Canon 800 f5.6 L IS OR Canon 600 f4 L IS - your advice please!

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I have been using the Canon 600 f4 IS with the Canon 1D Mark IV for almost a year now and I got some nice results - mostly without a converter. However, I can't stop thinking about the Canon 800 f5.6 L IS as using it I won't need to use a teleconverter which I am not crazy about.

Please note that I am mostly interested in action and behaviour shots so need the AF to work as fast and accurate as possible. I should also mention that most of my work is done from distance of 15-30 meters.
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Any input which will push me into it or maybe away from it (and save me a lot of money:bg3:) would be greatly appreciated.<o:p></o:p>
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Thanks guys,<o:p></o:p>
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There is simply no way that I would ever go for an 800 over a 600 f/4; this will be even more true when the new 600 comes out with its 3 pound weight savings. The 800 just isn't versatile enough; it's too long for many situations, and there's nothing you can do about that except back away from your subject (if you are able to). And you can never get f/4. On a Mark IV, the 600 gives you a 600mm f/4, an 840mm f/5.6, and a 1200mm f/8, all of which will AF on your body.

+1 for what Doug said.

I think you'll find the IQ of your finished images will be quite good with the latest TCs. I use the 1.4x TC quite often on my 7D, which doesn't have the AF speed of you MkIV, and find it very useful. Also, the 600mm can be handheld by many of us for certain BIF situations, where a fixed 800mm is going to be too hard to track for most of us.

Looking at a flat test patern subject vs. a bird is not a realistic test of how most of us use these TCs most of the time.

You apparently can afford what you need, so I'd suggest considering the Series II version of the 600mm, combined with the Series III TCs. If you bought your 600mm new a year ago, you can probably sell it for about what you paid.

I just went though this myself, (Which long lens to buy), although I was upgrading from a 300 2.8 with TC's which is driving me nuts. PS. I am a bird photography NOVICE at present, just getting into the subject, as I normally shoot landscapes. So the below is from the 'research and pick one' angle, rather than experience. I shoot with a 1ds III & a 1d mkIV

One issue will be, getting one in Australia. Last week, I spoke to my dealer, plus every other Major Canon dealer in Aus, and the short answer was 'Nope, no stock, and Cannon has no stock, and no eta). This went for the 500, 600 and 800, and the Mk III TC's and ZERO clue on the 500 Mk II or 600 Mk II. Unfortunatly the major dealers also dont' carry them in Rental. (Kayell, L&P etc)

For better or worse, I am now waiting for UPS to show up with my 800 f5.6 plus pair of Mk III TC's from B&H. This was after looking at all the options, speaking to Art on email, plus availability of the MK II lenses. Lens kit wise, I am expecting to back that long lens up with the new 200-400 f4 with built in TC when it comes out, hopefully early next year.

Happy to discuss further if you'd like more detail on WHY I went this way.

Regards

Mark

PS: I'm in Adelaide. If your over this way and want to shoot sometime to see, happy to.

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Originally Posted by Doug Brown

There is simply no way that I would ever go for an 800 over a 600 f/4; this will be even more true when the new 600 comes out with its 3 pound weight savings. The 800 just isn't versatile enough; it's too long for many situations, and there's nothing you can do about that except back away from your subject (if you are able to). And you can never get f/4. On a Mark IV, the 600 gives you a 600mm f/4, an 840mm f/5.6, and a 1200mm f/8, all of which will AF on your body.

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Thanks for your comments so far guys!
Doug, I totally agree with you that the 600mm f4 is way more versatile. However, I forgot to mention a few important points:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
1. I own the Canon 300 f2.8 and the two new TC so I got 300, 420, 600 - all not bad at all.<o:p></o:p>
2. The 600 with the new x2 TC is almost useless for quick action as it takes ages to focus and tracking is not great.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>3. The 600 plus the new 1.4 is nice but still not as sharp as the 800 f5.6 (I assume - based on what I have seen from the 800).
Would love to hear what others think.
TC will always degrade the image and the AF performance on any camera so using a lens without a TC is quite appealing....<o:p></o:p>
Thanks guys! :w3
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Originally Posted by Ofer Levy

Thanks for your comments so far guys!
Doug, I totally agree with you that the 600mm f4 is way more versatile. However, I forgot to mention a few important points:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
1. I own the Canon 300 f2.8 and the two new TC so I got 300, 420, 600 - all not bad at all.<o:p></o:p>
2. The 600 with the new x2 TC is almost useless for quick action as it takes ages to focus and tracking is not great.<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>3. The 600 plus the new 1.4 is nice but still not as sharp as the 800 f5.6 (I assume - based on what I have seen from the 800).
Would love to hear what others think.
TC will always degrade the image and the AF performance on any camera so using a lens without a TC is quite appealing....<o:p></o:p>
Thanks guys! :w3
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Hi Ofer. 1200mm of focal length is almost never great for fast action, but the combination of an 800 and a 1.4x will not be a speed demon when it comes to AF (as you are still dealing with a maximum aperture of f/8). Although I've used the 800 some and the 600 extensively, I've never done a side-by-side sharpness comparison of the 800 vs. the 600 + 1.4x. The 600 + TC is plenty sharp, but I suppose it's possible that the 800 has a sharpness edge.

For me to spend $10,000 plus on a lens, it needs perform best at the focal lengths that I spend most of my time at. I love a bare 600mm with its f/4 maximum aperture; it's what I use most. The 1.4x works well when I need it, and so does the 2x on the rare occasions that I need extreme reach.

I suspect that when the new 600 comes out, you won't have much trouble picking up a used 800mm; you might even be able to purchase Artie's! :S3:

Ofer
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With the improved performance of the new Canon TC's, another question you might ask is if you really need a 600mmF4 or 800mmF5.6? I suspect a lot of people will just go with the new 500mmF4 (lighter and quite a bit cheaper) and put on TC's as needed.

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Originally Posted by Peter Hawrylyshyn

Ofer
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With the improved performance of the new Canon TC's, another question you might ask is if you really need a 600mmF4 or 800mmF5.6? I suspect a lot of people will just go with the new 500mmF4 (lighter and quite a bit cheaper) and put on TC's as needed.

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Thanks again for your input guys!
I would love to hear from people who own the Canon 800 f5.6 as to the performance of this lens without the x1.4 converter and with it.

I upgraded from the 600mm to the 800mm for the following reasons and I do not regret it one bit:

1. Better quality and faster AF than the 600mm+1.4x combo
2. Lower weight and better weight distribution. I can hand hold the 800mm for long hikes.
3. Better IS (4 rather than 2 stops). Very important when hand holding at such lengths.
4. 800mm+1.4x is MUCH better than the 600mm+2x for AF speed and image quality.

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Originally Posted by Michael_Loizou

I upgraded from the 600mm to the 800mm for the following reasons and I do not regret it one bit:

1. Better quality and faster AF than the 600mm+1.4x combo
2. Lower weight and better weight distribution. I can hand hold the 800mm for long hikes.
3. Better IS (4 rather than 2 stops). Very important when hand holding at such lengths.
4. 800mm+1.4x is MUCH better than the 600mm+2x for AF speed and image quality.

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Thanks Michael -I tend to agree with all your arguments...:w3

Ofer, don't forget that those arguments are only true for the 600mm IS, with the new 600mm IS II none of the arguments will be true (except maybe the image quality with the 2X TC, that we still don't know).

1- new 600mm IS II will comunicate with the new TC III with a special microship to improve AF speed.
2- new 600mm IS II is less weight than the 800mm.
3- new 600mm IS II is same IS of 4 stops like 800mm.
4- about image quality with TC will see who's the winner when the new 600mm IS II arrive...

I had opportunity to test the new 500mm and 600mm in a canon Portugal workshop with Jonathan and Angela Scott, canon CPN bring the new beauties fot testings, all I can say is that they are amazingly fast focusing and amazingly light. I took my 600mm IS and had oportunity to compare the height, and it seams the new 600mm was a plastic replic of my 600mm...

Thanks Humberto, I guess the best thing I can do is wait till the new 600 comes out.
Thanks everyone!:w3

[QUOTE=Humberto Ramos;664651]Ofer, don't forget that those arguments are only true for the 600mm IS, with the new 600mm IS II none of the arguments will be true (except maybe the image quality with the 2X TC, that we still don't know).

1- new 600mm IS II will comunicate with the new TC III with a special microship to improve AF speed.
2- new 600mm IS II is less weight than the 800mm.
3- new 600mm IS II is same IS of 4 stops like 800mm.
4- about image quality with TC will see who's the winner when the new 600mm IS II arrive...

QUOTE]

On your point #1 Canon doesn't claim improved AF speed, only accuracy. In fact they they state the same 50% reduction in AF speed for the 1.4x and 75% reduction in AF speed for the 2x aw with the MkII converters.

Should be interesting when the new lenses finally show up!

Ofer,

I had all 3 of them at one time, the 500mm, 600mm and 800mm. In the end I sold the 500mm and 600mm and bought a second 800mm for my wife because of weight, better optics and newer IS.

However, with the new 600mm I am sure this will be all moot. Where I shoot in Malaysia I still have the 1.4 II extender on most of the time and with technique I can get very good sharpness even with ridiculously shutter speeds 1/10s to 1/20s at times.

Yes, the lens will not be as fast obviously at f/5.6 but with the better ISO performance these days of the newer cameras I do not find that I am handicapped at f/5.6.