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Thread: Need some gear advice!

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    Default Need some gear advice!

    Hi all,

    New member here. I recently bought the 70-200Lf/2.8 with the 2x TC and shoot it on my 60D. I have been disappointed with the results, finding the pictures too soft. I attached one I took below (no post-processing). Has anyone else had success with this combo? Do you think the body can't handle that setup?

    That being said, what is the consensus with the 1D Mark IV? I found a good one used for 3,000, and I really like the 1.3 crop factor for the extra reach over the 5DmarkIII. Thoughts?

    Thanks!


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    Were you using single-point AF? What was your ISO and shutter speed? Is this hand held or on a tripod? How long did it take for the camera/lens/TC to grab focus? How big is this crop?

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    Handheld. Iso 800. 1/400 shutter. No crop at all (1.6 crop factor on the camera though). One shot autofocus. Don't you agree this picture should be much sharper?

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    Handheld at 1/400 might be your problem rather than the body, Dave. It isn't easy (at least for me) to hold steady enough to get a sharp image at 400mm with that shutter speed. Following the diagonal of the branch the bird is sitting on, I don't see any spot in critical sharpness. This suggests to me that we are seeing slight motion blur.
    Last edited by Ian Cassell; 02-13-2014 at 12:22 PM.

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    Attached Images Attached Images
     
    Agreed, shutter speed seems to be the biggest culprit here. You have a cropped sensor (same as the 7D) and are adding a 2x converter-subject movement is 2nd place, small birds are rarely stationary, even if they appear to be as you're shooting. With that much magnification, you can expect to see movement induced softness on top of everything else. The 1DMKIV will out perform the 60D, but it will only do so once the other issues are resolved. I do have the 60D, where I find it starts to fall short is with moderately fast moving subject, it just doesn't track very well-nor was it designed to. Have you tried a good monopod? I use one with a ballfoot and find it to be very helpful in situations like this one.

    Edit- looking at this image, it appears it is focused properly. You mentioned no post processing- something has to have been done to the image by the camera or there wouldn't be an image to view. If you are using DPP and shooting RAW, could you post the Noise reduction and Unsharp mask settings please?

    This was run in LR5- +20 clarity, adjusted sharpness 45 @.6 -sharpened for screen.
    Last edited by Randall Farhy; 02-13-2014 at 12:30 PM.

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    You might eventually be able to hand hold at such a slow speed, but, for now, you need to get your shutter speed up over 1/1000 sec. for hand holding at these focal lengths.

    Generally, we shoot in Raw and then turn off sharpening in-camera, but apply it in Raw conversion. An unsharpened digital image is not a complete image. The camera's filters and processing will deliver a file that's less than optimally sharp.

    Buying a used or reconditioned 1D MkIV doesn't put a lot of financial risk into your proposed transaction and it will indeed make getting sharp images easier, once you know what you're doing. If you're already shooting a couple of thousand shots per month, then I'd say go for it. If you just started shooting birds last week and you're not sure how serious you'll stay, then you might want to delay until you're getting sharp images with your current body and you're eager to get even better.

    Still, I think the risk will be relatively low, since you'll be buying used.

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    There are so any things that can reduce sharpness on an image, especially at telephoto magnification, and you need to learn to control them all, and strike a good balance: autofocus accuracy, the slightest camera movement, shutter speed, depth of field, ISO... (I probably forgot a few more) and then processing.

    Over sharpening will also degrade an image -- the sharpening tools most of us have are limited, as is noise reduction (and they can often cancel one another). Get it sharp to start with.

    Shoot flat test targets to learn equipment limitations, then learn to cope with the many other factors in the field. You won't learn anything from one shot -- it's a statistical thing.

    It's a journey, but a very rewarding one, and you'll find a lot to be learned din the various posts on BPN. We look forward to following your progress!

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    Don't give up your lens / body combo yet. As the others have said there is a learning curve when shooting with new equipment. Not too long ago I upgraded from the canon 70-300 5.6 is usm lens to the 100-400L 5.6 and quickly found that handholding at 400 was a lot harder than at 300. I have since invested in a tripod with a ball head and my keeper rate at 400 went way up even at slower shutter speeds. The tripod makes a world of a difference.

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    I would suggest you not use the TC for now.
    If you don't have Canon's latest version II lens and version III TC your results with a 2x TC will not be any where near as sharp as a 1.4x TC. Canon's 2x TC II is OK but not great (version III 2x TC is great with version II lenses) and much better than the Nikon but you get sharper images with a 1.4x TC (plus the 1.4 does not require the very best long lens technique). In any event you need to get sharp images without using a TC before you add a TC to your lens. When you add a 2x TC you double the difficulty of getting sharp images. Remember you have a 1.6 crop camera and a 200mm lens plus a 2x TC, this combo adds up to a 640mm lens. So the absolute minimum shutter speed would be 1/640 for an expert hand holding this combo. Given that you are starting out and need to improve your long lens technique you probably need to be using 1/1250. As others have said a monopod or preferably a tripod would do wonders in improving the sharpness of you images.

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    My keeper rate went up when I ditched my tripod and went almost 100% hand held; however, a tripod might not be a bad starting point. That's where I started, but I got frustrated with opportunities missed while I was setting up, or a bird flying straight over me and I couldn't get the camera off the tripod quick enough. For now, I think you're close enough that raising ISO and shutter speed will get you most of the way there. Be very aware of squeezing the shutter.

    One of my friends, a new photographer but a long-time Navy Seal sniper, was jerking the shutter. He knew it and was kicking himself for his "stupidity" and I just said, "practice". In a week, he'd cured his problem. I routinely hand hold 1000mm shots at shutter speeds under 1/500-sec. (one moon shot was even at 1/40-sec.) but I've got over 100,000 hand held shots, including both my successes and failures. At the very front end of the learning curve, that seems impossible to consider, but you will start improving with more practice and more opportunities.

    BTW, the light in your image is lovely, BUT it's not very bright. Look for opportunities to shoot in brighter light.

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    And when you handhold, don't touch the focus ring -- on most lenses, and depending on if you have your AF set up for AI Servo and back button activation, moving it will override your AF.

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    One of the best ways to test your gear is to control as many things as possible. Set up a test subject (stuffed animal, salt shaker, etc.) in good light. Put the camera on a tripod or other solid base and set the aperture to a typical value that you expect to use in the field. If possible, use a remote release or timer to eliminate any movement of the camera. Focus on the subject, which should be at a reasonable distance, and take the shot. Repeat this process a few times, perhaps even using live view to manually focus. In the end, you should have a few shots that represent the sharpest images that your combo can produce. If the results are still not sharp, then you have to look at your gear, and perhaps repeat the test without the teleconverter. If the results were sharp, but get worse when you switch to hand holding, then you know you need to practice your technique and/or adjust your settings to get a faster shutter speed.

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    With proper hand holding technique(s) you should be able to get sharp images at 1/400, maybe not 100% of the time, but enough to get a good keeper rate. Switching gear will not yield you sharper images for perching shots IMO...improving your technique will. In the image above, although soft overall, seems to have critical focus point on the perch...what happened is that you may have moved just backward or forward just enough to throw off focus n the bird. While hand holding I would not use One Shot AF. You may not think you are moving, but it does not take much at all to get yourself out of dof range once focused on your subject. Use AI Servo and shoot in bursts of 2-3 images.

    BTW, the 1D MK 4 is an excellent camera and you would see the difference when it comes to tracking moving subjects (among other things)...so if you can splurge for it then yes, go ahead and do it!
    Last edited by Daniel Cadieux; 02-14-2014 at 11:39 AM.

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    What was your F stop here please?
    Marina Scarr
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    Marina this was at F/5.6

    Thanks for everyone's responses! I think I've taken a lot away from this thread, namely to shoot in RAW, focus on technique, shoot in AI Servo (with burst), to name a few.

    I did not mention earlier that I shot with the 70-300L for 2 years and never had any issues with softness, so I wouldn't consider myself a beginner. I think I need to just practice with this new combo a bit more.

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    Hi Dave:

    I think part of your problem with softness might be that you were shooting wide open at F5.6 (70-200 F2.8 with a 2x puts you at F5.6) It's usually best to photograph at a stop under wide open, so in this case with the 2xTC you were at F5.6, so F8 would have been a good choice. That said, however, I think you may wish to consider having your lens microadjusted to your camera if it's possible with the 60D. THis is normally a very sharp lens, and even wide open, I think it should have provided a sharper image. Do some testing with it to determine whether it's operator issues or lens issues.
    Marina Scarr
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    BPN Member Don Lacy's Avatar
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    Dave I think you have several issues at work here, first off the older 70-200 and 2x convertors are not in the same league as the newer version II combos, Second when shooting with a teleconverter you will get the best results stopped down with this combo f/8 is were you want to be, and finally your effective focal length when you add the crop factor is 640 so a shutter speed above 800 is needed to get consistently sharp images.
    Don Lacy
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