Why Canon or Nikon?

Emotions aside, is there a difference between Canon and Nikon?

I have a Canon 40D body and only one Canon L lens. But right now I am so ticked off at Canon that I am wondering if now would be the time to switch to Nikon. But is Nikon built any better?

I have a 40D and it is one its THIRD SHUTTER ASSEMBLY!! The second assembly lasted only 10 months! Canon said it is no longer under warranty and is charging me $200. just to look at it! I have no idea how much the repair/replacement charge will be on top of that. When the first shutter assembly wore out, it had 70,000 activations on it at 14 months old. I did not keep track of the activations on the second assembly since I was trying to shoot less. But come on, what good is a camera if you worry about how many times you take a photo??

Switch companies? shoot less? or what? I would love to hear your experiences especially from others who shoot a lot. I really can't afford a pro camera, so am I stuck with having to replace the shutter yearly??? Or am I expecting too much from my camera?? I am surprised at how much this has affected me, but before I do something stupid, I thought I would ask the brain trust here.

Thanks!

Canon rates the shutter life on the 40D at 100,000 actuation's the same amount Nikon rates the D90 at,
the 7D is rated at 150,000 the same amount as the D300, and the Mark III is rated at 300,00 I did not bother searching for the D3 number since I assume it will be around the same as the Mark III. These ratings are only averages and individual cameras will vary so I am not sure switching to Nikon will resolve this issues for you unless you step up to a pro camera.
Incidentally I recently had the shutter fixed on my 40D which was 3 months out of warranty I sent it in with a letter asking them to consider fixing it under warranty which they did and this was not the first time Canon USA has fixed something for me free that was out of warranty.

Emotions aside, is there a difference between Canon and Nikon?

Ergonomics!
They keep leap frogging each other on technology and sometimes equipment quality.

I use Nikon because it feels best in my hand. If you owned a D100 in the past, you could use a D3x without reading the manual. Granted you would not know all of the D3X's new functions, but you would be able to make images and navigate the menu.

Thank you, Don and James!

Does Nikon last longer than Canon?
Neither of my shutter assemblies on my 40D made it to their claim of 100,000. The first one made it to barely 70,000. The second one made it to 67,248. Far cry from 100,000.

I wish there was a place around here where I could handle equivalent Nikons.

I do not mean to start a Nikon vs Canon "war". So if anyone would rather contact me off list, that works for me.

Don, where do you get the number of 100,000 for the 40D?

Cheryl; I have owned both the Nikon and Canon systems; both are excellent systems. The following is my opinion.

You are using a consumer based camera (40D). The prosumer (5D and 7D series) and pro camera (1D series) will stand up better to the use you are subjecting to the camera. I agree it seems your camera has a shortened life for the shutter; 67K seems a bit low for a failed shutter, maybe this particular camera has problems.

I agree with James, the biggest consideration is how the camera works for you. I changed systems (from Canon to Nikon) because of my frustration with Canon quality control, AF issues, etc. Nikon has plenty of their own issues. I do find the prosumer Nikon (D300s) to be much better quality than the Canon prosumer or consumer models.

Please remember, Nikon is more expensive; both lenses and bodies will cost 10-25% more.

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Originally Posted by Cheryl Flory

Don, where do you get the number of 100,000 for the 40D?

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It's in Canon's white-paper for the camera.

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Originally Posted by Cheryl Flory

shoot less?

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IMO, this.

Based on going though a shutter a year @ ~70K frames per shutter, you're shooing on average 191 frames a day, every day or almost 1350 frames a weekend, every weekend. That you've already gone though 2 shutters means you've shot and downloaded about 140K files or over 1.4TB of data! :eek:

Are you really keeping all of them? If not, maybe you can't figure out a commonality in the rejects and use that to avoid shooting them in the first place.

In the last year I've made it a point to practice better shutter discipline, mostly because I find I have a hard time editing huge shoots. Paying more attention to light and pose has cut my frame count down considerably. Not re-shooting the same pose over and over has probably saved even more.

I have to second the sentiment that given your shooting levels you should look at a 7D at least. Especially if your repair estimate is any appreciable amount of the price. I also agree, your shutter seems to be consistently failing prematurely and that may be a sign of a larger problem with the camera or something in your handling of it.

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Originally Posted by James Shadle

Emotions aside, is there a difference between Canon and Nikon?

If you owned a D100 in the past, you could use a D3x without reading the manual. Granted you would not know all of the D3X's new functions, but you would be able to make images and navigate the menu.

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I would suggest the same is true with a Canon.

Although Canon has been more aggressive at improving the user interface, I would characterize it the same as you do Nikon. If you've used a Canon camera (P&S included) you should be able to pick up and understand the majority of functions and icons on a Canon SLR and take pictures with it.

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Originally Posted by Cheryl Flory

Don, where do you get the number of 100,000 for the 40D?

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I found this on DP http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/re...ssage=33148036 which is what I remember reading elsewhere, I also think it is listed on the press release when the camera was announced. I found the Nikon numbers from doing Goggle searches.

Hi Cheryl. Both systems have their supporters and critics. Nikon has leveled the playing field with its bodies and lenses produced over the last 2 years. I would consider myself to be a heavy user, and I've yet to replace a shutter assembly on any Canon body. My Mark III is 3 years old and probably has 250,000 to 300,000 shutter actuations.

I think the 7D has excellent construction and compares favorably to the Nikon D300s in that department. It also has a shutter rated at 150,000 actuations.

The shutter actuation statistics given by camera companies are means or averages, not minima. Some shutters will live longer than the number quoted, some will die sooner. In your case Cheryl- two died sooner than the quoted 100,000, If you work out the odds of this happening with a sample size of just two shutters, it is not an unlikely outcome, unlucky maybe, but not unlikely.

Why Canon

800/5.6L IS. :)

HI Cheryl - Having SOLD both systems for a number of years and dealt with both companies in my experiences at this point in time - I find Nikon to be better.

My main issue with Canon is their total arrogance as a company - the seem to have the mentality that the canon name means they dont have to worry too much about what anyone thinks.

Heres what I mean - I sold a 450D twin lens kit to a customer - she came back in the next day and could not get the camera to work (Error 99) so being the good retailer I am - I said no worries - here is another one - you take this one and I will work it out with Canon. She was happy - Next day she brings the camera back in - Error 99 wont work (Totally different camera and lenses) - NOT HAPPY - Understandably.

So I call Canon explain whats happening to them - They tell me to just keep giving her new ones until she gets one that works, I explain to Canon that the customer is past it - SHE DOES not want the camera now - they tell me that doesnt really matter.
I apologise profusely to the customer and give her a refund and she is happy but sure wont buy a canon camera ever again. Worst company to deal with for repairs as well. (Best - PENTAX)

Hope its different over there!!

Ok to answer the question (all tongue in cheek by the way!!!!!, well except for 1.)-

Canon

1. Scroll-wheel on back
2. No plastic cover for the rear LCD
3. No funny red rubber body-part under the shutter release (what is that thing for anyway?)
4. 500/4 stabilized lenses that you can actually buy (i.e., not back-ordered)
5. > 12 mp sensors

etc

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Originally Posted by John Chardine

Ok to answer the question (all tongue in cheek by the way!!!!!, well except for 1.)-

1. Scroll-wheel on back
2. No plastic cover for the rear LCD
3. No funny red rubber body-part under the shutter release (what is that thing for anyway?)
4. 500/4 stabilized lenses that you can actually buy (i.e., not back-ordered)
5. > 12 mp sensors

etc

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Nikon

1. Multi Selector on back
2. Plastic cover for the rear LCD, until I through it away(immediately)
3. Advanced styling with red accents
   
4. OK you've got a point there
5. Which is greater 22 or 24.5?

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Originally Posted by James Shadle

Nikon

1. Multi Selector on back
2. Plastic cover for the rear LCD, until I through it away(immediately)
3. Advanced styling with red accents
   
4. OK you've got a point there
5. Which is greater 22 or 24.5?

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Regarding #4, B&H has the 500 in stock (and has for some time). You just have to be willing to pay $8.5k for it. The Canon is currently cheaper and is even available second hand for ~$5500. When Canon replaces this lens, it'll likely be $8k or $8.5k.

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Originally Posted by James Shadle

Nikon
[*]OK you've got a point there

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:):):):):)

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Originally Posted by James Shadle

Nikon

1. Multi Selector on back
2. Plastic cover for the rear LCD, until I through it away(immediately)
3. Advanced styling with red accents
   
4. OK you've got a point there
5. Which is greater 22 or 24.5?

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Good one James. Touché!

Sorry I forgot the D3x. I guess everyone else has too!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Cheryl Flory

Emotions aside, is there a difference between Canon and Nikon?

I have a Canon 40D body and only one Canon L lens. But right now I am so ticked off at Canon that I am wondering if now would be the time to switch to Nikon. But is Nikon built any better?

I have a 40D and it is one its THIRD SHUTTER ASSEMBLY!! The second assembly lasted only 10 months! Canon said it is no longer under warranty and is charging me $200. just to look at it! I have no idea how much the repair/replacement charge will be on top of that. When the first shutter assembly wore out, it had 70,000 activations on it at 14 months old. I did not keep track of the activations on the second assembly since I was trying to shoot less. But come on, what good is a camera if you worry about how many times you take a photo??

Switch companies? shoot less? or what? I would love to hear your experiences especially from others who shoot a lot. I really can't afford a pro camera, so am I stuck with having to replace the shutter yearly??? Or am I expecting too much from my camera?? I am surprised at how much this has affected me, but before I do something stupid, I thought I would ask the brain trust here.

Thanks!

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Your 40D was a lemon-you can get one with any company. After the 1st shutter was replaced the best option would have been an upgrade with the Canon loyalty program or sell it online. I picked up a used 20D with over 100,000 clicks,put another 20,000 or so on it and sold it again-it's still running the orig shutter. I've never heard of a shutter going out on a xxd body under 100,000 clicks. Processors burn out? Yes.
Canon has their fingers in so many products that cameras take a back seat at some times. If all they focused on was cameras and nothing else? forget it,game over,waaaay to big of a corporation for Nikon to joust against.
Both are leaders,but Canon is such a hugeantic corporation it's resources are virtually limitless.

I liken the Canon/Nikon deal to this"

Canon=PC. Hugely popular despite shortcomings,more affordable
Nikon=Mac. Smaller,cultish following,more money for equal or less performance
Think what Canon's engineers could do with the DSLR line if they didn't have to roll out 25 new p/s cameras every 12 months.:D

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Originally Posted by John Chardine

Ok to answer the question (all tongue in cheek by the way!!!!!, well except for 1.)-

Canon

1. Scroll-wheel on back
2. No plastic cover for the rear LCD
3. No funny red rubber body-part under the shutter release (what is that thing for anyway?)
4. 500/4 stabilized lenses that you can actually buy (i.e., not back-ordered)
5. > 12 mp sensors

etc

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6- Histograms without discernible borders :) ;)

I've had to replace a shutter on a Canon 1D Mark IIn. I've had two Nikons fail totally. In both cases, Nikon subsequently issued a recall (D70 and D2H). The D70 had the dreaded blinkies and the metering system failed on the D2H. I had only taken about 20,000 shots on the Mark IIn but the camera was out of warranty. The repair was done for about $225. None of these happenings persuaded me to go with one system or the other. I like certain lenses and use the bodies that accommodate them. I recently purchased a Nikon and just learned that a Canon 1D Mark IV is on the way. I like the ergonomics of the Nikon system better. I agree with James that there is better carryover from one Nikon to another. When I first shot with the Canon 5D Mark II, I overexposed several shots because the exposure compensation differed from my other Canons. I kept adjusting and things kept getting worse. Finally, I had to read the manual. That's not Canon's fault. It's mine. But I manage to get away with this sort of thing with Nikon.

The first 5D MKII that I bought last year in January had its shutter fail after less than 200 shots :eek: :D Actually the original 5D was notorious for its mirror dropping out and shutter failure. Canon did extend shutter and mirror replacement warranty on that body after many people complained given the original price of the 5D although Canon never stated a particular life expectancy for original 5D shutter. Some people were still sending their cameras for shutter replacement two or three years after they had originally bought it and in many cases Canon did replace the shutter/mirror for free. Given that most users of XXD cameras are amateurs and the original price of the camera wasn't that high Canon will likely not offer such service for these cameras.

The Canon XXD as well as 5D/5DII series are somewhat consumer level cameras as far weather sealing, shutter and mirror box mechanical reliability are concerned. They are below Nikon DXXX series in terms of performance and reliability, however the new 7D is up in par with D300. Its shutter mechanism is much better damped and mirror box is a replica of 1 series so that it can achieve 8 fps like the older 1DMKII. If you want to take 100,000+ photos a year the best choice if you want to stay with Canon is the 7D or a 1 series camera. 7D and D300s are comparable in performance and price 7D being about $200 more expensive mainly because of its full HD video function and higher resolution. You would be happy with either one.

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Originally Posted by Aaron Lee

Nikon=...cultish following,

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Are you serious about that comment?

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Originally Posted by Desmond Chan

Are you serious about that comment?

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Yes,quite.

I take it you have not been around alot of photojournalists or event shooters?:)

I'm not really partial to a particular brand. The camera just has to accomplish what I need it to accomplish. Several years ago, I worked as a photographer for a business weekly. I shot all of my assignments with the Hasselblad 500CM because they wanted the quality that was produced by that particular set-up. Also, it became a conversation piece during the photo shoot. Now, I photograph wildlife, and I needed a camera that was fast in autofocus, processing, and advance. I chose the D300s. Lately, I've been interested in capturing landscapes, and I'll likely add a Canon 5D to my lineup. I'll only buy long lenses for the Nikon and short ones for the Canon.

Cheryl, I see your also in S.E. Michigan as I am. Have you heard of Camera Mart in Pontiac? They will have all of the Nikon bodies and Canon bodies in stock to check out.
I shoot Nikon but the latest Canon releases, 7D and Mk IV look to be very nice.Also Canon lenses are more affordable and plentiful especially when buying used. Something to consider if your considering any long glass.

Scott

Thanks, Scott.

Thank you, everyone who took the time to reply. I really do appreciate it.

Apparently, I had a lot of unrealistic expectations of photography.

I started with Nikon back in the film days when they came out with autofocus, which helped my eyesight. I am continued with nikon to my present camaere D300s. I have tried the canon and liked it but with all the money I had tied up in lenses I stuck with Nikon... You pay your money and take your choice

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Originally Posted by Aaron Lee

Yes,quite.

I take it you have not been around alot of photojournalists or event shooters?:)

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Actually, your comment tells me more about you yourself rather than the Nikon users you were referring to. And, Cheryl started this thread by saying: "Emotions aside..."

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Originally Posted by Desmond Chan

Actually, your comment tells me more about you yourself rather than the Nikon users you were referring to."

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Lol,I guess they didn't tell you enough because I own both systems.:p

Cheryl I went to Nikon for a year and a half and I'm back with Canon. Made the switch when the D3 came out, was able to get one of the first 600 VR in Country.

Quality wise there is not much difference ... but I like the Canon lens line up better and prices do make a difference. Good luck !!

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Originally Posted by Bill Ragan

I'm not really partial to a particular brand. The camera just has to accomplish what I need it to accomplish. Several years ago, I worked as a photographer for a business weekly. I shot all of my assignments with the Hasselblad 500CM because they wanted the quality that was produced by that particular set-up. Also, it became a conversation piece during the photo shoot. Now, I photograph wildlife, and I needed a camera that was fast in autofocus, processing, and advance. I chose the D300s. Lately, I've been interested in capturing landscapes, and I'll likely add a Canon 5D to my lineup. I'll only buy long lenses for the Nikon and short ones for the Canon.

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Bill, it should be the other way around. Long lenses from Canon and more affordable and wide angle by Nikon are famous for quality. D3 imaque quality is cream and peaches, unless you ned the 21 MP in 5d2.
I tried keeping both systems, 600/4 by Canon and D3 and short lenses by Nikon but it became cumbersome for traveling and back ups.

I owned both systems for about 7 months last year, mostly to see how much of Nikon's latest offerings were hype and what was real. The D700 is a beautiful body, however the so called superior ergonomics of the Nikon UI are way, way overblown. The 14-24 is a gem of a lens and is unrivalled, for my purposes I found the Canon 17 TS-E to be as good and better in some ways. The difference between the Nikon 24-70 and the Canon 24-70 is also something that is way overblown. Shooting with both side by side the difference was fairly negligible with the Nikon having an edge at 70mm wide open. The biggest difference is in the QC (i.e. one needs to get a good copy of the 24-70 to be truly satisfied with its performance). The Nikon 200-400 is a superb lens and is a gem in Nikon's lineup. The Nikon 70-300 VR is a sleeper and is also very good, though optically speaking no better than the Canon 70-300 IS (the Nikon seemed better built to me). I wasn't very impressed with the 105 Micro VR.

IMO, Canon does have a larger selection of lenses, especially wide to mid primes. However you need to ask yourself if you'll actually splash out on those lenses. If you are a 3 zoom kind of shooter, the Nikon lens lineup will be very appealing.

Also Nikon and Canon have chosen to distinguish their flagship bodies in different ways. Canon is currently using AF and Nikon sensor resolution (we'll see if that changes). This will resonate with people differently depending on what they shoot. A landscape photographer will like the fact they can get a high resolution body for $2.5k, an event shooter will like the fact they can get a FF pro AF body for $2.5k. You have to figure out what is right for you. The 7D has come a long way to finally offering some real competition to the D300 so that not as glaring a segment difference as it used to be.

I ended up getting rid of my Nikon set up mostly because I needed the $10k that way wrapped up in it, however I am seriously considering adding some Nikon gear back again later this year.

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Originally Posted by Cheryl Flory

Emotions aside, is there a difference between Canon and Nikon?

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Of course there are differences. Just look at the color of the lenses :)

Seriously, other than the prices, quality-wise I don't think there's much difference between the two (which should be understandable if you think about it). So I think you can do well using either system.

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When the first shutter assembly wore out, it had 70,000 activations on it at 14 months old. I did not keep track of the activations on the second assembly since I was trying to shoot less. But come on, what good is a camera if you worry about how many times you take a photo?? Switch companies? shoot less? or what? [snip] I really can't afford a pro camera...

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I think back in the film days, most of us did not have to worry about wearing out the shutter. But I don't think the shutter then lasted forever, too. These days, many people are machine-gunning every time they press the shutter button. I know a guy who also had to send in his D300 to fix a problem with the shutter. My understanding though is it wasn't the wearing out of the shutter. So I'd say shooting less should help a bit in helping any camera last longer. I don't think you need to switch brand (I believe most folks here would like to see you stay with Canon ;)). After all, Nikon cameras do not last forever, too. But then, who is keeping a camera forever now :)

out of curiosity how did you take 70k activations in that time? thats a boatload for sure

personally I chose Canon just because I had Canon P&S cameras before, but I quickly learned that for birding Canon was the cheaper solution for telephoto lenses

I have nothing against Nikon I think they have nice equipment, but I agree with one the statements above about this ergonomic thing, I still do not understand why so many people say that Nikon is so much better in that regard

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Originally Posted by Jamie Strickland

I still do not understand why so many people say that Nikon is so much better in that regard

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So many "hands" are different; hence why some like the smaller bodies (Canon 5D or Nikon D300s); some have larger hands and the controls feel better (D3X), etc. For me, the controls for the Nikon bodies (D300s, D2x, D3s) feel better and more convenient.

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Originally Posted by john j. henderson

So many "hands" are different; hence why some like the smaller bodies (Canon 5D or Nikon D300s); some have larger hands and the controls feel better (D3X), etc. For me, the controls for the Nikon bodies (D300s, D2x, D3s) feel better and more convenient.

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Exactly !!

It's subjective and personal. It's about whatever feels right, feels comfortable to you. Logic and explanation not required.

Jamie, for me, as for many people I'm sure, photography is therapeutic. Every chance I get, for as long as I can, I am outside photographing. something, anything.

Lately its usually been deer or birds at a park. And like I read somewhere here, if you wait until you see the behavior you want, then you've missed it photographically, so there go a lot of wasted images. Last week my daughter and I went to a glass hot shop were we spent 3 days photoing the entire glass process from solid to molten to shaped artwork. Yes, most images are not saved. And being the only person I know around here with a camera, trial and error is how I am learning. I keep trying to find new things to photo, which means another set of experimenting on how much I can get from my limited equipment. Next week I will be photoing a blacksmith and some of the things I learned at the glass shop will help me there.

But apparently, I have just been unrealistic about what to expect from this level of camera.

I have just received the 40D back from Canon today. One note said the mirror box assembly was replaced. another note said the mirror box and shutter assembly was replace. I was charged for labor and shipping but not parts.

I greatly appreciate everyone's thoughts and their time to reply. It really did help.
Thanks!

I started with Canon and will not switch to Nikon. I know Nikos is very good at some point, but Canon feels better on my big hands and I like that feel...

Interesting debate. Cheryl, I would agree with your comment that maybe you had unrealistic expectations of that body. That's A LOT of wear and tear on that shutter in a year. I have a 50D and MK3. The MK3 is fantastic. Now that the Mk 4 is out, you might consider picking up a lightly used Mk3. I have had zero issues with either of my bodies. I used to use Minolta, then went to Sony when they bought their digital SLR line, then to Canon because Sony is very expensive and has very little choice in lenses and their customer service is horrible. My decision bewtween Canon and Nikon was based on lens availability and price. I honestly think Canon's customer service is one of the best I have ever dealt with. So, I think you should sell off that 40D and get a more durable body and click away. :)

thanks, Bryan. I would pick up a MK3 in a second! If I could afford it. :D

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Originally Posted by Cheryl Flory

thanks, Bryan. I would pick up a MK3 in a second! If I could afford it. :D

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Begin drinking cheap coffee and start a Mark III piggy bank. ;)