Kildeer

[Kerry Perkins]

Still enjoying Topaz Impression and Flypaper textures.

[Dennis Bishop]

I like the kildeer, its reflection, and your use of the texture. My inclination would be to add some canvas on the left and remove some from the bottom to put the bird and its reflection off-center. It gives some more room in front of the kildeer, too.

[Michael Gerald-Yamasaki]

Kerry,

Greetings. I like the painterly look, the warm color and how the eye pulls one in. I think I would prefer a bit more detail in the reflection and a crop off the bottom (as much as half way between the signature & the reflection). The balance between detail and painterly look in the subject is just about perfect. Thanks for posting.

Just saw Dennis's repost... I like the composition (though there is a horizontal line through the front of the reflection that I would evict).

Cheers,

-Michael-

[Jackie Schuknecht]

Lovely earth tone palette, and beautiful light on the bird. Was this done in-camera or vignetting? I must say I am more partial to the bird off-center. Nice to see you posting again!

[Kerry Perkins]

Thanks for the comments, but I didn't want a square image. Centering is virtually a non-issue with portrait mode images. I don't think the empty space on the left does a thing for the image, but that's just me I guess.

Jackie, I applied a slight vignette to the image.

[Kerry Perkins]

Well, that sounded a bit more edgy than I intended... I really wanted this image to be about the vertical nature of the bird and its reflection, so I don't want the eye wandering off horizontally. There is no implied sense of motion, as if the bird were wading, so I don't see the need to add negative space as if it were to be occupied. And since the bird and the reflection take up so much space vertically, I don't see much need to move it over just for the sake of avoiding centering. I do agree with Michael's crop from the bottom, that would probably help ground the image. I liked the symmetry of the ripple rings around the bird with the legs being in the center. So those were my thoughts, which I failed to provide in my reply. I think the discussion is good. I have often gotten frustrated here by the feeling that we tend to want to pull images back into the box a bit. What do you think? Our forum description header says "Not every image adheres to the so called "rules" of traditional photography. This forum is dedicated to breaking out of the box of conformity."

[Michael Gerald-Yamasaki]

Kerry,

Good point about portraiture... Looking at them again the OP with a crop from the bottom would work best to my eye. No issue sticking to your OP, but appreciate your explanation.

Cheers,

-Michael-

[Dennis Bishop]

Thanks for the Part 2. I've seen and liked a number of tightly-cropped images, here.

[Dave Mills]

"I have often gotten frustrated here by the feeling that we tend to want to pull images back into the box a bit. What do you think? Our forum description header says "Not every image adheres to the so called "rules" of traditional photography."
Hi Kerry,
I feel there are no rules in photography but there are guidelines. Generally, if you follow the guidelines one would become a better photographer overall. It certainly doesn't mean one cannot break the guidelines now and then. If one looks at images in OOTB and cannot give a critique because its OOTB then it might as well be a cheering section.
Another point is just because it's OOTB doesn't mean the image works well and should be accepted anyway. IMO there were some valid critiques offered on your image. But...thats my opinion...

[Nancy Bell]

I'm late to the discussion, and everyone has good, informative comments. Always interesting to read how a particular image strikes individual viewers, and if that agrees or not with the artist. These forums are a unique opportunity to hear how others think of our posted images, as well as having the artist comment. Great learning for all. My favorite thought along these lines is from my young grandson viewing a Jackson Pollock image; "he's messy and does not color within the lines!" I think this astonished my grandson since his teachers would always say, stand within the lines!
For me the image has a lovely earthy palette, a gentle-on-the-eyes softness with a subtle glow on the killdeer. All work well together. I can see this framed in gold.

[Kerry Perkins]

Thanks for your thoughts! I'm not suggesting that we break the "rules" just for the sake of being different, I'm just wondering if people can really look at an image without judging it based upon some "rules" that really don't have much support in the world of art or even master photography. I honestly don't know where the "rule of thirds" came from, but great artists and photographers throughout history have not used this as even a guideline. This has bothered me for some time here, and I guess I'm being over-sensitive and thinking that there is more to a simple suggestion than just that, but I do hope that we are not developing a mindset that is too rigid in its evaluation of an image, basing our opinions on whether features fall on some tic-tac-toe grid or not. Some images do benefit from this concept, but in my opinion it is one of the most overused and abused ideas of composition and I've seen many images that would have worked better for me if they had not been shoe-horned into a grid. If you use the crop tool in either Lightroom or Photoshop and press the "O" key, you will see that there are several other useful aids that can help with composition. I personally like to look at the "diagonal method" first, it is worth a little bit of Google search to see how this one works.

Dave, I am not suggesting that you can't critique an image in OOTB, I'm just wishing that the critique was about the artistic interpretation of both the artist and the observer and concentrated on the out-of-the-boxness, and not about whether the image conforms to some guidelines (was the Mona Lisa too centered?). Actually, I would have a better relationship with the "thirds" thing if were called the "guideline of thirds". I don't know how it got to be known as a "rule". This is a discussion I've wanted to start for several years, but as a moderator I felt that I was not empowered to be opinionated. I guess I should have learned from some of the other forums... If you see every image as nine rectangles then you have added eight more boxes to be in. Ok, that's all of my opinions and enough for one day!

P.S. - I'm not suggesting that I'm some great artist who should have dispensation to break all the rules, just wishing that we were a little more loose in our interpretation of technical aspects. We're all accomplished photographers here, I think we should stretch out a bit. The way I see it, you need to understand the "guidelines" as a photographer so you can break them creatively as an artist. When I was a little kid, I always colored within the lines, painstakingly ensuring that not one molecule of Crayon got outside the lines. I couldn't help but notice though, that the kids who were just scribbling away seemed to have more fun.

[Dave Mills]

"Dave, I am not suggesting that you can't critique an image in OOTB, I'm just wishing that the critique was about the artistic interpretation of both the artist and the observer and concentrated on the out-of-the-boxness, and not about whether the image conforms to some guidelines"
As a photo competition judge I have wrestled with creative competitions(OOTB) and found it to be quite subjective. First,do I like it or not..trying to be as objective as possible.
Second, what are my reasons for not liking it or liking it. There can be many reasons eitherway but at times I fall back on guidelines to validate my opinion. Someone can break the guidelines and it works while others do not.( I do state that point when judging and do not want to be overly rigid)
I find a judge is a success when they passe on helpful advice during their critiques and the maker leaves the evening learning something. To me scoring is secondary and fleeting.

[Kerry Perkins]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Dave. It does ultimately come down to opinions and the manner in which they are derived. I do appreciate all the feedback that is given here, and from which I have learned much. I was recently a contestant in a local National Park photo contest, one in which I have been a participant for several years (five I think). Every year I have been awarded fist place in at least one of the categories, almost always in the "animals" category, and last year I got best in show. This year I only got a third place in that category and was shut out in the other category I entered (degrees of light). Looking at the winners I could not figure out why they were better, but there you have it! This thread has been cathartic. Over the six years I've been here, I have respected nearly every opinion I've ever read here (the ones that I didn't were in a different forum) and I'm not suggesting that this has changed.

Dennis, I didn't mean to suggest that your repost was not a good idea, it just wasn't what I had in mind and that started me thinking about the other things I've said in this thread. I've reworked other members' photos in ETL and had them tell me "uh, great, but I liked it the way it was..." I appreciate the fact that you took time to rework it. I could make note cards and use both versions!

[Kerry Perkins]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Dave. It does ultimately come down to opinions and the manner in which they are derived. I do appreciate all the feedback that is given here, and from which I have learned much. I was recently a contestant in a local National Park photo contest, one in which I have been a participant for several years (five I think). Every year I have been awarded fist place in at least one of the categories, almost always in the "animals" category, and last year I got best in show. This year I only got a third place in that category and was shut out in the other category I entered (degrees of light). Looking at the winners I could not figure out why they were better, but there you have it! This thread has been cathartic. Over the six years I've been here, I have respected nearly every opinion I've ever read here (the ones that I didn't were in a different forum) and I'm not suggesting that this has changed.

Dennis, I didn't mean to suggest that your repost was not a good idea, it just wasn't what I had in mind and that started me thinking about the other things I've said in this thread. I've reworked other members' photos in ETL and had them tell me "uh, great, but I liked it the way it was..." I appreciate the fact that you took time to rework it. I could make note cards and use both versions!

[Dennis Bishop]

No problem, Kerry. Art is subjective for sure, and what we see -- when we take a photo, process an image, or look at one -- is affected by the things we bring with us. A good bit of the value, here, when people make comments on our work is to learn how they react to it. The same applies when we're doing the commenting.

[Anita Bower]

I like the colors of the OP, and how the bird fits into the environment. The reflection is nice. The red eye stands out and draws my attention. I think a bit of a crop off the bottom would ground it. There is a line at the top and right of the bird's head where there is a distinct change from darks to lights that bothers me a bit. I think making a more distinct separation from the bird's head might help.
As to discussing rules, breaking rules, etc., it seems perfectly OK to suggest a change as well as for the photographer to reject the change.

[Diane Miller]

I'm way late here, and jut wanted to say that it's so nice to see some substantive discussion and defense of thoughts and feelings about an image. So much better than "Nice image!" The folks in this forum deal with artistic aspects, which gives them a unique viewpoint -- or collection of viewpoints.

In some of the other forums, when someone points out a technical flaw in an image (something whose existence shouldn't be a matter of opinion) there is always a small chorus, often starting with the maker, of "I liked it just like it was" with no reason given. That's certainly their right, but it makes you question their artistic sensibility, and whether they are brown-nosing the poster.

[Cheryl Slechta]

Hi, folks, I know I'm VERY late to this thread but I've wrestled with the critique aspect of OOTB images for quite awhile. The technical aspects are fairly easy to critique and issues that involve cleaning up spots, etc. are easy. I have a harder time with things like horizons because I'm not sure that all images have to (or need to) be square to the world But then comes the hard part (at least for me). I grew up probably about the same time that Kerry did and rules have always bothered me - the 60's, flower children, etc. Art itself is so subjective and I can just imagine what the critics said about the Impressionist painters of that era. And reading Camera Work by Alfred Stieglitz is about the same discussion - what is art, is photography art, what makes a photograph artistic, etc. So obviously this discussion has been around probably since the beginning of time. I'm not even sure I'm comfortable trying to discuss what the meaning (or intended meaning) of an image is supposed to be and sometimes I have a hard time verbalizing the meaning of my own images. I've never had much patience with critiques that read so much into the inner meaning of a book or painting because I think art is a very personal endeavor that is produced from the heart. And in the end you either like it or you don't - your own work or someone else's and I'm not sure that you always know exactly why. So, it does make it hard to comment on OOTB images because it's not just about the technical aspects of the image (although obviously you need to start with a good image) - it's about the impact that the image has on you, the viewer. So, that didn't help at all, did it Obviously, I'm wrestling with this. I have the same problem with photo club contests, and I've always liked David duChemin's quote that "Photography is an art, not a contest" which pretty well sums up my thoughts above.

[Michael Gerald-Yamasaki]

Cheryl,

Thanks for your post. A broader discussion of the art of critiquing particularly as it pertains to OOTB might be worthwhile as maybe a sticky. This post is off the original topic.

There was a time some years ago that most of the responses in OOTB were attaboys and one measured how successful an image was by how many you got ;-). I think it is difficult to comment on OOTB images because OOTB might mean for some that the images are outside the bounds of normal criticism and who wants to go stepping on someone else's vision? Too, it's hard sometimes not to defend a personal vision, maybe they aren't seeing it just so (and maybe if I explain...).

Aside from the personal vision in creating an image, we all come with our own biases in what we see. I, for instance, prefer an image where the techniques are visually an afterthought. Because of this it took a long time for me to warm up to textures. It would be, mmm, in poor taste to have commented with frequency that I didn't particularly care for the texture. But now that I've come to appreciate textures, it's a little easier to say the texture in the upper right seems to grab my attention a bit too much. ;-)

For me (and what I foist on others through my comments), I like to hear what people think is good but not the gratuitous good. And I like to hear what people think is bad but not the biased or the boxed (for OOTB images). I've learned to my mind a tremendous amount from OOTB comments... always thankful for the honest response.

Cheers,

-Michael-

[Diane Miller]

I think a lot of valid critique, for any style, can be based on factors that influence the eye, such as composition, tonal issues, distracting areas, etc., independently of whether one really "appreciates" the image or not. We often don't see technical issues in our own images. Then if that is followed by an honest comment on whether (and why) the image really grabs you or not, there is some value to everyone. We all know not everyone will like the same thing.

It's far too easy to get lulled into making everything so generic that everyone will appreciate it. OOTB is great for getting away from that!

I don't do enough OOTB and definitely need to do more. It's a wonderful playground. I'm always happy to hear any point of view, and I think back-and-forth discussion is so valuable.

[Anita Bower]

I've re-read this discussion. Thanks to all who have contributed to it. Although there is no right answer, it is good to know the thought of others.

My most difficult challenge in critiquing here is photos that I don't particularly like. I'm far too quick to see the faults. Having to write a critique forces me to see the strengths. (This is good practice for life in general.) But, I also want to point out a few things that might help the photograph to improve.

Another challenge are abstract images. I'm learning to appreciate them, but usually feel out of my depth. Someone suggested writing how I feel about the image, and that is helping.

When I post an image I hope to get comments on what might improve it, as well as what is working, and how the image impacts the viewer.