Classes vs. Equipment

What do folks think about the relative order of investing in classes/conferences/trips vs. equipment? For instance, consider Arthur's upcoming IPT Florida trip in February. It's $2899 for 6 days, and sounds like a lot of fun. However, after accounting for airfare, hotel, car rentals, meals etc. (not to mention a week's worth of vacation time) we're talking about enough money for a 400mm f/4 DO lens or a 1D Mark IV. An international trip would more than cover an 800mm f/5.6 lens. Closer to home I could take one of several Photoshop classes I've been looking at, or buy the 300mm f/4 lens I want for flying insects this summer.

These are all useful things, and I'm lucky enough that I can probably afford them over the next five or so years, but not all at once. The question is which to go for first. I.e. do I invest in equipment before technique or vice versa?

Renting big lenses/cameras just to take classes feels like a waste of money compared to buying them. On the other hand, putting off lens/camera purchases for a year or two means there may well be better options for less money (at least for the bodies; new lenses seem to be better for more money).

My gut says go with the equipment first. What I shoot with now (50D, 400mm f/5.6) doesn't meet what Artie et al implicitly think of as the minimum requirements for most work. And I do see that when I rent bigger lenses, I get better results so I'm not technique limited, whereas there are definitely shots I can't get because I just don't have the reach/speed/IS/megapixels. Also, free time is a concern (i.e. I'm not retired) and new equipment is the quickest way to upgrade my photos. Of course, I do have a lot left to learn, and I'm certain that an IPT or equivalent would teach me much; but would it be so much that it's worth putting off a big lens or a 1D body for a year?

My gut says go with the equipment first. Gut feeling can be wrong. :)
I know golfers who purchased their clubs first and then took lessons. By the time they took the lessons, the golfers had already "grooved" a bad swing.

What I shoot with now (50D, 400mm f/5.6) doesn't meet what Artie et al implicitly think of as the minimum requirements for most work. An old drag racing adage is "run what ya brung". Meaning make the best of what you have. Artie is the kind of guy who would trade gear with you for the day and then have impartial judges decide who made the best images that day. Winner keeps his and the losers gear. Artie has never lost any gear that way.

What I'm saying is that photographic principles are the same regardless of your equipment.
You will learn the photographic principles and you will learn how to make images with a 50D and 400 5.6 that you didn't think were possible.

James

This is a tough one to answer because I have never gone to a nature workshop but have been to plenty of portrait workshops.

With that said, when I started going to workshops years ago I had very little equipment but I always came home learning something that made me want to work harder and buy the equipment to advance.

Also, the new friendships you make along with the knowledge you will learn from others is usually worth it's weight in gold.

A 50D and 400 f5.6 is not a bad combo. A bigger lens for little birds or a macro for little bugs would be nice, but you can make some fine images with what you have.

Go to the NANPA Summit in south Texas and maybe do a workshop before or after.:D

Elliotte, as someone whose main gear is the 40D and 100-400 lens I'd say go for the courses/workshops. I'm self-taught photography-wise, but if I had to start it over I'd definitely go for lessons of some sort. Your images will improve much faster this way than upgrading your gear (which is already fine gear BTW!). I have never heard Artie (et al) say that 50D and 400 f/5.6 does not meet minimum requirements...that would put me in big trouble!!:p

Elliotte:

I have faced the same choices, and always thought as you do, buy gear, not training. I had been a photographer for 30 years before I got serious about birds, had a pretty good grasp on the technical side of things.

But, I have to say that my bird photography really took off after attending an IPT with Artie three years ago.
There is a certain dynamic, a mixture of learning,inspiration, camaraderie,enthusiasm that is hard to put a dollar value on, but for me it was pretty heady stuff.

A lot depends on how you learn, and I have always been a self teacher, but I felt the IPT was money very well spent. When I go back and look at my images from before the IPT, and now, I would like to think there has been a bit of improvement!:)

BPN is of course another great learning place, but nothing beats face to face for me.

I am biased based on my positive experiences, but for many people I think the learning is more important early on than the equipment.

Mr. Cadieux as well as many others have shown what outstanding results can be generated with modest gear. But, you need to know how to make the most of any piece of gear, learn fieldcraft, lear about light, etc.

Cheers

Randy

Another vote for at least a workshop or two first. My wife and I have done 3 workshops, and we're about to do 2 more. Admittedly we're not very gear limited. But the chance to learn from others both about photography in general and specific areas, and simply meet others, is really worthwhile.

Keep in mind that your 50D + 400 f/5.6 is in the ballpark of a 640 f/5.6 in the film days and probably delivers better images. There have been multiple times in Florida where I thought 400mm on a D700 was too long, I was really glad to have the 200-400. Look at all the great shots people get with a 70-200. And the recent posts from Artie Morris about loving the 70-200 with TCs. Be patient, I'll bet lots of used 500 f/4 lenses will come on the market in the next year or so, once Canon starts shipping the new ones.

I would also go for a workshop. The new friends, knowledge, and images you take away are more valuable than a piece of glass IMO. Also on many workshops, people will let you borrow their lenses for a short time, letting you try different focal lengths out.

Good photographers make good images with whatever gear they have, and upgrading cameras and lenses is not necessarily going to improve your images. I own and use only a 50D, and a 100-400. Very similar to your combo. Every now and then, I am frustrated by the shorter focal length, however it is capable of making many great images, and with patience and persistence, there is little it is not capable of.

Keep in mind also that you don't have to take a 6 day workshop...many (including Artie) offer 1/2 or full day workshops. Even taking just one (or a few) of those your photography will improve by leaps and bounds...if not on the camera technical side, at least on tips and tricks related to the very specialized photography discipline which bird/nature photography is.

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Originally Posted by Aidan Briggs

I own and use only a 50D, and a 100-400. Very similar to your combo. Every now and then, I am frustrated by the shorter focal length, however it is capable of making many great images, and with patience and persistence, there is little it is not capable of.

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Elliotte: If you have any doubts, take a look at Aidan's Flikr portfolio! The link is in his reply.

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Originally Posted by Daniel Cadieux

Keep in mind also that you don't have to take a 6 day workshop...many (including Artie) offer 1/2 or full day workshops. Even taking just one (or a few) of those your photography will improve by leaps and bounds...if not on the camera technical side, at least on tips and tricks related to the very specialized photography discipline which bird/nature photography is.

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I'd certainly be interested in half day and full day workshops, but they'd have to be local to me. It just doesn't make sense to fly across the country for just a day.

I have found a couple of workshops that focus on closer, larger subjects--i.e. where 500mm would probably be too much lens. I may try those first.

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Originally Posted by Elliotte Rusty Harold

What do folks think about the relative order of investing in classes/conferences/trips vs. equipment? For instance, consider Arthur's upcoming IPT Florida trip in February. It's $2899 for 6 days, and sounds like a lot of fun. However, after accounting for airfare, hotel, car rentals, meals etc. (not to mention a week's worth of vacation time) we're talking about enough money for a 400mm f/4 DO lens or a 1D Mark IV. An international trip would more than cover an 800mm f/5.6 lens. Closer to home I could take one of several Photoshop classes I've been looking at, or buy the 300mm f/4 lens I want for flying insects this summer.

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Allow me to be politically incorrect :):)

Buy the gear, especially if you can get that 800f5.6. Although you can shoot birds with shorter lenses, a longer lens can offer you opportunities that you couldn't have before. I've seen that happen to other people's photographs without them taking any extra courses.

What is local? Let us know and maybe others who live near you can suggest places to go.

Even for a short workshop you can combine the time with vacation. Hang around after the workshop to shoot in the same places. Don't forget the BAA site guides. My wife and I spent a great week in Florida last February. Most of the time on our own using the SW Florida guide, and 2 1/2 days in the middle in a private workshop.

How do you learn for me I was able to pick up the technical side by reading everything I could get my hands on first with film cameras then when I went digital photo shop. Once I understood how to make images places like BPN and other forums helped me learn the aesthetics needed to make my images even better. Again speaking only for myself the money I spent on my 500 f/4 improved my photography far more then any workshop would have. Also one more thing if you do decide on doing workshops make sure you take them from an established teacher with years of experience there are a lot of people breaking into the business who will not give you the best return for your money.

Purchase the equipment you want, join your local camera club if there is one and network. There might not be an abundance of bird or wildlife photographer members but there will undoubtedly be those that can instruct you in the fundamentals of other genres that will only help to improve the discipline you choose to concentrate on.

Its not the wand - its the wizard. The best way to learn how to fly fish is to go with someone who can teach you. You then can work on your approach. A more expensive rod never brings in bigger fish. Plus, when you do then upgrade, you really notice the difference.

Go for the class. I'm trying to get to one myself.

Elliote, this is a tough one. I have been shooting birds with with 40D and 400 f5.6L for a little over an year.....mostly self-taught and help from BPN etc.. You can check my website.

There are many things I can do with the gear but then there are so many things that I cannot do...AF, reach, light-wise. And I am sure, with a workshop I can do what I do now much better.....so IMO, all... big glass, better body, good workshop are game changers...so good luck with your decision making :-) I'd say go with your gut feel and then dont second guess :-)

Local for me is New York City. They're a few classes here throughout the year through NYC Audubon, and I'm signed up for one next weekend. However most photographers in the city tend to focus on more urban subjects. In this market 100mm is considered a long lens. :-)

To try to plan a few things out, I've put together a calendar of relevant classes, tours, and conferences in the United States this year starting next month. It includes both photo specific events and general birding events. The Agenda view is probably most useful. Interestingly there doesn't seem to be anything happening anywhere in June. I wonder why that is?

I didn't enter all events I knew about. In particular I left out ones I knew I wasn't interested in; e.g. one-day sessions on the other side of the country. However, if anyone wants to add additional events, drop me a line and I'll share the calendar with you. You will need a Google account to do this.

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Originally Posted by Desmond Chan

Allow me to be politically incorrect :):)

Buy the gear, especially if you can get that 800f5.6. Although you can shoot birds with shorter lenses, a longer lens can offer you opportunities that you couldn't have before. I've seen that happen to other people's photographs without them taking any extra courses.

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Would you fly a plane before taking lessons? Drive a car? Depending on your level already.....not a wise choice to buy the 800mm until you can honestly asses your ability! I say rent the thing.....take a workshop.....then see if it is right gear for you. I have seen way too many bad images with great equipment to ever feel that is the right move.

I do really like Mike Tacy's idea....as there are plenty of Camera Clubs in or around NYC with some focusing on nature photography. Seek and you will find!

Elliotte,

Thee are other camera clubs around NYC. For example NWPLI located on LI with a focus on birds and nature. We meet the first Thursday of the month at Bayshore High School at 7pm. Many folks drive from NYC or Westchester to attend.

http://www.nwpli.com/photo/index.php



Bob

Elliotte,

I live in the SF Bay area, so I'm no personal help. Artie Morris has done workshops in the past at Nickerson Beach LI and maybe Barnegat NJ. I have a vague recollection of seeing a mention of private 1/2 or full days also in one of his emails last year. Denise Ippolito is one of the BPN moderators, she co-wrote the BAA Barnegat guide. She offers a variety of workshops in the NY/NJ area: http://deniseippolito.com/workshops/

Alan

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Originally Posted by Roman Kurywczak

Depending on your level already.....not a wise choice to buy the 800mm until you can honestly asses your ability!

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Haha...my answer was simplistic, was it? I knew and it was no different than, imo, a response along the line of "there's nothing better than learning from a master" :)

Seriously, I agreed that whether taking classes is the right thing to do depends on a person's ability at the moment. The kinds of classes that are available should also be considered since there's not much point going to classes designed for beginners when one is already at the advanced level...unless one values more the opportunity to meet with the master, talk with the master and see with one's own eyes how a master does things :)

Of course the cost, the location, and the teacher matter, too.

Then again, many people did learn photography by themselves. You know...books, videos (how come some of the masters here don't have videos??:confused:), forums such as this one, blogs, etc., etc.

Quite a variety of opinions; and there should be, since the answer isn't cut-and-dried. Elliotte, I'm going to assume that you've made enough use of the long lenses you rented to know what you can and can't get out of them, with your present skill level. Let's also assume that most of your images are well-composed, correctly exposed, and focused properly; in other words, you're pretty advanced, technically.

Now, the next question is, how often do you shoot in situations where you have little or no cover, and/or you can use a tripod in the open without disturbing your subjects, or shoot from a blind? How often do you shoot in situations where you absolutely can't get within 20-30 feet of your subject, due to safety concerns/regulations, or because there's a barrier (like water too deep to wade) that you can't get across or around? How often do you shoot small subjects (think warbler size)? The more of these questions you can honestly answer "very often", the more you can reasonably say the reach of the 400 you have on a crop sensor camera might be holding you back. Just remember that to get the most out of any long lens, you have to be able to work in close with it when the situation permits, and that no matter how big the glass, there will always be those shots that are "just out of range".

The next logical step up equipment wise would probably be the 500 f4, and a 1.4 T/C. If you can find a used or refurbished 500, you might just save enough to be able to attend a local workshop or two; that might be the best of both worlds. I also like the idea of joining a local camera club. Whatever you decide, make a commitment to yourself to keep learning, whenever you can, however you can; that's a life-long enterprise.

I could write reams on the question above, and the comments.

Here's the short answer: virtually every IPT sells out. Most trips attract 40-60% repeat clients. Folks even attend the same tour two or more years in a row....

Somebody must be learning something....

There are lots of great bird photographers around today who never attended an IPT. There are several really fabulous ones who attended several when they were just starting out. Heck, I can even claim Aiden Briggs as a student :

When I was a beginner I took one course in nature photography, 2 hours for each of 8 whole Tuesday nights....

Over the past three years I have attended two workshops as a participant and have three more on the schedule....

You can learn a lot from local folks but there are no local folks that have the knowledge and experience that I do. And furthermore, of the very few folks who can approach my levels of knowledge and experience there are a very few who could shine my shoes when it comes to teaching (he said modestly) :)

But I agree that different folks learn better in different ways.

Last straw in my cap: the original "The Art of Bird Photography" inspired and taught many of today's best bird photographers.....

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Originally Posted by Arthur Morris

....... You can learn a lot from local folks but there are no local folks that have the knowledge and experience that I do. And furthermore, of the very few folks who can approach my levels of knowledge and experience there are a very few who could shine my shoes when it comes to teaching (he said modestly) :) ......

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Interesting observation Artie.......this site is called .BPN.... it ain't just birds....so I am guessing you are just speaking about bird photogrpahy with the above statement:D......because I do agree with this one 100%: "The Art of Bird Photography" inspired and taught many of today's best bird photographers. Generalizations are often very dangerous.:wh

Well, I certainly could not teach folks much about making good images of the night skies with spectacular foregrounds. As far as BPN is concerned, it is an amazing educational resource for those who wish to do the work, to study and learn, to post and to critique.

Does anyone wish to hazard a guess as to who came up with the idea of honest critiques done gently?

Just checking! Since I know the answer to the next one......we'll see if others can guess.

I think it depends on the person and their personality. Some people do better with one on one training and some people do better in groups. Some people learn better in classroom situations and some people learn more from hands-on training. I think it all depends on the person whether or not a workshop will work for them. But I do think that knowledge is your best tool.

I wouldn't be so sure that new equipment is going to upgrade your photos. Most good photographers can take good pictures with just about any equipment within reason. I spent 2 years leaning and photographing with the 300 F4 and the 1.4 before I would allow myself to buy a bigger, more expensive lens.

If I were you, I would spend as much time as possible reviewing the photography forums; posting and responding to other pictures in teh forums; going to seminars; joinging a camera club and making acquaintances with other like photographers. You don't have to spend thousands of dollars on workshops to learn a lot. Do some research and find a workshop or private lessons that work for you.

Also remember that the photography is only part of the battle...processing is the other part of the equation. These days you cannot produce good work unless you become proficient at post processing as well, and it pays to read, practice and take lessons/classes.

I agree that renting a lens or borrowing a lens and testing it before you spend mucho bucks makes sense. It's much easier to know what equipment you realy need and want after you have been photographing for a while and have some experience.

Good luck!

Marina

You can attend seminars and conferences like the ST Aug birding Festival to get your feet wet while still acquiring equipment. There are many similar events held across the country.

Best,

Chas