need help with 80-400

hello friends,

i've few question and want to know how to tune it out.

i am using d300 and nikon 80-400 combo.
till date shooting birds with this and was quite happy when i havent checked my images for print as was processing for web 72 dpi smaller 900px wide

now as i planned for some prints and checked the quality at 100% found it really bad at all.

my in camera setting for d300 was

Picture Control : Neutral with -1 contrast and 9 sharpness (which was i suppose wrong)
that produces sharp images for web but when looked at 100% it was all mess.

i took test today morning
http://kevincreation.com/issues/test.jpg

this is 100% crop

Focal Length : 400
Focus Mode : AFC
AF area mode : Single
VR : ON
AF Fine Tune : off
Aperture : f/6.3
Shutter Speed : 1/1250s
Exposure Mode : Aperture Priority
Exposure Comp : -0.7EV
Metering Mode : Spot
Iso : 200
White Balance : Auto
High ISO NR : OFF
Long EXPO NR : OFF
ACTIVE D-Lighting : OFF



Picture Profile : Neutral with -1 contrast and sharpness set to 0



i kept in camera sharpness 0 to check the focus and quality of details i get in focus and so i had enough speed on handheld i kept the aperture also little open.



please suggest me work arround to get some nice details to grab in birds.
i am not expecting the result that a prime can deliver but i found that here the focusing is the issue i suppose.

Mital I use a sharpening setting of 5 in my D300, but then make that less in post processing, like 3. I then after post processing use selective high pass sharpening in NX2 on the subject only. For output to print I use Niksoftware - Nik Sharpener. It applies sharpening according to type of paper chosen. The 80-400 is not known for its focusing speed, so that might be the issue also. I use the 70-300VR quite a bit. It has the newer AF and VR. Hope that helps.

thanks nancy that was so quick. but i am not in favor or position right now to change the dears.
need to evaluate the method i use that my give me better way instead juggling or bumping into another lens.

and surely i would not like 300 range for my location after using 400mm range.
and for higher ofcourse its a long way to make new budget.

Handheld or on a tripod? You show VR being ON. The 80-400 doesn't do well with VR on when using a tripod. Any time I have this lens on a tripod and forget to turn off VR I get sharpness problems. I've found the 80-400 to be quite acceptable on shots like the one you posted. Tough for BIF though.

One other to consider it the long end of the zoom, that lens does not perform at is sharpest when zoomed out to 400 !! Might wan to test !!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alan Melle

Handheld or on a tripod? You show VR being ON. The 80-400 doesn't do well with VR on when using a tripod. Any time I have this lens on a tripod and forget to turn off VR I get sharpness problems. I've found the 80-400 to be quite acceptable on shots like the one you posted.

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This is an important point. Also, for maximum sharpness I'd back off the zoom to around 375 mm. Finally, if you still have your image in the CF card, check the replay to ensure that the focus point brackets were actually on the bird, and not somewhere else.

Having the focus point firmly on the subject is absolutely critical.

Norm Dulak

hi mital, you say that the picture above is a 100% crop. for the finer details you need the bird a lot closer so that you do not have to crop. if you are looking for a great print, the bird needs to be as big in the frame at the time you take it as it is in the picture above. that will help a lot. never had the lens, but i hear stopping down a little helps. maybe f/8. i know it helps with my sigma 50-500. f/9 is a sweet spot for that lens even when fully extended to 500mm.

Hi Mital,

I'm a little confused. I use the same combination, and I have always been impressed with how sharp your posted pictures are. Admittedly they're generally downsized for the web, but presumably not by a huge amount. So I wonder what you have done differently with this one. I see that it was hand-held, but 1/1250 should be enough to stop movement, especially with VR on. I agree with Norm, could it be that you had inadvertantly focused on something else? Another point I notice, but I'm not sure whether it matters or not in this case - you have the Focus mode AF-C but AF area mode single. Normally if AF-C is selected, the AF area mode should be 9 or 21 points, as in AF-C mode the subject doesn't have to be in focus for the shutter to fire, and if the focus point is off the subject by even a small amount, the image will be out of focus. Finally, 100% crops are never as high quality as an uncropped or mildly cropped image, so that may be contributing. What does the uncropped image look like?

Cheers,

Richard

Cheers,

Richard

here is the test i've made yesterday on field

taken from the car window cushion on window

Focal Length : 400mm
Focus Mode : AF-C
AF-Area Mode : Dynamic, 9 points
VR : OFF
AF Fine Tune : Off

Aperture : F/8
Shutter Speed : 1/1250s
Exposure Mode: Aperture Priority
Exposure Compensation: -0.7 EV
Metering Mode: Spot
ISO Sensitivity: ISO 320
High ISO NR: OFF
Long Expo : OFF,

White Balance: Direct sunlight, 0, 0

Picture Control : NEUTRAL
Sharpening : 3
Contrast : -1
Brightness : 0
Saturation : 0
Hue : 0

here is the original shot as is untouched just exported from Capture NX RAW to JPG 100% quality
http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/BRS_5712.jpg
as per rule of posting small size i just giving link here

and Here is the 100% cropped from original
http://kevincreation.com/issues/BRC_5712_cropped.jpg


The problem mentioned is the quality of focus.. in this image the focus point was pointed on the face of the shrike.

experts please suggest me the way i can imrpove the quality of focus.
i think i am sure i am missing something or doing something wrong..

Mital
A few points for you,

A zoom lens is never as sharp as a prime lens and its sharpness will vary with focal length and aperture considerably. 80-400 is not a bad lens, it's optical quality is good but not great. If you want premium quality you need to move to a 300 f/4 AF-S +1.4X TC or above (200-400 or 500 f/4)

I assume you are using Nikon Capture NX2 for conversion of NEF files, NX2 is overall a very good program and it can do wonders but its sharpening algorithm for some reason is not very well optimized. All digital cameras require some amount of sharpening due to the optical low pass filter (sometimes called the blur filter) that is placed on the sensor so you need to apply some amount of sharpening. If you want crisper looking photos try using ACR (Light Room or PhotoShop) ans use (50,0.5,50) for sharpness, radius and detail values, but your colors may not be as good as NX2. If you want to use NX2 set sharpness to 3 or alternatively use the selection brush to paint the bird then apply Unsharp Mask with (35,5,0) parameters and see if you like the results.

thanks for the quick reply arash.

i am not comparing this lens to any of the prime.
just thought that it gives fuzzy images and so i started the discussion and trying to find if this is what others fell to be okay or need to do something different setting on my camera or lens ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by arash_hazeghi

Mital
A few points for you,

A zoom lens is never as sharp as a prime lens and its sharpness will vary with focal length and aperture considerably. 80-400 is not a bad lens, it's optical quality is good but not great. If you want premium quality you need to move to a 300 f/4 AF-S +1.4X TC or above (200-400 or 500 f/4)

I assume you are using Nikon Capture NX2 for conversion of NEF files, NX2 is overall a very good program and it can do wonders but its sharpening algorithm for some reason is not very well optimized. All digital cameras require some amount of sharpening due to the optical low pass filter (sometimes called the blur filter) that is placed on the sensor so you need to apply some amount of sharpening. If you want crisper looking photos try using ACR (Light Room or PhotoShop) ans use (50,0.5,50) for sharpness, radius and detail values, but your colors may not be as good as NX2. If you want to use NX2 set sharpness to 3 or alternatively use the selection brush to paint the bird then apply Unsharp Mask with (35,5,0) parameters and see if you like the results.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by mitalpatel

thanks for the quick reply arash.

i am not comparing this lens to any of the prime.
just thought that it gives fuzzy images and so i started the discussion and trying to find if this is what others fell to be okay or need to do something different setting on my camera or lens ?

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Mital,

Fuzzy is a relative term, what you have posted here is what I would expect from 80-400 using Nikon Capture NX2 with 0 sharpening, this is normal for this lens and does not indicate a defect or a problem with camera settings.

Hope this helps

btw the second image posted was having sharpness 3

I had a 80-400 for about a week - Id be darned if I get get a sharp shot out of it, nothing that I was happy with - I dont think it was user error I get sharp shots from my Sigmonster down to 1/60th a lot of the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mitalpatel

btw the second image posted was having sharpness 3

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sorry Mital I didn't see it was set to 3, in that case yes it is soft and I don't think it is a back/front focus issue because nothing in the photo seems to be sharper then the bird. To be 100% sure you can try a focus test chart and verify this in a more controlled way. If it is back or front focus issue you can correct this in camera, but if not unfortunately there is little you can do. Nikon really need to upgrade this lens soon.

first of all thanks a lot for your quick replies.

i did tried out the focus chart if you can guide me.

here are the links
Picture setting were :
Neutral with sharpness 3 and rest 0

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/+20.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/+15.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/+10.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/+05.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/0.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/-05.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/-10.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/-15.jpg

http://www.kevincreation.com/issues/-20.jpg

Mital looking at test results looks like the lens is slightly back focus at 0 settings, at -20 the center text looks sharpest. Try with -20 and see if you get any improvements in real world. The challenge with a zoom lens is that the AF adjustment is good for only one focal length at which you do the test, at other focal length different amounts of adjustment might be necessary.

oh okay.. would sure try out that soon and update the thread.

thanks a lot for evaluating this images and giving me guidance .. will post update soon.

Mital:

One final thought occurs to me.

You should check to ensure that your D300 is set up to require focus before the shutter trips. Go to shooting menu item a1, that controls AF-C priority selection. There are three choices: "Release", "Release + focus", and "Focus".

Make sure that you have selected "Focus" in setting menu item a1, because if you do not, your D300 will take the picture even if the focus is not sharp!

Norm Dulak

Mital,

Are you giving the VR time to spin up? It always half press for a couple of seconds minimum before taking a shot - I'm one of those folks who focus only with the AF button. I would go a bit further than Arash, the 80-400 has very good optics, its big flaw is not being AFS. I'm at Bosque this week, when I get back I'll try to remember to post a hand held shot showing fine feather detail.

I also shoot only raw, it sounds like you're shooting JPEG. I think in-camera sharpening of 3 might be lowish, have you tried higher?

hope this helps,
Alan

dear Alan, i never shoot jpg. and yes i do use VR giving it pre focus time with limit switch. earlier i used sharpness to 5 or 7 but that seems to be enhance noise all over so i reduced it to 3 as its in camera sharpening nothing else which i can add later in Post-processing also. now a days i use monopod with VR off many times except in flight. but still looking forward for settings and results what people getting.

it may possible that the light condition being harsh very soon in morning may be the course of fight with quality but sometimes i really get fantastic results over the same condition so i am confuse what to do.

i am still struggling with what to do and how to do and experimenting various settings.

Try this AF Fine tune method at 400mm and at the distance you normally shoot

http://photomatter.com/Reviews/NikonD300b.html

Regards