!!!
As there are thousand ways to skin a cat ....... keep working with LR and be happy with the endgame , nothing wrong with it .
Cheers and thanks for the discussion , i hope others have liked it too and might have " learned" a bit . Regards Andreas
The Learning Curve
Overall I might have gone a third of a stop down just to help the whites, especially on the tip of the wing RHS as viewed. You used the top FP, ok not as accurate, but enough here. ISO/SS yes not ideal you could have gone to 800 without any real issues. If this is a set perch, move it more into the open so you have better light, but keep subject to BKG as far apart as possible.
but a nice log to run along for some cation could be goo too, cropping say through the log lengthwise.
Originally Posted by Steve Kaluski
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and work with even worst HL / SH sliders 
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. I think our goal should be to help each other with sharing knowledge and experience , good or bad .
