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Thread: Birds in Flight or Action

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    Brian Kersey
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    Default Birds in Flight or Action

    Hello everyone,

    I thought that this subject would be good to add in the educational resources sections to learn from BIF masters who can help us Average Joes to advance in this difficult art. I am requesting that some of the Moderators or Professionals share their techniques that they use to make these superb BIF or Birds in Action Images. I am also posting this due to a great shot I missed of two terns fighting mid-air but the focus was off. Also, I'm having trouble keeping focus when a tern dive-bombs the water and surfaces with a fish. I'm using a 1D2 and a 400L f/5.6 so I'm positive that this issue is user error. I guess that's why I thought of this now. Please share your techniques and camera setting to help. It is greatly appreciated.

    Brian Kersey

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    I use a 1DII and I get my best results when I use AI Servo on high speed (a custom function setting), and one focus point on the bird (preferably on the Bird's eye). I use a 500 f/4 L IS on a full Wimberly. I fell I can track subjects better with the 500+Wimberly than if I use a shorter lighter lens hand held (e.g. 300 mm). I find I move too quickly of jerk too much with a hand-held lens.

    Some bird photos: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird


    Roger

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    Fabs Forns
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    Brian, for action, you need fast shutter speed, let's say 1200 and up for argument's sake. Continuous focus or AI Servo modes, depending on your camera system, good reflexes and good aim.

    Practice is the key.

    If you are speaking of Least Terns, welcome to the club, that is one heavy duty task. So are Purple Martins and Swallows. You need good wind to hold them steady for you. You need the wind coming from the same direction of the sun, otherwise they will not face you. They land and hover against the wind, with the light shining on them if the wind is right.

    I find closer subject easier to track with a smaller hand=held lens, and further with the supertele and Wimberly head.
    Regardless of your choice of focus points, the center is the more powerful for initial acquisition, even if you have more points active.

    Did I mention practice?

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    I am an average Joe. But yes, practice it is. And the opportunity to practice a lot with somewhat predictable bird behavior. As well as what Fab mentions: center focus and having the sun and wind in your back!

    As for tern dive bombs: I just learned this weekend to rather focus (AI Servo) on the water beneath a hovering tern than on the bird. It turns out that the whole diving process actually takes a lot more time than it seems at first sight and allows you to recompose and focus. But key is, apparently, to have the focus, at least approximately, correct on first attempt. And yes, with longer lenses you'd probably be better off to keep your distance.

    Hope that helps. JR

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    Hi John, Good thread. Sorry that it took me so long to get here. And yes to practice. You will surely be interested in checking out "Flight Photography Basics" in BAA Bulletin 260 here: http://www.birdsasart.com/bn260.htm. It is just one example of the great info in our Bulletins which are free; you and the rest of the gang should subscribe. In addition, the Bulletin Archives have a great search feature and I have written tons on AF sensors and flight photography. ABP II has lots of good info on the subject also, esp. the affect of wind direction on flight photography.
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  6. #6
    Brian Kersey
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    Thanks for all the help guys.
    Last edited by Brian Kersey; 05-14-2008 at 05:24 PM.

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    You said you feel you can track birds in flight better with a Wimberly than using the camera hand-held. I tried a Wimberly and it worked fine as long as the subject was at a distance, but I had a tough time tracking subjects in flight when they climbed quickly, especially when they were near the camera (I couldn't stoop low enough) How do you handle those situations? I hope there is a tactic I can use, because hand-held is good exercise, but not a lot of fun.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    You said you feel you can track birds in flight better with a Wimberly than using the camera hand-held. I tried a Wimberly and it worked fine as long as the subject was at a distance, but I had a tough time tracking subjects in flight when they climbed quickly, especially when they were near the camera (I couldn't stoop low enough) How do you handle those situations? I hope there is a tactic I can use, because hand-held is good exercise, but not a lot of fun.
    James, who said that you can track birds better in flight with a Wimberley than when hand-holding???

    I would certainly disagree with that as a general statement. It is always easier to handhold for flight and action provided that you can comfortably hold the lens (and usually for an exended period of time). With long heavy lenses of course a tripod is best 99% of the time for most ordinary folks (like me and you). But nothing beats handholding for follwoing the action... Also, the farther away the bird is, the slower its speed relative to your position (thus a tripod is the way to go for fairly distant birds...

    As far as photographing birds in flight that are well above my position, my general rule is that I will only photograph birds 15-20 degrees above the horizon unless they are flying directly overhead. If the subjects are more than 20 degrees above the horizon it is more than rare that the image will succeed, the angle will be too steep and the perspective will not be pleasing. In 25 years of flight photography, I have never kept an image of a bird flying more than 20 degrees above the horizon except as noted above. Would love to see an image to prove me wrong as to this advise...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    James, who said that you can track birds better in flight with a Wimberley than when hand-holding???
    I did, but perhaps it's just me. I have tried doing flight shots with a variety of lenses from 400 mm to 200 mm (I do like my 300 f/4 IS) but I find I am more jerky and never seem to do as well as with my 500 f/4 on a full Wimberly mount. I seem to be able to pan smoother and keep the bird's eye on my focus point of choice when panning flight action with the Wimberly than I can hand held. In making this comparison, I'm comparing similar frame filling images. Part of this may be with the longer lens, I'm working farther away so the turn rates are lower.


    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    I would certainly disagree with that as a general statement. It is always easier to handhold for flight and action provided that you can comfortably hold the lens (and usually for an exended period of time). With long heavy lenses of course a tripod is best 99% of the time for most ordinary folks (like me and you). But nothing beats handholding for follwoing the action... Also, the farther away the bird is, the slower its speed relative to your position (thus a tripod is the way to go for fairly distant birds...

    As far as photographing birds in flight that are well above my position, my general rule is that I will only photograph birds 15-20 degrees above the horizon unless they are flying directly overhead. If the subjects are more than 20 degrees above the horizon it is more than rare that the image will succeed, the angle will be too steep and the perspective will not be pleasing. In 25 years of flight photography, I have never kept an image of a bird flying more than 20 degrees above the horizon except as noted above. Would love to see an image to prove me wrong as to this advise...
    I don't understand your statement. Are you also saying you generally will not photograph birds in flight below 15 to 20 degrees high relative to the horizon? I do agree that at 15-20 degree, is a sweet spot. This image was a little higher than 20 degrees as I remember (but I didn't have a protractor), probably 30 or so degrees high:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...8715b-700.html
    This was also at about 30 degrees, if I remember right (I do remember the tree and when I go by it in January,
    I'll try and remember to get a measurement):
    http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...7355b-700.html

    Here is a bird in flight image (published full page in Nature's Best, Fall, 2004) taken at the Venice Rookery, flying right towards me and level (0 degrees to the horizon):
    http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...ght.f-600.html

    Roger

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    Hi Roger,

    re:

    I don't understand your statement. Are you also saying you generally will not photograph birds in flight below 15 to 20 degrees high relative to the horizon?

    Ah, a brain typo. I intended to and thought that I wrote this: "As far as photographing birds in flight that are well above my position, my general rule is that I will only photograph birds that are no higher than 15-20 degrees above the horizon unless they are flying directly overhead.

    If your kite is indeed as high as 30 degrees it is the look down that makes it successful, and it was hovering not flying <smile> And the raptor was not flying either.
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    Hi Again Roger,

    re:

    I have tried doing flight shots with a variety of lenses from 400 mm to 200 mm (I do like my 300 f/4 IS) but I find I am more jerky and never seem to do as well as with my 500 f/4 on a full Wimberly mount.

    Somewhere above I think that I wrote an explanation for what you are experiencing. The speed of more distant birds relative to your position is less (and thus they are easier to track. And the best way to improve your handheld flight photography is to practice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Hi Roger,
    If your kite is indeed as high as 30 degrees it is the look down that makes it successful, and it was hovering not flying <smile>
    Huh? It sure had to flap its wings a lot to "not be flying," and if it would have stopped, it would have dropped like a rock.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    And the raptor was not flying either.
    In the eagle image. it is just approaching the tree. You can see the foot still has the claws fully extended. The frame before (-0.11 second) shows clear sky, about 6 inches, so the eagle was moving about 3 feet per second. Unfortunately, I clipped the wing on that frame but the eagle looks the same. It is the next frame (+0.11 second) where the eagle grabs the branch and begins to arrest its motion.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Hi Again Roger,
    Somewhere above I think that I wrote an explanation for what you are experiencing. The speed of more distant birds relative to your position is less (and thus they are easier to track. And the best way to improve your handheld flight photography is to practice.
    I agree with the effect of more distant birds show less relative apparent motion. But that is also balanced by the fact that the longer focal length lens has a smaller field of view and is more difficult to point and follow the bird. At some point the longer focal length with its small field of view becomes more difficult to track a moving subject at the slower angular rates. For me it gets more difficult above about 1000 mm on a 1.3x crop camera.

    Regarding hand held practice, I agree. I've been practicing for 20+ years, and once I got a Wimberly 6 years ago, my tracking ability improved many times despite a longer focal length lens with its smaller field of view. (smile)

    Roger

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    Actually, I believe that the kite was kiting. (Only hummingbirds can hover.) And when a kite is kiting or a hummer hovering, they are not going anywhere so to my mind, they are not flying (even though each is a type of flight).

    Guess what I was trying to say is that if a bird is flying, going somehwhere, from right to left or left to right (rather than right at you), that I will almost never photograph a bird flying higher than 15-20 degrees above the horizon. I see tons of folks bending way over in these situations taking dozens of images that have zero possibility of being any good. Thanks for helping me clarify my thoughts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Actually, I believe that the kite was kiting. (Only hummingbirds can hover.) And when a kite is kiting or a hummer hovering, they are not going anywhere so to my mind, they are not flying (even though each is a type of flight).
    Art,
    Just a scientific clarification. Hummingbirds have developed the most sophisticated hovering ability able to also move backwards, but other birds hover too. For example see:

    http://www.csupomona.edu/~dfhoyt/cla.../CNH_BIRD.HTML
    Classification and Natural History of the Birds
    "We have animals called"kites" which are really beautiful graceful white birds with, like, a V-shaped tail. And many times if you look out in the agricultural fields you'll see some bird sitting there flying perfectly suspended in space. And all of a sudden it swoops down on the ground. That's a kite. Or it might also be another real small animal called a sparrow hawk. Also, these animals are also called Kestrals, American Kestrals. Both are insectivores. They are the smallest ones. You can't be a very big bird and hover. Hovering is the most energetic phase of flight. Only small birds can hover. But both kites and sparrow hawks are able to hover."



    In the case of the Kite I photographed on the Serengeti, it was a completely calm day, no perceptible breeze, so it was not "kiting" on a breeze.


    I'll keep an eye out for a great bird flight forward motion image higher than 20 degrees up. ;)


    Roger

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    Artie,
    You asked who said you can track birds better in flight with a Wimberley...in the thread I responded to rnclark said, "I use a 1DII and I get my best results when I use AI Servo on high speed (a custom function setting), and one focus point on the bird (preferably on the Bird's eye). I use a 500 f/4 L IS on a full Wimberly. I fell I can track subjects better with the 500+Wimberly than if I use a shorter lighter lens hand held (e.g. 300 mm). I find I move too quickly of jerk too much with a hand-held lens."

    I was surprised to hear that, and that is why I asked the question. I hope to learn something new from rnclark, as I have not had much success in using a tripod to track in flight subjects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by James Johnson View Post
    Artie,
    You asked who said you can track birds better in flight with a Wimberley...in the thread I responded to rnclark said, "I use a 1DII and I get my best results when I use AI Servo on high speed (a custom function setting), and one focus point on the bird (preferably on the Bird's eye). I use a 500 f/4 L IS on a full Wimberly. I fell I can track subjects better with the 500+Wimberly than if I use a shorter lighter lens hand held (e.g. 300 mm). I find I move too quickly of jerk too much with a hand-held lens."

    I was surprised to hear that, and that is why I asked the question. I hope to learn something new from rnclark, as I have not had much success in using a tripod to track in flight subjects.
    I feel the difference in hand held versus full Wimberly and tripod is the tripod allows smoother panning and reduces fatigue. Try holding a 300 f/4 lens on a 1D body tracking birds for 2 to 3 hours. If I'm in a bird intense environment, my arms get tired just being up in front of my face moving the lens around on the tripod (not holding any weight except the weight of the arms and hands). Hand holding a lens would get exhausting much faster. So on a tripod, I am more relaxed and remain so for a much longer period. The tripod and big lens forces me to move slower and more methodical, allowing for smoother panning while tracking a subject (whether a bird in flight or animal on the ground). I've used the full Wimberly on tripod, on a Rue window mount, and on a Todd-Pod on a safari vehicle tacking birds and animals for many hours.

    In comparing hand held versus tripod, I'm considering that the subject fills the frame. For example, with the smaller hand-held lens, the bird would have to be closer, so it is flying by faster. Maybe I just find the turn rates of the closer birds more difficult for me. If I compare the same bird at the same distance, so the turn rates are the same, then the smaller lens has the bird smaller in the field of view, and then I would find it easier to track with the smaller lens. Let's look at an extreme: 600 mm frame filling bird moving 10 degrees/second, versus a 100 mm lens with the bird 6 times closer traveling across your field of view at 60 degrees per second. I think tracking at 60 degrees per second is more difficult than 10 degrees per second regardless of the lens mass difference, at least for me. With the longer lens and slower rates, I also have more time on the bird, catching it in more interesting action and.or wing position with perhaps better background.

    So next time you are out, consider how difficult it is to get frame filling images at each focal length.

    Roger

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    I understand fully (and have for years) that the relative speed of bird close flying by to you is greater than the relative speed of birds that are flying at the same speed through the air that are farther away. IAC, my experience is that it is far easier to follow birds in flight and in action with a shorter handheld lens than it is with a tripod mounted longer lens, why else would folks like Jim Neiger spend their entire lives practicing their handholding tehcniques? Can long tripod-mounted lenses be used effectively for creating images of large, relatively slow birds flying smooth courses? Of course the answer to that is yes. At times when unexpected turns and twists are to be expected, I will handhold any lens that I can lift for easier framing and for better results.
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    Wow. There are a lot of different topics going on here. I'll try to comment on a few of them.

    Hand held vs tripod:
    This is something I'm familiar with. I've been testing these waters since I started photographing birds. For the last 2 years I have been earning my living teaching photgraphers hand held techniques for photographing birds in flight. Naturaly, my opinion is that the hand held method is much better than the tripod method in most cases for photographing birds in flight. There are three main reasons why I think this.
    1. Initial subject aquisition. By initial subject aquisition, I mean finding the subject in the viewfinder and focusing on it for the first time. Initial subject aquisition skill is one of the most importatnt skills to learn when photographing bif. It takes a lot of practice to be able to do it very quickly and consistantly. Doing it hand held is much easier than doing on a tripod. This is because you can pop the camera and lens up to your eye while maintaining on line of site to the subject. In other words, when you lift the camera to your eye you do it while looking at the bird and you line up the camea and lens to follow your line of sight to the subject. I've developed this skill to the point where I can do it almost instantly on just about any subject with just about any focal length. With a tripod, you must bring your eye to the tripod and then search for the subject. This is much more difficult to do consistantly. This is probably the biggest advantage that hand held has over the tripod.
    2. Range and speed of movement.
    When shooting hand held and following a moving target, you can simply rotate your body as you are following the subject. With a tripod you must walk around the tripod to follow the subject. This is much more time consuming and is difficult to do while panning smoothly. The tripod also limits your movement when changing angle from high to low. Again your body and head must move to follow the camera. Hand held you just tilt the camera and your head up or down.
    3. Setup, take down, adjusting position. Adjusting your position is much easier and faster hand held than with a tripod. If you are standing and wish to switch to a low angle with hand held you just squat or sit or lie down. With a tripod you must first adjust and position each of the tripod legs. If you decide you want the higher standing angle again, hand held, you just stand up, with the tripod you must deal wioth each of the three legs again. If you are in a car and spot something you wish to photograph, with hand held you just stop and shoot thru the window or get out and shoot. With the tripod you must retrieve iand set it up. This is much more time consuming. If you r subject moves and you wish to follow, with hand held, you just walk or run to follow the subject. You can do the same with the tripod, but it is much heavier, bulkier, and more akward. You may need to secure the rig before you move which takes a bit of time, and you need to be careful moving so you don't catch the tripod on anything or trip over the legs, etc. It certainly takes longer and is more difficult than hand held.

    I guess the bottom line is that hand held is much faster, more flexible, and allows you to be ready for action at all times.

    Difficulties of photographing bif:
    Focal length: Generaly speaking the longer the focal length the more difficult it is to photograph bif. Of course there are exceptions to this and just about everything else in photography.

    AF Speed: The slower your af speed is the more difficult it is to photograph bif. AF speed and performance is affected by the af capabilities of your camera, the speed of your lens, and settings of your lens and camera.

    Backrounds:
    Smooth sky bgs with little or no contrast are much, much easier than varied bgs when photographing bif. I use only the center af point when photographing bif. I find that this puts the point of focus more precisely under my control. If multiple af points are used on a varied bg, the camera will often focus on the bg. Since I want to be ready for non-sky bgs, I use only the center af point when the bg is sky. That way if the subject flies in front of a varied bg I'm ready. Since sky bgs are so much eaisier, the added benefit of multiple af points for sky isn't needed anyway.

    I have discussed techniques for photogrhing bif in other threads that may be useful for thoose that wish to learn more about photographing bif. Please see my posts here: http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...35&postcount=3 and here: http://www.birdphotographers.net/for...ead.php?t=1949
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    Thanks Jim. Nobody is more qualified to comment on this subject than you. For handholding big lenses, folks need to realize that they have to be able to lift the lens for at least a minute or two...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Thanks Jim. Nobody is more qualified to comment on this subject than you. For handholding big lenses, folks need to realize that they have to be able to lift the lens for at least a minute or two...
    Artie,

    I teach a skill I call efficient shooting. The goal is to anticipate the action and develop your acquisition skills to the point where you only need to hold the camera up in shooting position while you are actualy making images. This means you can learn to shoot hand held successfully even if you can only hold your rig up in shooting position comfortably for 10-20 seconds. Most of the time you remain in a rest position. The better at it you get, the easier it is to do. Like I tell my students; "The worst day is the first day. After that it's all down hill." :D
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    .. Like I tell my students; "The worst day is the first day. After that it's all down hill." :D
    That's what my fencing teacher told me in college after the first day when he really put us through the wringer with killer stretching. Fortunately, he was right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    Wow. There are a lot of different topics going on here. I'll try to comment on a few of them.

    Hand held vs tripod:
    This is something I'm familiar with. I've been testing these waters since I started photographing birds. For the last 2 years I have been earning my living teaching photgraphers hand held techniques for photographing birds in flight. Naturaly, my opinion is that the hand held method is much better than the tripod method in most cases for photographing birds in flight. There are three main reasons why I think this.
    1. Initial subject aquisition. By initial subject aquisition, I mean finding the subject in the viewfinder and focusing on it for the first time. Initial subject aquisition skill is one of the most importatnt skills to learn when photographing bif. It takes a lot of practice to be able to do it very quickly and consistantly. Doing it hand held is much easier than doing on a tripod.
    Personally, I find the opposite. While I do occasionally do a quick hand held bif (e.g. with 300 f/4, 300 f/2.8, 500 f/4), one tires pretty quickly, even lifting the lens for 30 seconds to a minute. A couple hour session in target rich environment means a lot of time holding up the lens, and 1D cameras are pretty heavy too. Early on I did have
    trouble with first acquisition with a long lens on a tripod, and sometimes with keeping track, especially with the 500 and a 2x TC. But I solved that problem by mounting a finderscope on the 500 mm. I mount it onto the wimberly flash bracket in such a way that I can look through the camera viewfinder at the same time as sighting through the larger field of view finder. It works like a charm. That has allowed me rapid acquisition and continued tracking even at 1000 mm. I find I can track birds in flight for very long periods at any focal length and not get tired (I ususally get hungry or need to go to the restroom first ;-). One can use a simple tube with no optics or something like a rifle scope. As focal length increases, I think it is harder to hand hold bif for very long.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    2. Range and speed of movement.
    When shooting hand held and following a moving target, you can simply rotate your body as you are following the subject. With a tripod you must walk around the tripod to follow the subject. This is much more time consuming and is difficult to do while panning smoothly. The tripod also limits your movement when changing angle from high to low. Again your body and head must move to follow the camera. Hand held you just tilt the camera and your head up or down.
    I generally have two cameras and 2 lenses. The 500 on the wimberly, and a smaller lens like a 300 f/4 or f/2.8 for those quick hand held shots. The big lens extends the range of possible targets. When I'm in the field, sometimes a photographer sets up too close to me, and I'll ask him to move further away and I show him my radium of moving around the tripod. I'll often do a 180 degree rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    3. Setup, take down, adjusting position. Adjusting your position is much easier and faster hand held than with a tripod. If you are standing and wish to switch to a low angle with hand held you just squat or sit or lie down. With a tripod you must first adjust and position each of the tripod legs. If you decide you want the higher standing angle again, hand held, you just stand up, with the tripod you must deal wioth each of the three legs again. If you are in a car and spot something you wish to photograph, with hand held you just stop and shoot thru the window or get out and shoot.
    I agree. But just because you have a tripod, does not mean you have to use it. When I'm in photo mode, the camera and lens (up to 500mm) is in easy reach for that quick hand held shot through the window. If there is more time, I'll put on the window mount so no need to get out of the car.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    Difficulties of photographing bif:
    Focal length: Generaly speaking the longer the focal length the more difficult it is to photograph bif. Of course there are exceptions to this and just about everything else in photography.
    Yes, and adding a finder helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    Backrounds:
    Smooth sky bgs with little or no contrast are much, much easier than varied bgs when photographing bif. I use only the center af point when photographing bif.
    I use the center AF point when at f/8, otherwise I use the AF point on the subject's eyes and move the
    AF point as needed to adjust my desired composition, all while tracking the subject. Birds in flight are generally one direction, but animals can go back and forth a lot more randomly. I agree about multiple AF points, I rarely use multiple AF points, even when doing a landscape.

    Roger Clark
    http://www.clarkvision.com
    Last edited by Roger Clark; 07-21-2008 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rnclark View Post
    [snip] Birds in flight are generally one direction, but animals can go back and forth a lot more randomly.
    Any tips on how to track and shoot those speedy, erratic flying swallows?

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    Roger, you seem to be saying above that hand-holding is better but more tiring...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond Chan View Post
    Any tips on how to track and shoot those speedy, erratic flying swallows?
    That is probably one of the toughest bif subjects, at least for me. Personally, small fast birds is where I have worked mostly hand held with a short lens. The angular turn rates to follow a small bird when full frame with a hand-held lens are pretty high and difficult. But given the right distance I suppose with a long lens with a finder scope on a tripod, one might have a chance too. I think there are the right tools for the right conditions, and that includes what focal length for what range and how large in the frame you want the subject. So having a couple of cameras with different focal length lenses is usually useful in my experience.

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    Roger, you seem to be saying above that hand-holding is better but more tiring...
    Art,
    I certainly agree that a rapid response hand held shot certainly has a better success rate than on a tripod, but how long can one hand hold a lens? That certainly is a function of the focal length and lens weight. The larger and heavier the lens, the sooner ones hands and arms tire and start to shake while holding the lens, even if for short bursts. With short lenses like a 300 f/4 or 400 f/5.6, the lens weight is small, so I can hand hold for a while, but still not as long as I can work with a larger lens on a tripod.

    Perhaps all this hand held/tripod trade point is also a function of how many images/hour one takes. For example, in a new fantastic spot, or even at an old spot, like Bosque, or the Venice Rookery, I find I take more images the first day or so than on subsequent days. For those who get out often, perhaps this is not a factor, but my job keeps me pretty busy, so when I do get to a great spot, I usually work pretty hard. Call me trigger happy. So in a great environment where I'm photographing a lot of birds in flight, the tripod is the way I go for me.

    Question, in a place like Bosque or the Venice Rookery (two of my favorite spots) how much hand held versus tripod bif do you do? The birds here are large and move pretty predictably. For example, the crane take-offs in the morning and landings in the evening at the crane pools I think are pretty predictable. I can acquire a bird or group of birds at great distance and follow them in, or see when a bird is getting ready to take off and follow it as it does. e.g. 500 mm on a wimberly and tripod, single AF point:
    http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...arl.d-700.html
    http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries...999.d-600.html

    Most people I see at Bosque, Venice and other places are using big lenses on a tripod. Although several times people have commented on my following birds with a tripod mounted 500mm lens, saying "you can't do that!" Maybe I'm just weird, but it works for me.

    Roger

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    We would love to see some of your flight images, especially those of small birds in flight and large in the frame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desmond Chan View Post
    Any tips on how to track and shoot those speedy, erratic flying swallows?
    Hi Desmond,

    Try using your fastest focusing lens/camera combination. Avoid using tcs or anything that slows down af. Spend some time observing flight patterns so you can try to anticipate some of the erratic flight paths. Pre-focus at a similar distance when possible. Shoot hand held.

    Swallows are not all that difficult when they are flying against a sky bg. It gets much more difficult on varied bgs. Getting them at a pleasing angle, with pleasing head and wing positions is another story.
    Jim Neiger - Kissimmee, Florida

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    Roger,

    I'm glad to hear you are having success with bif from the tripod. After having spent many days in the field with some of the best tripod shooters on the planet, I can tell you that there is no way a skilled tripod shooter can consistantly keep up with a skilled hand held shooter using the same camera and lens. If you develop your hand held skills enough, fatigue is not a problem. Efficient shooting skills overcome the fatigue issues. I have hand held a canon pro-body with 600mm lens all day with no problem. I hand hold my 500mm almost all the time often shooting every day for more than 8 hours each day. The only time fatigue becomes a problem for me is when I go shoot with James Shadle and we spend the whole day wading in waist deep water. This means there is no place for me to put the camera down and rest. I have to hold it the whole time. I have done this several times with no issues, but a couple of times my back was sore the next few days (I have chronic back problems).

    Question: Are you saying that you adjust your focus point on the fly while tracking birds in flight?
    Jim Neiger - Kissimmee, Florida

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    As for the swallows: try to photograph them aroound their nesting areas but only on days with 25+ mph winds and with either the sun coming from the same direction as the wind or complete cloud cover.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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    Thanks Roger, Jim and Artie for the tips !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur Morris View Post
    We would love to see some of your flight images, especially those of small birds in flight and large in the frame.
    Hi Art,
    The bird images I have online are at http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird

    Roger

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    Roger,
    I'm glad to hear you are having success with bif from the tripod. After having spent many days in the field with some of the best tripod shooters on the planet, I can tell you that there is no way a skilled tripod shooter can consistantly keep up with a skilled hand held shooter using the same camera and lens. If you develop your hand held skills enough, fatigue is not a problem. Efficient shooting skills overcome the fatigue issues.
    You may be right, but there are other considerations that may make me a little different. I have never revealed this in a public forum, but I do have a disability that limits what I can accomplish, and in the field one may never notice my problem. I have suffered some sever eye problems, including a detached retina. These problems limit my ability to pick out details; my eyes don't completely merge the images, and that effects my depth perception. The corrective surgeries have left me with flair and all this makes it hard for me to follow action when I hand hold. The tripod steadies the lens to allow me to compensate for some of these problems. I'm not looking for sympathy or anything, just a realization that what may work well for some may not work for everyone. Other than that, I'm quite healthy.
    But when someone asks you what is your most important set of optics, respond with "my eyes!"

    I can also envision that some people may not have the ability to hold a lens steady, so a tripod may make better sense for them too for birds in flight. It can be done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    Question: Are you saying that you adjust your focus point on the fly while tracking birds in flight?
    Yes. And with wildlife action. I might add, this is much easier with a tripod mounted lens.
    Roger
    Last edited by Roger Clark; 07-21-2008 at 09:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rnclark View Post
    You may be right, but there are other considerations that may make me a little different. I have never revealed this in a public forum, but I do have a disability that limits what I can accomplish, and in the field one may never notice my problem. I have suffered some sever eye problems, including a detached retina. These problems limit my ability to pick out details; my eyes don't completely merge the images, and that effects my depth perception. The corrective surgeries have left me with flair and all this makes it hard for me to follow action when I hand hold. The tripod steadies the lens to allow me to compensate for some of these problems. I'm not looking for sympathy or anything, just a realization that what may work well for some may not work for everyone. Other than that, I'm quite healthy.
    But when someone asks you what is your most important set of optics, respond with "my eyes!"

    I can also envision that some people may not have the ability to hold a lens steady, so a tripod may make better sense for them too for birds in flight. It can be done.



    Yes. And with wildlife action. I might add, this is much easier with a tripod mounted lens.
    Roger
    Everyone is different and the best method depends on the individual and situation. From your comments above, it sounds like you do quite a bit of hand holding inspite of your disability. One thing that might help with the problem you mentioned is to tuck your elbows into your body when shooting, and then move your whole upper body as if it were fused into one piece. Perhaps this will provide the stability you need. I use this technique often, particularly when shooting at slower shutter speeds.

    When it comes to which method is generaly best for wildlife action, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

    My philosophy is to always shoot hand held unless I need a tripod to make the image I want. Most pro wildlife photographers are the exact opposite and always use a tripod unless they need to shoot hand held to get the shot. I think shooting with a tripod is too limiting. I can get much better results when shooting action hand held than I can using a tripod. I can can also get better results shooting still subjects hand held than I can when using a tripod. At least in most situations. Overall, I find that I am much more productive as a photographer shooting hand held vs using a tripod and in many cases I can make images that would be nearly impossible for me to make using a tripod.
    Jim Neiger - Kissimmee, Florida

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Neiger View Post
    Artie,

    I teach a skill I call efficient shooting. The goal is to anticipate the action and develop your acquisition skills to the point where you only need to hold the camera up in shooting position while you are actualy making images. This means you can learn to shoot hand held successfully even if you can only hold your rig up in shooting position comfortably for 10-20 seconds. Most of the time you remain in a rest position. The better at it you get, the easier it is to do. Like I tell my students; "The worst day is the first day. After that it's all down hill." :D

    I was just referred to this thread from another thread! Jim, looking forward to learning "efficient shooting!" :D

    For other newbies, this thread which is a year old shows how much educational material is buried in the depths of BPN. I did a copy and paste of much of this thread to my BIF Focusing Tip & Tactics document.

    Thanks everyone. Jay

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    Jiim is a good friend and one of the best in the world at photographing flight and action. And he is skilled at teaching his methods.

    For birds flying by at a distance erratically and/or changing course rapidly hand-holding is pretty much the only option. For large, slow-flying birds like cranes, photographed at a distance, many folks will create sharper images and find working off a tripod easier. And for the older folks (yours truly included), hand-holding a big lens can be a physical challenge after the first few minutes.

    Lastly, though Axel and Jim do it routinely, hand-holding large lens (with and without teleconverters) just does not make sense to me for the vast majority of nature photographers.
    BIRDS AS ART Blog: great info and lessons, lots of images with our legendary BAA educational Captions; we will not sell you junk. 30+ years of long lens experience/e-mail with gear questions.

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