Canon DPP4 - observations - any feedback?

[Jonathan Ashton]

I am still continuing with DPP4 but I must admit I find Adobe ACR so much more obvious and visually intuitive. Fixing the Highlights in DPP can be done in a variety of ways but knowing which is likely to be the most logical or route leading to highest "quality" is not always so. The Exposure slider affects everything, the Highlights sometimes does not fix the Highlights fully, what I have found is that the Contrast slider is invaluable- just one click often does the trick, this may be in the initial processing window or in the curves panel, it often fixes the Highlights and Shadows simultaneously.
I am still unclear how to ensure the blacks are correctly exposed, I find the Histogram pretty useless really because if I adjust it to show maximum exposure range or even near there the Highlights and Blacks start to flash. I have resorted to looking at the curves to check the exposure range there.
I am at last in agreement over noise, I recently took some images at ISO 5000 and they were a full stop under exposed but after using DPP I was very impressed with the finished product. I also get the impression there is an element of automation in the noise reduction settings, the values appear to change of their own volition with differing ISO settings.
It would also be nice if the digital lens correction could be made to apply automatically - perhaps it can but I have not discovered how to achieve this.
Any comments or views would be gratefully received.

[Andreas Liedmann]

Hi Jonathan ,
actually i do not understand your problems with DPP 4.0 , i do find it great , but that is just personal.I agree about more options in ACR available , but IQ is way better in DPP , specially colors.Again all subjective and personal taste.
As i do most of my edits in PS i can very much live with the limited options in DPP .
I do send a base file into PS .

For illustration the original capture from a 1Dx file i took recently .
Techs . 1Dx ; Ef 500 IS L ; Tripod
F 8 ; 1/ 1000 sec ; ISO 20000 yes , 20000 !!! ; man exposure + 1,3 stops

out of cam , the edited version will follow in second post .

Cheers Andreas

[Andreas Liedmann]

It is me again with the 50 % crop edit version

Cheers Andreas

[Giovanni Frescura]

It is right
but why is no possible have adjustement for old lens ? (as Canon 500 f.4 is and 300 is f.2,8)
How is possible use this program if no ossible use it with all normal lens?

[Jonathan Ashton]

Andreas, I appreciate the product is capable of delivering good results in the right hands - the image looks fine, but I still have that elementary question what is the most "correct" way of ensuring the blacks are sufficiently black? I just find it incredible that a new product is launched and Canon have not produced a tutorial on the new features, it just doesn't make sense to me.
Gionanni, This is a slightly wry comment but the old 500mm and 300mm were pretty good lenses there probably isn't a great deal to correct!

[Andreas Liedmann]

Jonathan i actually do not understand what you mean , maybe because my mother language is german .
So you want to know how to set the black point ? right ?

The official tutorials for old DPP , i do find them ok , but nothing special.
Agree with you about the support of new DPP 4.0 , not good at all , they just leave us alone with just saying why is new.

There is manual for win floating around , if you wish i can send you a copy .

Cheers Andreas

[Jonathan Ashton]

Andreas say for example you were using Adobe ACR, the first thing to check would be the whites/highlights then as you go won the list of sliders you come to the blacks, these can be made darker by sliding the slider to the right.
In DPP there is the overall Brightness slider which I think is in fact Exposure - I may be wrong!
In DPP the Gamma adjustment you can grab the top or side bars and pull them in. The one on the left when dragged to the right does in fact make the blacks darker now is this good or bad practice?
The Shadow slider is as the name suggests a means of increasing or decreasing the shadows but this is not the same as adjusting the blacks.
The other point I made is that just looking at the histogram is misleading because the Highlights and Blacks are blown well before the points on the histogram are near the right or left extremities. I can live with that because we have the red and Blue Highlight/Shadow warning available to us.

[Andreas Liedmann]

Jonathan , the brightness slider is EXPOSURE , yes

The gamma window is necessary to adjust white/black point and the mid tones . To see when it clips the channels set your warnings to the desired values ( i use 245 and 10 for whites and blacks). If you set the white clipping to 255 you will see the red overlay when channels start to blow in the HL .If you set the value lower the red overlay will appear earlier without even blowing the HL.
The top and bottom i would leave alone , it just makes the image looking flat , it is basically reducing the overall contrast.

The shadow slider is targeting the 3/4 tones (not the real blacks ) , the highlights slider is targeting the 1/4 tones not the whites. Hope that helps .

Remember set the values for clipping first as preference (whatever they are for you ) . If you finish in DPP i would set them to 252 and 3, if you make more edits in PS i would suggest to set them to 240 and 10. Others may have different values.


The software is great , you must just know how to work with it. Just a minute ago talked to a guy from CPS germany , new stuff will come in the future with the software , like support for older kit.

Cheers Andreas

[Giovanni Frescura]

Hello Andreas
also for me is very difficult for english language...but I would like try again by DPP becouse I think it could be fine becouse Canon , off course, knows better than othet its camers..but, please, could you give me :
- notice about your setting and preference (which they are and how you set them)
- step by step your workflow...off course it could be different for each shoots but ..normal workfow,
Thanks a lot for your help
Ciao
Giovanni

[Andreas Liedmann]

Hi Giovanni ,
you asking me something difficult.......
I try with no guarantee .

Basically my preference is just to set the Color working space to Adobe RGB , sadly DPP does not support ProPhoto .
I set the warning for clipping to 10 for the blacks and 240 for the whites.

1.Adjust the WB and set picture style to neutral
2 further correction of color if needed in the WB tab
3 exposure correction (always because i shot ETTR all the time )
4 gamma correction ( very moderate , mostly mid tones and highlights )
5 tone curve adjustment ( very little if needed , mostly never)
6 color tab (adjust different colors if needed, for example reducing the blues in water /sky etc )
7 lens correction tab ( DLO and the rest of the stuff , i have no recipe for this )
8 detail tab ( Luminance NR set to 0 , Chrominance leave on Auto , go higher if needed depending on the image. Sharpness set to 2-3 depending on the image.)

My Image when send to PS CC looks very dull and dark , all the major work is done in PS .

Hope that helps.

Cheers Andreas

[Andreas Liedmann]

Hi Giovanni here is the edited final version of the file , hope you see the difference , no NR at all used.

BTW used old DPP for this , but generally the same stuff , DPP 4.0 is just simply better , miles better for me.

Cheers Andreas

[Giovanni Frescura]

Thanks a lot
your final is perfect : how you made for noise ?
about warning for clipping (I think the problem is my bad english) where it is ?
Thanks again
Giovanni

Hi Giovanni ,
you asking me something difficult.......
I try with no guarantee .

Basically my preference is just to set the Color working space to Adobe RGB , sadly DPP does not support ProPhoto .
I set the warning for clipping to 10 for the blacks and 240 for the whites.

1.Adjust the WB and set picture style to neutral
2 further correction of color if needed in the WB tab
3 exposure correction (always because i shot ETTR all the time )
4 gamma correction ( very moderate , mostly mid tones and highlights )
5 tone curve adjustment ( very little if needed , mostly never)
6 color tab (adjust different colors if needed, for example reducing the blues in water /sky etc )
7 lens correction tab ( DLO and the rest of the stuff , i have no recipe for this )
8 detail tab ( Luminance NR set to 0 , Chrominance leave on Auto , go higher if needed depending on the image. Sharpness set to 2-3 depending on the image.)

My Image when send to PS CC looks very dull and dark , all the major work is done in PS .

Hope that helps.

Cheers Andreas

[Andreas Liedmann]

Giovanni i use the german version of DPP , i have actually no idea how it is called in english / italian .
You try under EXTRA and look for display options HIGHLIGHT /SHADOW clipping warning on the top of the window , or at the bottom there is a button with a graph , click there and see what you can get.

Regarding noise : look at the first of my posts here , image taken with 20.000 ISO , i used NR very little on the final output file with in the SMART SHARPEN filter set 5% NR .If you shoot extreme ETTR like i do you have hardly any noise to deal with.If i have a noise problem i use NEAT IMAGE to deal with the noise .
The last post here the elephant seal youngster , no NR at all .

For me it is very important to overexpose a lot , to get cleaner files , because with every NR you destroy detail . But you need to get used to overexpose and risk in bright sunshine to really blow the HL , and sometimes i have images which i just blow that much that they are not recoverable and go into the bin.
That is just my workflow.

Cheers Andreas

[Giovanni Frescura]

Giovanni i use the german version of DPP , i have actually no idea how it is called in english / italian .
You try under EXTRA and look for display options HIGHLIGHT /SHADOW clipping warning on the top of the window , or at the bottom there is a button with a graph , click there and see what you can get.

Regarding noise : look at the first of my posts here , image taken with 20.000 ISO , i used NR very little on the final output file with in the SMART SHARPEN filter set 5% NR .If you shoot extreme ETTR like i do you have hardly any noise to deal with.If i have a noise problem i use NEAT IMAGE to deal with the noise .
The last post here the elephant seal youngster , no NR at all .

For me it is very important to overexpose a lot , to get cleaner files , because with every NR you destroy detail . But you need to get used to overexpose and risk in bright sunshine to really blow the HL , and sometimes i have images which i just blow that much that they are not recoverable and go into the bin.
That is just my workflow.

Cheers Andreas

Thanks Andreas
I will send you a mp

[Giovanni Frescura]

With mp is no possible send an image
I think Extra could be "avanzate" but no found where you say.
I think those messages could be interesing also for other people...and for this reason I go on here
I understood what you say about overexpose..but with low light a fast birds it is very difficult and to avoid too hight iso is sometime necessary underexpose
Thanks
Gio

[Andreas Liedmann]

Hi Giovanni sadly i cannot help you with this , simply you have the italian version , and i do not understand your language . Plus you are on Windows and i am on Mac and there seem to be a slight different in the Interface and your screen setup for DPP compared to mine.

Second i cannot help you with the noise , because you say you need to under expose for getting the shots in low light . I work differently, i overexpose by pushing the ISO and work in manual mode , so i set the aperture and SS and run Auto ISO and if necessary i go + 1-2 EV.

Again look at the shot of the seals taken with 20.000 ISO to get the 1/1000 sec and the + 1,5 EV for getting a overexposed image with LESS noise , because than i do not have to lighten the shadow areas . I hope you understand.

A suggestion from me would be , just try extreme overexposing and your normal shooting as comparison , and see which files do have less noise .

Happy testing , Andreas

[Andreas Liedmann]

Just find out about ETTR in your language and how it works , think a lot easier for you to get to it .
Because even if i explain it to you in english , i am not 100 % sure if my translation is correct , how i am working .

Andreas

[Giovanni Frescura]

What you means with ETTR ?
Have Jonhatan understood which are setting in english ?

[Jonathan Ashton]

What you means with ETTR ?
Have Jonhatan understood which are setting in english ?

Hi Gio,
ETTR means Expose To The Right, in other words fully expose the image to the points where you may have very slight overexposure. If the over exposure is slight it is then recoverable. (This is because when you look at the histogram on your camera you are actually looking at a jpeg).
Andreas is explaining that:
1. He sets his camera in manual mode
2. He often (or perhaps usually) uses Auto ISO as opposed to selecting an ISO himself
3. To ensure that he gets an overexposed image he sets the exposure bias to +1 to +2 in other words he over exposes i.e "too much light".
By ensuring his image is overexposed (because he sets +1 to +2) he knows there will be less noise, than if the image was exposed at +/- 0, he knows this because if you underexpose e.g. -1 you will generate more noise -especially in the darker areas.

On a personal note I have often wondered about Auto ISO but I do not know which algorithm is used - i.e. will the camera always set the lowest ISO to give the manual settings that have been selected. My personal view is that if the image is well exposed the noise will be minimised, I see the logic in overexposing but I would not like to run the risk of overexposing to the point that some valuable elements in the image were not recoverable.

Now coming back to my original point relating to the Blacks i.e. the left side of the Histogram in DPP4 I think the correct way of setting this is to move the vertical slider on the left hand side of the Gamma Adjustment to the right. When the blue "blinkies" appear (the blue warning pixels showing underexposure) go a fraction back to the left so they disappear. I think this is so because if you click the Auto setting it repositions all the sliders for you.
Hope this is OK - any questions please do not hesitate to ask.

[Andreas Liedmann]

Thanks alot Jonathan for explaining that to Gio .
Exactly what i am doing in capture . Not always though .You have almost no risk with ETTR and beyond when shooting on overcast day or in low light situation , just my experience . It is becoming tricky when shooting high contrast scenes i.e. Gannets on a sunny day , dark forest and a nice sky with great cloud formation etc.
Dark subject and light BKG or other way around. Then i would normally not go +1 EV or more. Just taken some shots of Flamingos in a Zoo close by during early afternoon on a sunny day , i had slight backlight and a very dark BKG .
So i had to go - 1/3 stop and still blow parts of the white feathers , but i am able to recover those blown HL in DPP.
So Giovanni for you , just keep the histogram to the right side without blowing the HL and you are good to go , at least for me .
But you have to become used to this technique.
Before i started doing this i had a lot more to deal with noise .

Hope that helps.

Thanks again Jonathan for coming back and give your feedback .

PS : you are right about the blacks and the use of the vertical slider , i hardly never touch it because i set black/white point on the final output image. Clicking AUTO is rarely a good idea , because mostly the automation clips both the blacks and the whites, also my experience .

Cheers Andreas

[Giovanni Frescura]

Thanks to both ...I will try
Gio

[Giovanni Frescura]

Hi Gio,
ETTR means Expose To The Right, in other words fully expose the image to the points where you may have very slight overexposure. If the over exposure is slight it is then recoverable. (This is because when you look at the histogram on your camera you are actually looking at a jpeg).
Andreas is explaining that:
1. He sets his camera in manual mode
2. He often (or perhaps usually) uses Auto ISO as opposed to selecting an ISO himself
3. To ensure that he gets an overexposed image he sets the exposure bias to +1 to +2 in other words he over exposes i.e "too much light".
By ensuring his image is overexposed (because he sets +1 to +2) he knows there will be less noise, than if the image was exposed at +/- 0, he knows this because if you underexpose e.g. -1 you will generate more noise -especially in the darker areas.

On a personal note I have often wondered about Auto ISO but I do not know which algorithm is used - i.e. will the camera always set the lowest ISO to give the manual settings that have been selected. My personal view is that if the image is well exposed the noise will be minimised, I see the logic in overexposing but I would not like to run the risk of overexposing to the point that some valuable elements in the image were not recoverable.

Now coming back to my original point relating to the Blacks i.e. the left side of the Histogram in DPP4 I think the correct way of setting this is to move the vertical slider on the left hand side of the Gamma Adjustment to the right. When the blue "blinkies" appear (the blue warning pixels showing underexposure) go a fraction back to the left so they disappear. I think this is so because if you click the Auto setting it repositions all the sliders for you.
Hope this is OK - any questions please do not hesitate to ask.

Hello Jhonatan I no understood where is the vertical slider that you said.
Could you capture rthe screen to show it ?
Thanks

[Jonathan Ashton]

Here you go Gio

[Giovanni Frescura]

Ok thanks very much
Gio

[Jonathan Ashton]

Gio Highlight/Shadows warning display setting is in Tools which in English is the 3rd from the right on the top tool bar

[Joel Eade]

Can you hold the ALT key down and adjust the black / white points like in ACR?

[Jonathan Ashton]

Can you hold the ALT key down and adjust the black / white points like in ACR?

Joel See my previous comment - you can see the darks and the whites but you don't need to press Alt.