Noise

[Fred Woodman]

I am using Lightroom 5 and I am shooting both a Canon 5D mark 111 and 1D iv i seem to be able to handle noise up to around 800 ISO , beyond that I can't seem to be able to clean it up like many of the pictures i see here. I now have a 500 f4 lens series 1. and I seem to be always needing ISO of 800 and above to get the Shutter speeds and Apertures I need. Any pointers would be much appreciated. Thx.

[Diane Miller]

Noise is really impossible to repair once it is "captured" in a file. Some raw converters will claim to "remove"or "minimize" it, but when you look closely it is always at the expense of detail. It's something like a basic law of physics.

ISO 800 is not bad with the 5D3, and 1600 is getting on very thin ice. ISO 100 is the best answer -- not very practical, though. The best way to minimize noise is "expose to the right" and lower exposure in post. If that's a new idea, there is a lot on the internet.

But remember -- the pictures you see here are small JPEGs. They don't compare to looking at a full-res file at 100%. Flaws can be hidden.

[Fred Woodman]

Thanks Diane, i understand you completely but exposing to the right means I have to find another stop of light. So I guess Im going to have to learn to shoot smarter, with more open apertures ( less DOF) better holding technique to reduce shutter speeds. And in more light. In Lightroom 5 is there anything I could be missing that I should or should not be doing in the Develop Module.?

[arash_hazeghi]

I am using Lightroom 5 and I am shooting both a Canon 5D mark 111 and 1D iv i seem to be able to handle noise up to around 800 ISO , beyond that I can't seem to be able to clean it up like many of the pictures i see here. I now have a 500 f4 lens series 1. and I seem to be always needing ISO of 800 and above to get the Shutter speeds and Apertures I need. Any pointers would be much appreciated. Thx.

I suspect your problem is exposure, image processing or both. with correct exposure, proper RAW conversion and some (mild) NR you should get very clean results with the 5D3 up to ISO 3200, that will look great even when printed large and examined closely.

[Diane Miller]

LR has some sophisticated NR capability, but like any of the others (including DPP) there is a limit beyond which you'll get a flat, plastic look. (A web search will give info on how to use it.) Anything that increases contrast will make noise more obvious, and lightening shadows will do the same. Lightening with Exposure seems to bring up less noise than using the Shadows slider. (Then bring Highlights back down with that slider.)

Sharpening will bring up noise, and using some of the Nik and Topaz (and like) plugins in PS to alter tonal relationships will often do the same. I like Nik's Dfine and Neat Image for noise reduction, often used on only parts of the image such as an out of focus background.

There is indeed a small sweet spot in shooting specs. Two things that will help allow a lower ISO and more exposure are a tripod and judicious fill flash (it will fill shadows much more than it increases highlight exposure). Fill flash lets you shoot in higher contrast light and minimize some of the harsh look. A Better Beamer will extend flash range.

[arash_hazeghi]

LR is quite poor when it comes to rendering high ISO files from Canon bodies. I recommend you check out Artie's guides to learn more about how to process your images and get a quality output.

I wouldn't trade shutter speed for ISO, if your photo is soft it will be difficult to fix, whereas noise is easy to remove if RAW is sharp. If the RAW is not tack sharp image is often a delete.

[Fred Woodman]

Thanks again, I have a Better Beamer and probably I should be using it more, I am always doing my best to expose to the right and and I try not to brighten up anything thats in the shadows, I seem to be able to clean up pretty good up to about 800 ISO but I find that far to often I have to be at or above 800 when shooting the 500 f4, is i want to be getting SS I feel i need i.e. 1/500 and a little higher, flying depending on bird 1/1000 or more. ? Having said that I have been shooting and Fstops in the 5.6, 6.3, 7.1 range for more DOF.!! This has led me to try and find and better workflow with respect to Noise reduction.

[Don Lacy]

Hi Fred, Their has to be something wrong in your workflow or in your field technique or both. First off in the field if shooting the 500 an aperture of f/5.6 will give you enough DOF for most subjects depending on their distance to you the farther away the more DOF you gain from a given f stop, so unless you are close to the minimum focusing of the lens their is really no need to shot at a higher aperture for most situations. So if your shooting in bright light at ISO 800 your shutter speed with an aperture of 5.6 will be around 3200 at ISO 400 it will be around 1600, earlier in the morning or later in the day it will drop to about 1600 and 800, and around sunrise and sunset it will drop even more now these are rough estimates but will be pretty close. So first make sure you are not using an aperture you do not need to keep your ISO as low as possible. Now when processing their are some things you can do to minimize noise first get the exposure right in camera not ETTR but right for the subject you really do not want be adding exposure in post. Second at no time should you ever sharpen OOF areas or areas of solid color all you are doing is sharpening the noise I believe LR allows to apply sharpening with a mask if not most plugins do. If you still need to reduce noise again apply the NR on the BG and solid areas of color only unless the noise is really evident on the subject. This is just a basic outline if you want send me the Raw file of one of the images you are having trouble with and I will see what I can do with it. PM me and I will send you my email address.

[Fred Woodman]

Thx Don, I have no doubt that its somewhere in my workflow and/or shooting technique, unfortunately I am an early riser and tend to be shooting very early in the day and of course this time of year, light is slow coming and peaks out quick. I am pleased with my progress but when I see some of the work here I feel pushed to make my work better. I still have a ways to go.

[Don Lacy]

Thats the best time of the day to shoot I am usually heading home three hours after sunrise just be conscious of your aperture and do not stop down if you do not need it. Check the settings on the avian and wildlife forums you will find the majority of the image were shot at f/5.6

[Fred Woodman]

I am always aware of my ISO but I often find that its a struggle to get the ISO down below 800 with my 500 f4, and maybe I have to trust stabilization more, I can tell you I can't get the 3 and 4 stops that they claim Stabilization gets you.if I shoot my 500 f4 at 1/60, 1/125 or even 1/250 I'm going to see seeing a lot of soft shots. I am beginning to believe some days its best just to leave the camera home as the conditions aren't there. But I will steal back on f-stops a bit more. And again thats for the pointers, its much appreciated. This site has been a great help. ( and cost me a lot of money lol)

[Don Lacy]

Are you hand holding or using a tripod you can get the 1/60 and 1/125 images sharp if shot from tripod using proper technique if hand holding you need about 1/500 to 1/1000 depending on your technique. If you are not shooting BIF then I would recommend a tripod.

[John Guastella]

will make noise more obvious...

...if using a Canon camera.

The D810 and D750 give excellent results when the shadows are lifted. Many examples of this on the web.

Not trying to start a Canon vs. Nikon flame war (I use Canon gear), but the blanket statement quoted above does not apply to all cameras.

John

[Fred Woodman]

I shoot off both but mostly a tripod if I can, for my BIF it is often hand held.

[Don Lacy]

...if using a Canon camera.

The D810 and D750 give excellent results when the shadows are lifted. Many examples of this on the web.

Not trying to start a Canon vs. Nikon flame war (I use Canon gear), but the blanket statement quoted above does not apply to all cameras.
John

At the ISO Fred is shooting at their is no to little advantage to using a Exmor sensor the DR advantage is only at base ISO . Not trying to start a flame war but facts matter, as i am finding out elsewhere, you will not find anyone who claims there is a DR advantage at higher ISO it is one of the reasons it is hardly mention here as most of us are shooting at 400 to 1600 ISO. you can see what I am talking about here there is less then a stop advantage at higher ISO http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compa...7100___977_865. Also there is still a penalty to pushing the shadows in the example used in DPR review of the 7DII i find the d7000 shadows to be unacceptable for my use even if they are better then the Canons. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canon-eos-7d-mark-ii/13. Not saying the extra DR is not nice but I will mostly stand by my blanket statement that under exposing and fixing it later in post is still accurate just with some cameras you pay less of a penalty, if want the best file possible expose it properly. Another reason a Nikon or Sony camera would not help in Fred's situation is he is not shooting in high contrast light in fact it is the opposite thats why he needs the higher ISO even with the Canon sensor in post on most subjects you would be moving the black point higher decreasing DR to give the blacks more visual punch.

[Don Lacy]

I shoot off both but mostly a tripod if I can, for my BIF it is often hand held.

Here are some links to proper long lens technique
http://www.moosepeterson.com/techtips/longlens.html
http://www.naturephotographers.net/ejp0801-1.html

[Fred Woodman]

I feel I am doing a decent job in exposing my shots properly, I use both Manual and Av with compensation, for the most part I seem to do better using Av. My method is pretty simple and if anyone can offer a suggestion to do it better let me know. But normally Ill just use something neutral for a test shot maybe grass or sand of the shade of a tree, I kind of know know some degree of compensation depending on what I hope to be shooting. I usually expose til my blinkies start, the turn it back in Post, most times I am more likely to overexpose than under, but back grounds can give me the creeps especially in the mornings early and birds ( mostly waterfowl of shore birds) tend to drop into shadows, Ill watch my histogram and try and adjust as best i can. I admit I have been cheating on f-stop, closing down for more DOF as I find wide open too often Ill get the focus right, but the sharpness will be in the wrong spot, a tail , foot or something. so my born is to set ISO at 800 SS 1000 or 1250 maybe more depending on what Im looking for, the try and get as closed as I can to offset poor tracking. But often iso 800 doesn't cut it so its up to 1600 or in between if I can hold SS. Thanks for the technique links Im headed over to read them now.

[Diane Miller]

If you're getting the focus right (in the right spot) and then finding the focus point is in a different plane, you need to look at autofocus microadjustment. Although there can be good reasons for going to a larger DOF, it won't give you enough depth to counter focus errors, whether they be from the AF system or user error. Either of your bodies with the 500 should give excellent focus, but individual copies of equipment can be off. So can ways to try to check AF adjustment.

Artie's blog today repeated an older post on M mode:
http://www.birdsasart-blog.com/2014/...n-manual-mode/

[Fred Woodman]

Thanks Diane, a great read, I believe my way of determining the correct exposure is about the same. Most times I find myself in Av mode and dialling compensation. I just find it quicker. I understand that I should be exposing to the right, and for the most part I do , when Im not right Im adjusting to get there. Of course mostly this means increasing ISO to maintain SS , I will begin to open up a little more to 5.6. That will get me a 1/3 or 2/3 stops.But often that will have me at over 800 and up to 1600. But I am still wondering if theres anything I am missing in terms of Post Noise correction in LR 5 ? be that I should be using plugin ( Nik, or Noise Ninja). I do have photoshop cc but at this point I am too intimidated by it to begin using it. lol

[Diane Miller]

After doing what you can in LR/ACR, some of the NR plugins are great, and if needed you can (in PS) mask only the areas that need NR, such as plain BGs. Sometimes processing brings out noise that wasn't apparent in a minimally processed file.

Do start learning about PS -- it round-trips beautifully with LR. (Open a file in PS from LR and when you save it, it will be right back in the same filmstrip with the raw file.) You can do things in PS that you can't do in raw converters. You only need to learn about 5% of it. Check out the reply I just did in Landscape on the light beam in Antelope Canyon post.

[Fred Woodman]

Thx Diane, An awesome improvement on that Picture of the light beam. And its these types of results that have me asking question about work flow and NR. I am getting some nice out of camera shots, and those that are of very sound IQ do require very little work. But in my lower light , higher ISO and am not getting the balance of detail and NR that I see here. I know of several reasons, one of the big ones being my workflow patience, I have to slow down and use more thought instead of just a production like approach to,Crop, Set WB, Contrast, White Point, Black point, Shadows , Highlights .etc. But theres something I am missing in the detail panels. Oh BTW , do you know how intimidating an explanation of your workflow of that ray of light in Antelope Canyon, can be to a newbie. lol. Having said that I now understand what your doing, I just don't know how to do it. But PS is on my bucket list to begin learning this winter. Again thx everyone for your patience and help.

[Diane Miller]

Initial IQ at capture is very important. Miraculous as the tools are these days there is no way to significantly improve the quality of a high ISO and sharp focus and high-enough shutter speed. That gets into camera and lens quality issues, also. Post processing is also important but is limited by what we start with. It's all a learning curve....