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Thread: Hanging Velvet

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    BPN Member Dennis Behn's Avatar
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    Default Hanging Velvet

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    For years I have wanted to get a shot of a mule deer removing his summer velvet from his antlers. This is no easy task as it only takes the deer a few hours to accomplish the task once he decides to do it. One day he's in, the next day he's out! This year, however, I was able to catch 2 different bucks in the process. this is an image of the first one...

    Canon 1Dx
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    320sec at f5.6, 3200 ISO

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    Hi Dennis - Great behavioural image. Some nice detail and well captured in this pose with all the straggly hanging velvet. TFS

    My understanding of this velvet is that it is a form of skin that supplies nutrients or blood to the developing 'bone' or antler. Forgive my lack of knowledge of deer in general, being an African, but can you confirm that the reason he is removing the velvet is that the antler has fully developed and is in the process of hardening or has hardened. Do you know (or can anyone tell me) what dictates that the antler has reached full maturity. I'm sorry if I digress here but I guess I am wondering how do some mule deer reach 'trophy' type criteria as opposed to others knowing that they shed antlers yearly.

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    BPN Member Dennis Behn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Walker View Post
    Hi Dennis - Great behavioural image. Some nice detail and well captured in this pose with all the straggly hanging velvet. TFS

    My understanding of this velvet is that it is a form of skin that supplies nutrients or blood to the developing 'bone' or antler. Forgive my lack of knowledge of deer in general, being an African, but can you confirm that the reason he is removing the velvet is that the antler has fully developed and is in the process of hardening or has hardened. Do you know (or can anyone tell me) what dictates that the antler has reached full maturity. I'm sorry if I digress here but I guess I am wondering how do some mule deer reach 'trophy' type criteria as opposed to others knowing that they shed antlers yearly.
    Carl, you ask some great questions. Your understanding is correct that the velvet supplies blood to the developing antler. When the antler is fully developed, the deers system cuts off the blood supply (by instinct the deer "knows" when the growing is done), and the velvet begins to dry up. Again, the deer instinctively know it's time to get rid of the velvet and so he rubs it off on branches ( I was able to get some photos of this process as well). Trophy size is a function of nutrition, genetics, and age. Each year the deer sheds his old rack and the new antlers grow larger larger than the last. Trophy size might be somewhat a matter of opinion but the 4-7 year olds are usually the bigger deer, and after that the deer will usually see some loss in antler size. These things I'm telling you are huge generalizations, there are exceptions to everything, but in the space provided here, I'm hoping this helps.

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    Lifetime Member Rachel Hollander's Avatar
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    Hi Dennis - A really interesting portrait. I'm not sure I've seen images of the velvet shedding process before. Good detail and sharpness and a nice creamy bg. It is too bad about that one branch but often that's what happens. I do see some magenta coming through so if it were mine I would reduce the magenta on the deer. Thanks for the additional information too. I had never really learned much about the process except that it happens and the antlers usually get big each year.

    It would be great if you could add your thoughts on other people's images. We recommend commenting on 3-5 other Wildlife images each time you post one of your own. It is the best way for us all to learn from each other and to become a part of the community.

    TFS,
    Rachel

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    Story Sequences Moderator and Wildlife Moderator Gabriela Plesea's Avatar
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    Hello Dennis,

    This is a very special, very unusual image...

    I enjoyed viewing this frame as well as the information provided. Before I joined BPN I used to watch Animal Planet and Discovery Channel every night, these days I find BPN Wildlife much more exciting

    There's something sweet and charming about this deer and his antlers, somehow the word "metamorphosis" comes to mind:) The velvet still attached to his crown a lovely ornament, forgive my ignorance but I must ask: does it signal a transition to adulthood?

    Some will disagree with me but I find that branch at the top quite effective, in the sense that it adds to the "crown" and the "weight" the subject is carrying around, I really like it there... I also like the soft BG, the crop/presentation as well, and I must agree with Rachel above regarding the magenta/blue cast (easy fix). Love that wet nose and you got some nice eye contact withy our subject - a very special image and I sincerely hope you have more to share with us!

    Would appreciate your thoughts on images posted by other members - a great way to learn and you will receive lots of feedback from everyone...

    Kind regards,
    Gabriela Plesea

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    BPN Member Dennis Behn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Hollander View Post
    Hi Dennis - A really interesting portrait. I'm not sure I've seen images of the velvet shedding process before. Good detail and sharpness and a nice creamy bg. It is too bad about that one branch but often that's what happens. I do see some magenta coming through so if it were mine I would reduce the magenta on the deer. Thanks for the additional information too. I had never really learned much about the process except that it happens and the antlers usually get big each year.

    It would be great if you could add your thoughts on other people's images. We recommend commenting on 3-5 other Wildlife images each time you post one of your own. It is the best way for us all to learn from each other and to become a part of the community.

    TFS,
    Rachel
    Rachel, I agree on the magenta, thanks! I actually thought about removing the tree, as I really like clean backgrounds but since the branch was actually part of the tree on which he was rubbing his velvet, I decided to leave it...

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    BPN Member Dennis Behn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriela Plesea View Post
    Hello Dennis,

    This is a very special, very unusual image...

    I enjoyed viewing this frame as well as the information provided. Before I joined BPN I used to watch Animal Planet and Discovery Channel every night, these days I find BPN Wildlife much more exciting

    There's something sweet and charming about this deer and his antlers, somehow the word "metamorphosis" comes to mind:) The velvet still attached to his crown a lovely ornament, forgive my ignorance but I must ask: does it signal a transition to adulthood?

    Some will disagree with me but I find that branch at the top quite effective, in the sense that it adds to the "crown" and the "weight" the subject is carrying around, I really like it there... I also like the soft BG, the crop/presentation as well, and I must agree with Rachel above regarding the magenta/blue cast (easy fix). Love that wet nose and you got some nice eye contact withy our subject - a very special image and I sincerely hope you have more to share with us!

    Would appreciate your thoughts on images posted by other members - a great way to learn and you will receive lots of feedback from everyone...

    Kind regards,
    Thanks Gabriela, just a quick comment concerning your question. In their 1st fall (age 3-6months), buck have "buttons" that are under the skin but represent the pedal from which antlers will grow. From 1 1/2 years of age on, the deer will grow antler.

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    BPN Member Dennis Behn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Behn View Post
    Thanks Gabriela, just a quick comment concerning your question. In their 1st fall (age 3-6months), buck have "buttons" that are under the skin but represent the pedal from which antlers will grow. From 1 1/2 years of age on, the deer will grow antler.
    Sorry, that's "pedicle", not "pedal".

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    Wildlife Moderator Steve Kaluski's Avatar
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    Hi Dennis, I quite like the image as it portrays an aspect of life a 'deer' goes through, it looks painful with the redness of the antlers, but it's just hair and likened to us growing our nails. The bedraggled look is appealing and I don't think something like this has been posted here before, so well done. I agree with you that having a 'clean' BKG is always ideal, however it's sometimes hard or impractical, then we need to take steps either to change our position, accept it, or think if our ethics will allow some 'manipulation' later in PP. Personally I find the intersection of the branch distracting and if the opportunity allowed, moving to your right a fraction may have offered a better composition????

    Taking the image as it stands I think there is a lot more you can extract from the original capture, plus adding some more sharpening will help too. Addressing the Purple & Magenta will help remove the slight bias in the overall image, likewise some blue in the nose. Getting some more 'tonal depth' into the body gives more form and depth, plus I might just back off a little on the Contrast if you added any???? If you can, please advise if the image is cropped or FF as this does have some baring to the final image.

    Hope this helps and nice to see you interacting in thread too, keep posting, but always have fun.

    BTW If there is a specific question you have either to an image or your own, please ask it irrespective if it's a silly one, we all have been there and occasionally ask them too.

    TFS
    Steve

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    Lovely head on shot. I have always wondered if this is actually painful or a relief for the deer (similar to scratching with a ruler under a plaster cast)

    The RP has taken care of the magenta cast and improved an already good image. I had not noticed it that much until i compared it to Steve's RP.

    I also think the image would be improved without the branch from the top but not a deal breaker. Lovely creamy BG too

    TFS

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    BPN Member Andreas Liedmann's Avatar
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    Hi Dennis a nice capture of this Deer with the partly shaved off velvet .I like the overall comp and the creamy BG and the subject standing out nicely .The twigs are not ideal ...... but they have been there .
    Steve has covered the color issues very well with his RP ..... as usual .

    TFS Andreas

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    Like this capture. I know how tough it is to time this right!

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    Thank you so much for all the info, Dennis

    I see you have a lovely RP from Mr. Kaluski, magenta cast removed and a tad more sharpening as well as some good advice, keep those lovely images coming and hope you enjoy it here in the Wildlife Forum, I certainly look forward to more from you

    Kind regards,
    Gabriela Plesea

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    I'm late to this one, Dennis. Loved the discussion and clarification on the velvet for us non-deer-photographers (Africans) .
    The colours also struck me upfront, I think Steve sorted that out nicely in his repost.
    Please do share some images of him rubbing it off too?
    Morkel Erasmus

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    Hi Dennis, A beautiful Portrait , loved Steves repost colors look much natural now and thank you for all the information regarding the antler shedding process . and the only glitch in the image is the the branch but that is something we cant always manage. Happy posting.

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    BPN Member Dennis Behn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Kaluski View Post
    Hi Dennis, I quite like the image as it portrays an aspect of life a 'deer' goes through, it looks painful with the redness of the antlers, but it's just hair and likened to us growing our nails. The bedraggled look is appealing and I don't think something like this has been posted here before, so well done. I agree with you that having a 'clean' BKG is always ideal, however it's sometimes hard or impractical, then we need to take steps either to change our position, accept it, or think if our ethics will allow some 'manipulation' later in PP. Personally I find the intersection of the branch distracting and if the opportunity allowed, moving to your right a fraction may have offered a better composition????

    Taking the image as it stands I think there is a lot more you can extract from the original capture, plus adding some more sharpening will help too. Addressing the Purple & Magenta will help remove the slight bias in the overall image, likewise some blue in the nose. Getting some more 'tonal depth' into the body gives more form and depth, plus I might just back off a little on the Contrast if you added any???? If you can, please advise if the image is cropped or FF as this does have some baring to the final image.

    Hope this helps and nice to see you interacting in thread too, keep posting, but always have fun.

    BTW If there is a specific question you have either to an image or your own, please ask it irrespective if it's a silly one, we all have been there and occasionally ask them too.

    TFS
    Steve
    Steve, thanks so much for your comment and the great RP. I like your version a lot! I did crop up from the bottom. Question, do you tend to sharpen more for your posting here, with the smaller files?? The reason I ask is that the image looked more in focus to me on my computer, before I downsized it to upload. I was actually disappointed in my image when I uploaded it, but your focus looks great... I think I'm wondering if I need to check the focus after making the image smaller??? Thanks again for you comments and help. Dennis

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    Wildlife Moderator Steve Kaluski's Avatar
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    Question, do you tend to sharpen more for your posting here, with the smaller files??
    Hi Dennis, my caveat is: that what I do works for me, others may have a different take, but there are IMHO, some fundamental basics that are cross platform.

    Basically if the image has the focus in the right spot, i.e. as per here, between the eyes at the top of the bridge of the nose, (hope I'm clear) and you have the correct DoF, then all is well, but the ultimate question is, is the original sharp? If it's not, BIN, as no matter what you try and do, with even the best software, it is still going to be soft!

    Personally I will/may do some 'pre sharpening' (personal choice), after I have made all the require steps in LR (again my preferred choice, you may choose another RAW converter), but before I export to PS, there I will do some more 'refined' adjustments depending on what is required for that image, as IMHO no two images are the same. Once the file is 'finalised' I will crop to the final output size, but ALWAYS retain the master at full res for future outputs, so I am cropping from a full 16bit tiff. Once resized I will flatten, duplicate and sharpen that, apply a layer mask etc. However, I now tend to adopt another route that suits my own Workflow. Also, be clear in DPI & PPI.

    There have been so many threads written on this subject, and I do think understanding what 'sharpening' really means will put you in good stead, but I would say, apply any sharpening in small increments. IMHO no screen monitor will display the 'true' nature of sharpening, only when you print the file will you actually see the end result, and I am using that in very loose terms. Also, avoid heavy cropping and what I term pixel bashing, there are some folk who crop so much you can clearly see the IQ vanishes.

    Dennis, if you want more help drop me a PM, there are more people on here that are better than me, all I'm concerned from my perspective is, if is sharp when printed, or meets their required IQ specifications for Agencies then that's fine, on screen if in looks less or more I'm less crucial, but within reason LOL.

    Ultimately, if I post on four websites with differing sizes, the same sharpening is applied to ALL four images at FINAL output size.

    Hope this helps.

    Steve

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    BPN Member Dennis Behn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Kaluski View Post
    Hi Dennis, my caveat is: that what I do works for me, others may have a different take, but there are IMHO, some fundamental basics that are cross platform.

    Basically if the image has the focus in the right spot, i.e. as per here, between the eyes at the top of the bridge of the nose, (hope I'm clear) and you have the correct DoF, then all is well, but the ultimate question is, is the original sharp? If it's not, BIN, as no matter what you try and do, with even the best software, it is still going to be soft!

    Personally I will/may do some 'pre sharpening' (personal choice), after I have made all the require steps in LR (again my preferred choice, you may choose another RAW converter), but before I export to PS, there I will do some more 'refined' adjustments depending on what is required for that image, as IMHO no two images are the same. Once the file is 'finalised' I will crop to the final output size, but ALWAYS retain the master at full res for future outputs, so I am cropping from a full 16bit tiff. Once resized I will flatten, duplicate and sharpen that, apply a layer mask etc. However, I now tend to adopt another route that suits my own Workflow. Also, be clear in DPI & PPI.

    There have been so many threads written on this subject, and I do think understanding what 'sharpening' really means will put you in good stead, but I would say, apply any sharpening in small increments. IMHO no screen monitor will display the 'true' nature of sharpening, only when you print the file will you actually see the end result, and I am using that in very loose terms. Also, avoid heavy cropping and what I term pixel bashing, there are some folk who crop so much you can clearly see the IQ vanishes.

    Dennis, if you want more help drop me a PM, there are more people on here that are better than me, all I'm concerned from my perspective is, if is sharp when printed, or meets their required IQ specifications for Agencies then that's fine, on screen if in looks less or more I'm less crucial, but within reason LOL.

    Ultimately, if I post on four websites with differing sizes, the same sharpening is applied to ALL four images at F

    Hope this helps.

    Steve
    Steve, helps a lot!! I was really disappointed in the prairie dog shot I sent in as well, because it is very, very sharp but my upload didn't turn out that way. Think I get it now, we shall see what the next one looks like... thanks again!!

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    Wildlife Moderator Steve Kaluski's Avatar
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    Will take a look at your next posting and come back to you.

    Just remember, if you have gleaned or learnt something from any of the feedback given, it's a positive step, never a negative one, but just enjoy.

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