Upgrading but not sure if lens or body

[shane shacaluga]

Hi all, hope you can help me with my decisions

My current bird setup is Nikon D7000 with 300f4 and 1.7x TC

I am finding a few problems with this setup:

1. Max aperture f6.7
2. AF issues in low light and not up to BIF especially with cluttered background
3. IQ suffers drastically above ISO 500 especially if i crop or have to brighten dark areas
4. No VR so lowering SS to compensate is not a simple solution

My idea is either upgrading my body to a D800 or D800e which with battery pack would give me more or less same FPS, much better AF and high ISO capability so I can crop with less problems, or keeping the D7000 and buying a 500f4 VR lens. With a 1,4x would get me closer to the subject, allow max aperture of f5,6 so better AF and more light so I could use lower ISO and with the 1,7X i have now would give me 850mm plus the crop factor

I cannot do both so its either one option or the other

Which would you go for and why?

Thanks a lot

[Ashley Cohen]

Hi Shane, your birding setup is much like my dads was still he got a D7100 recently. Though he did also have a D300s which was his preferred camera for the speed it gave over the D7000. He's had numerous issues with the 300mm + 1.7x on the D7100 as all his images with it have been soft, at anything beyond close range. After much fretting and asking about on the web the solution seems to have been to use a much higher shutter speed and also not to push it and use the 1.4x instead. He was able to get good shots with the 1.7 on the D7000 and even better on the D300s, This all comes down to the high pixel density sensor on the D7100 and that brings me into your question.

If you got a D800 and teamed it with this combo you would suffer with quality loss big time with the 1.7x extender from what I've seen. You would also only get 15megapixels with an equivalent to DX Crop meaning that noise would still be quite visible at high ISO even though the D800 has a fantastic sensor. My suggestion is go for the 500mm F4 VR. I owned one, I switched from canon to nikon but back to canon. The 500mm is very sharp and works well on the D7000 which I used it on till i got my own D300. The Reach of the 500mm is fantastic on DX with the 1.4x, IQ wasn't amazing with the 1.7x on the D7000 but I didn't do much testing of it.

My only faults with the Nikon 500mm were the weight though the lens is very well balanced, the VR switch which is like a ring that you turn, and it always got knocked back to off some how, though mine wasn't in perfect shape body wise. VR was good on the lens but with a 1.4x in place I couldn't handhold it steadily all the time, but I suspect most would have it on a tripod.

Hope that info helps.

[shane shacaluga]

Thanks a lot for the info. Funnily enough I tested my lens and TC combo on a friends D7100 and had the same soft results

On another note, the pixel size on the D800 is like the D7000 whereas the D7100 is a lot smaller.

My plan if I got the lens would be to use it out of the car window on a beanbag or carry it on short hikes on a monopod

What sort of SS can you get down to with the VR and the 1,4x TC handheld?

[Ashley Cohen]

My dad might be interested to know that, I'll pass on that you had the same issue.

The D800 might be bigger pixels but it's still a lot of pixels on a sensor and having to crop in to 15mpx to equal DX means that flaws will show up even more so. I have a friend with a D800 and 500mm F4 VR and he says it pushes his technique, also I have spoken to others who have said the same and even got rid of it because it was too testing of there technique handholding and getting a sharp shot in general. I know others may find it easy however.

I've managed to hand hold it at 400th of a second at 700mm on the D300/D7000 but it's a matter of how strong you are and getting the AF point where you want it. If your using it from a car or even on a monopod you should have no problem with it. I would certainly try one first as the weight can be quite overwhelming at first and certainly going from a light 300mm F4 to a big 500mm Can really change how you do photography. On the one hand you get great reach but the other your limited on how far you want to go walking with it and not suffer for it afterwards lol. If the wildlife is close to where you park then dont worry, I got rid as I don't drive and it limited me in many ways to using it. I now have a 300mm F2.8 L IS MK II canon which is very sharp even with a 2x and extremely light which was a welcome change over the 500mm though I still want something bigger some time soon.

[shane shacaluga]

Thanks, its quite hard to find the lens around here and there is no company I can hire it from so may have to just go for it. If its too heavy i will continue to use the current setup for my daily walks in the woods and keep the big lens for use out of my car

Has your dad noticed a big difference in AF performance between 7100 and 7000?

[Iain Barker]

Hi Shane

I don't think the problem you are having is with the D7000 body. I use a similar set up with the older 300mm f4 af and a Sigma 1.4x tc and have not noticed these problems. In fact the only problem I have noticed is some slight CA in very high contrast parts of the images when shot a distance. I have also seen other pictures on here that are sharp at high iso using a D7000.

See this recent post by Bill Dix as an example:
http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...An-Apple-a-Day

I think it may be something to do with using the 1.7x convertor or your setting that may be causing your issues. Better glass would be the way to go I think but it is a lot of money to spend if it is just your setting that need changing.

There are other people on here with a lot more knowledge than me on this area but I hope this helps.

[shane shacaluga]

Hi Iain, thanks for your comments. I always have Bill Dix as my reference for shooting with the D7000

Here for example is a shot from this weekend at ISO 1600



I only cropped it slightly for rotation purposes but as you can see there is a load of grain/noise on the dark feathers. If I had to crop more it would be a lot more noticeable

Hence my thoughts of going for a body that can handle up to ISO 2500 or 3200 or get more reach so I dont have to crop

[Iain Barker]

I can see from your image the problem you are having.
How large was the crop on this image? I wonder if it is not so much the ISO but the low number of pixels remaining in the image. I don't think a body with better ISO handling would solve your problem but as you say having more reach would and a longer lens may the way to go. Although without a convertor on the 500 the focal length would be slightly less then currently have with the 500 and 1.7x but with a larger max aperture.

[shane shacaluga]

I agree, but on the 500 with the teleconvertor, a lot less crop would be needed, even if I had to use the exact same settings as i do now. Meaning that the grain would be much less apparent in the final image

So thats one big point in favour of the glass

Second issue is the AF capacity which would improve with the big lens and being able to use a 1.4x instead of a 1.7x

I guess i need to find a lens :D

[Randy Stout]

Shane:

The 1.7 TC is the weakest of the three current Nikon TCs. I have one, but only use it in very bright conditions where I can use f/8 or higher. I probably use the 1.4 at least 100x more frequently.

My sense of the noise performance with the D7000 would be try to stay at 800 ISO max, unless you have a light subject and can expose well to the right. I don't own this camera, but have seen a lot of images posted with it.

There certainly will be exceptional circumstances where it will work well at higher ISOs, but the noise is usually lurking.

Cheers

Randy

[shane shacaluga]

Thanks Randy, i bought the used lens with a 1.4x TC. This TC turned out to be scratched and caused a lot of flare. So went to buy a new 1,4x II but its been discontinued so got the 1.7x instead

The plan would be to get the 500 f4 and a 1.4x to have f5,6 and 700mm and VR, as opposed to f6.7 510mm and no VR

[Ashley Cohen]

Hi Shane, to answer your earlier question I think the AF performance is slightly improved on the D7100 though the smaller buffer is an issue with capturing fast action. Though my dad just come in now and once again said he's not happy with the camera.

Looking at your image I can see that you have masses of noise in the subject. To me it looks like you've cropped at least 50% and then sharpened the subject in such a way / or the subject needed it due to the softness with the 1.7x and you have induced a lot of noise.

These images I have taken with the 500mm F4 and D7000 both at ISO 1600 (f4) in a fairly dark woods and both are to me quite noise free after processing. Both are fairly small crops but I could show heavier crops even with the 7D that I owned at 1600 ISO that looked good.





I think it shows that you can shoot at higher ISO with a sharp lens combo and get really good results with the D7000. Im not sure why they told u that 1.4x II was discontinued because it's still for sale and they have no reason not to keep making it currently.

[shane shacaluga]

Thanks a lot for that. Those shots look pretty good. I will try to post the original grey heron shot as I dont think I cropped that much.

The 1.4x was showing as discontinued in the store I buy my equipment and there have been other Nikon websites commenting the same thing. There could be a 1.4x III coming out soon???

I will look out for a 500 lens

Anyone selling theirs? :D

[drosskennedy]

Shane, Maybe you should Rent the 500mm F4 and see what you get with and whitout the teleconverter .

[Bill Jobes]

Shane,

Have you considered a good condition pre-owned D3 ? Pro bodies like that one should solve your issues immediately. I used one for a few years with unqualified excellent results.

My experience with a friend's D800 was in the 'pushing my technique' category. Compared to the pro bodies like the D3 series or the D4, the D800 under-achieves for BIFs. OTOH, it is a world-class landscape camera.

My experience owning both the D7000 and D7100 mirrors yours and Ashley's Dad's. They are great bodies for sitting birds, landscape, and macro, et ., but not for situations that demand rapid autofocus response, and especially so against a varied BG.

Regarding the Nikon TC-17E II, I find it to be an outstanding performer, and it sits nearly permanently between my 600 VR II and D4 body. It has never let me down shooting NFL and NHL sports, or flying birds. It isn't ideal, though for your 300 F/4.

There are some outstanding D3 sales offers on Fred Miranda right now.

Good luck with your decision !