True bird photography vs "workshop photography" - your thoughts please...

[Ofer Levy]

Hi all,
Came across this video and I have to admit it made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't think this should be considered as bird photography and I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment. Very similar to tagging posted photos of captive birds. Even the workshops with wild birds where the instructor arranges everything and the participants only have to click - don't qualify as bird photography IMHO. It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

[Roger Clark]

Hi all,
Came across this video and I have to admit it made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't think this should be considered as bird photography and I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment. Very similar to tagging posted photos of captive birds. Even the workshops with wild birds where the instructor arranges everything and the participants only have to click - don't qualify as bird photography IMHO. It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

Interesting. I would also ask how many use calls? I have also heard passing references to calls on BPN and from other photographers. How many images on BPN were obtained with the use of calls? I would call the workshop event, as shown, practice.

(I have never used a call for obtaining a photo of any animal.)

Roger

[Ofer Levy]

Interesting. I would also ask how many use calls? I have also heard passing references to calls on BPN and from other photographers. How many images on BPN were obtained with the use of calls? I would call the workshop event, as shown, practice.

(I have never used a call for obtaining a photo of any animal.)

Roger
Hi Roger, please don't discuss the use of calls in here as it is totally irrelevant - you can start your own thread on the use of calls.
Cheers,
Ofer :w3

[Roger Clark]

Well,
Ofer, it seems calls are often used in workshops to get the birds to do something, whether a captive bird like in your video, or calling a wild bird. For example, read the first line of this thread posted today on BPN:
http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/95405-Great-Horned-Owl
So, it seems calling and/or baiting would be similar, as opposed to true wild photography. I think either should be disclosed.
If not, then what are you implying is true bird photography?

Roger

[Daniel Cadieux]

If these photos were labelled as "captive and controlled environment" I'd have zero issues with it. If they were passed as wild bird photos then that is something else and I would have a beef with that. Some people have no easy access to these types of birds and if that is how they can photograph them then so be it, all the power to them. I'm sure a good time was had by all of them, and I'm sure lots of them learned tons about photography too.

True birds + true photography = true bird photography:S3:

[Jim Neiger]

Ofer,

Like you, I don't really enjoy photographing captive birds and I don't include captives in my workshops. It takes the fun out of it for me when they are not wild and free. On the other hand, I see nothing wrong with it. It's probably a good way to learn a bit about action photography.

[Ofer Levy]

True birds + true photography = true bird photography:S3:

Hi Daniel,

In a zoo the birds are true and the photographey is true but it is ZOO PHOTOGRAPHY....

In a similar way, in those workshops the birds are true and the photography is true but it's WORKSHOP PHOTOGRAPHY and not BIRD PHOTOGRAPHY.

Bird photography is a much more complicated craft. which involves hard work, dedication, creativity and passion. Paying someone to do all the hard work for you is not what I consider true bird photography.

[arash_hazeghi]

I think this is more entertainment for participants than bird photography, anyone can pull a few frames of a captive bird flying at close range with a short lens and when the birds flies a given path over and over again. It doesn't require much skill and creativity in anticipation of action and planning for it, as Dan said it's probably a fun learning experience for those participants but the images have to be disclosed as captive for sure when asking for critique. Like Jim and Ofer I don't like photographing captive/trained birds or commenting on such photos.

[Roy Priest]

I think you are mistaking field craft for bird photography. Tell me the difference in technical skill needed to photograph birds at a workshop and tame birds at a beach for example. How about the loons at Lac le Jeune? The owls at boundary bay? Tell me the hard work needed to photograph breeding ducks and other birds that won't leave because of their youngsters.
Some of these posts are hypocritical as at least one of the posters leads or helps lead a workshop. If I do a setup in my backyard or in the woods is that "real" bird photography? Is it a workshop if I have a friend in the blind with me?
I think this post smacks of elitism. I have seen it before in other sports and hobbies I have had. If you don't do it my way you are not a "real" photographer, flyfisherman, falconer and the list goes on.

[dankearl]

I think it is what it is, a workshop.
Alan Murphy is one of the best photographers on this site.
He was teaching participants how to photograph BIF.
If somebody at his workshop posted one, I agree with you.
Simply conducting a workshop to teach people, is what it is, a workshop.
Nothing wrong with it in my opinion.

[James Shadle]

Ofer said:
"I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged"
I agree, images of captive animals should be marked as such.
Ofer said:
"It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name."
At the very least they are depriving themselves of exploring, thinking and creating, if this is the only type of photography they do. It's a different story if they are using it as a learning experience.
Ofer said:
"the use of calls in here as it is totally irrelevant"
I disagree, while it is not exactly the same it can be very similar.
Roy said:
Some of these posts are hypocritical as at least one of the posters leads or helps lead a workshop.
I conduct workshops and agree with Jim. Are you saying I'm a hypocrite?
If I do a setup in my backyard or in the woods is that "real" bird photography?
Why not, are the birds wild and free?
Is it a workshop if I have a friend in the blind with me?
It depends, are you teaching your friend and charging a fee? If so yes, otherwise no.

[Jay Gould]

Hi all,
Came across this video and I have to admit it made me feel uncomfortable. I really don't think this should be considered as bird photography and I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment. Very similar to tagging posted photos of captive birds. Even the workshops with wild birds where the instructor arranges everything and the participants only have to click - don't qualify as bird photography IMHO. It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

Mate, I got news for you! As a workshop junkie, I think that video shows a lot of students trying to learn a craft in a manner best suited for those students; nothing more!

Why have you stretch this video which is clearly labeled workshop, to suggest that the persons shooting in the workshop are going to post their images and pretend they were shot in the wild? The video I watch had nothing to do with posting; why add it to the discussion?

I have been on workshops with senior members of BPN and calls were used; so what?

You apparently have a problem with workshops where the subjects are brought to participants instead of the other way around. Why?

I have done critter workshops in Australia where snakes, lizards, etc were brought to a central location for closeup/macro photography; what is wrong with that?


Raptors in Flight Workshop



Where, in the video, or in the title of the video did it say they were engaging in "wild" bird photography?

How were you misled? Perhaps your time was wasted because you assumed that the workshop took place in the field; you knows what happens when you assume!

Sorry Ofer; I love your work; this time you are in left field.

[adrian dancy]

It is all covered here http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/87343-Please-Read-Before-Posting-The-First-Time-and-Then-From-Time-to-Time

I agree with Roger that the use of calls is relevant and the administrators think so also, they have covered the issue. You will often see AM requesting folk to disclose relevant facts in the Avian Forum.

Raptor workshops have been going on since the year dot. Nothing new here.

I agree with Roy. There may be minor and subtle ways in which you can split hairs to reveal a difference between 'wild bird photography' and 'captive bird photography'. I imagine it's a lot harder photographing a flying captive raptor coming toward you from 20ft at 10/20mph than it is to photograph a heron at the local pond, Japenese Cranes from behind a fence, Snow Monkeys at Yamanouchi...the list goes on...and yes I agree that there is a certain amount of elitism and this is evident. This permuates through various aspects of bird photograhy. Im not sure how that can be managed.

My only gripe (slightly off topic, forgive me) is that the group in the video is too big for there to be any time spent on giving meaningful advice on camera skills etc. Having said that, I do not know the precise terms and basis of the photographic expereience offered which I imagine was still very enjoyable for all those involved. I would hope that the instructors advise on fieldcraft/ethics/law and the need to study up on individual species before taking their camera skills into the wider environment. I am certainly glad that those in the group are at least prepared to be guided as opposed to thinking they have all the skills (or not caring) and then wandering onto a marsh with a 500 lens over the shoulder or approaching a sensitive nest sites without adopting relevant protocals or best practice. That does not mean that they won't of course but at least there is an opportunity for guidance which in my view should be given.

[adrian dancy]

Jay ...missed your input here.

I could not have put it better myself ....and probably didn't:bg3:

[Ofer Levy]

Jay, I am pleased you like my photography. All my photos were obtained based on my efforts alone. I spend days and weeks of hard work to get one image and I think I can call myself bird photographer and be part of this forum. (Birdphotographers.net)
Paying money to let others to bring the bird to you, put it on a perch for you and show you where to aim your camera - not really my cup of tea. If you enjoy doing that - go for it but I would like to see the letter W next to your images posted in here that were obtained in this way.
Posting them in the Eager to learn forum should be perfectly OK IMHO.
Cheers mate,:w3

[adrian dancy]

Ofer

I repeat, and would urge that you to read the first paragraph of this http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/87343-Please-Read-Before-Posting-The-First-Time-and-Then-From-Time-to-Time
It refers to 'captive' birds and other matters such as the use of lures. If the admin/owners deem such photography appropriate for the 'avian' forum provided disclosure of relevant facts is made then you must accept it or take the matter up directly with admin IMHO. If you take weeks in planning wild bird shots then good credit to you but as I understand it the 'Avian' forum is still a critique and learning forum and you can still learn aspects of bird photography by such methods. Half of photography is no longer about taking pictures but processing them and I see no reason why Jay (who can speak for himself) and others cannot submit images of captive or baited birds for critique if the forum allows it.

Why stop at captive birds ?....we can throw processing into the mix as well. A lot of wild bird images do not reflect what the photographer actually saw...another issue of course but I hope you get my point which is, where do we draw the line?

I personally think that photographing birds in the wild state is more satisfying, on that we may agree, but I think the avian forum is more concerned with the final image. You have obtained, without doubt, some excellent images for your efforts:S3:. If effort is the central criteria here then I deserve a medal, I live in Manchester/Salford (The Rainy City, cloud everywhere nearly all the time!) all my efforts cannot bring sunshine or birds, so relatively speaking I could argue that you and many others have it already made and your skills not fully stretched. I probably have to work 10 times harder for an image but in the end it's the click that counts. Before anyone pipes up saying up 'you can get great images in terrible light etc etc' (which of course is possible) I would rebut by suggesting you lead a group here , I guarantee you will have an empty bus:bg3:. People come from different backgrounds, different walks of life, finances vary as does opportunity, challenges vary from individual to individual and despite that many pro wildlife photographers still photograph captive birds albeit that one hopes disclosure is made. I would urge you not to disenfranchise those that are less fortunate (for various reasons) and who's passion may be equal to yours. With respect, I think that your views ( you are not alone here) which have a validity in their own right may also have a tendancy to make others feel just a little inferior.


Just my very humble opinion.

Kind regards


AD

[Mike Tracy]

I just spent 1/2 hour writing a long reply to this ridiculous question and deleted it. In the end who cares whats it called ? Isnt the purpose of any hobby and this workshop was geared towards hobbyists in the end supposed to be fun and fulfilling ? If your a true pro your work will reflect it and stand on its own. There is no need to be threatened by your own insecurities whether it be fishing, hunting, golf, etc. If one wishes to assemble with others that share a common interest, experience something new and maybe learn in the process more power to them.

[Greg Downing]

I'll comment since I am in the video and conducted the workshops. Alan and I conducted 6 such workshops at last year's birding and photo fest and they were advertised exactly as they were conducted - captive rehab birds in an easy to shoot learning situation. Each workshop was sold out and everyone learned something an got to photograph birds they would likely not find very easily in the wild. Nothing wrong with that as long as they know up front the situation and decide they want to do it. If you don't care for captive rehab birds then by all means don't photograph them, but I suggest also not to hold it against others who wish to do so knowingly. Rehab birds serve well for educational purposes as well as easy photo ops. I agree the images should be properly labeled but that's another issue.

I personally prefer free and wild birds myself but a learning situation is what it is. FWIW I have much less of a problem using rehab birds, which cannot survive in the wild, than captive wildlife that is raised simply for the purpose of being paraded around in front of a camera - completely a different issue if you ask me.

Thanks for the thoughts Ofer - I'm glad to see that your opinions are still passionately expressed. :)

[Rick Poulin]

I agree 100% with Roy. Get over yourselves guys. If you photograph a bird it is bird photography.

Just because you do it the "hard" way according to you does not make you any better than the next guy.

I am fairly new to this site and I admit I am in awe of many here but to me it seems the amount of post processing feels like cheating. Does that make it wrong or immoral - no. Just saying!

[Roger Clark]

“It can be a trap of the photographer to think that his or her best pictures were the ones that were hardest to get.
– Timothy Allen

[Grady Weed]

Man what a question! I can't think of anything much else that might start a firestorm of controversy than the one which was posed. I appreciate your view Ofer, really I do. But...this issue is not one that will deprive you of life or anything else that might hinder your presence here. We all have much more pressing issues to confront. Why must such issues presented cause so much heated debate? Are they really that significant to having a pleasing day out photographing nature around us and appreciating photography as a craft to share with others.

Greg Downing. Thanks for clarifying and sharing with us your point of view, especially if your the leader and seen in the videoed workshop.

Jay Gould! Your still passionate as ever! I agree with you 100%. I hope to meet up with you sometime.

James Shadle. Give me a big high five brother! Just so everyone knows; James and I grew up together. He also photographed my wedding 30 years ago. I trust him implicitly. I know we hold the same values and principles. So when he posts something or comments, I can pretty much trust he is on the level and giving all the benefit of the doubt he can and truly trying to see the other view point. Thats what makes this forum so much fun and educational.

Post that tend to present controversy or divide the audience in a forum like this do not help anyone. I agree Ofer that we should clarify our images as what they truly are, captive, workshop or wild. Then let the audience comment and enjoy them if they so desire. We all learn in different ways. If someone is trying to fool others and mis-represent their work, it will get found out in due time. When it it is they will be shamed, if it is so needed.

I have seen way too many sites, forums and photographers sully themselves and ruin their reputations by arguing over something which goes nowhere. Can we all do better? Lets keep this site where it belongs, on top of the educational heap! Please refrain from degrading ourselves by arguing.

[Jay Gould]

Grady, of course passionate as ever. When I stop being passionate about life I will be dead.

"meeting up sometime" is a promise I make to you (lighthouses) and have made to a few other BPN relatives including the Great Grandfather Artie.

Ofer's works and awards are so over the top that I cannot even understand this thread or how he went from a video about a simple teaching workshop to all of the stuff that he choose to add to "stir the pot" and WE (he and me and others) say Down Under. Yes, Ofer, I am talking about you - sort of in front of you!

Perhaps you wish to add an explanation why you started this in the first place.

[Doug Brown]

While I choose to not post captive bird photos, I don't have a problem with a workshop using them. Likewise I don't have an issue with people posting photos of captive birds as long as there is full disclosure. Not everyone has the time and/or the physical ability to locate and get close to raptors. I lead a workshop to Costa Rica, and we use fruit feeders to attract wild birds. Workshop participants get to spend their time honing their rainforest photography skills instead of devoting an inordinate amount of time to searching high and low for some of these bird species. I provide a target-rich environment for the participants and instruction on how to get the best possible images. They leave the workshop with new knowledge and a nice portfolio of images. The downside of this approach is that people come away with very similar frames, so we encourage workshop participants to explore the rainforest on their own. That way they get shots that no one else on the trip gets. It is those images that are typically the most memorable for workshop participants; they find the bird, determine the proper exposure, and capture the frame with no assistance from me other than the instruction I've given them in a group setting.

[Joel Eade]

Hi all,
................I also feel photos taken this way should be tagged so people like me won't bother to view them and comment.
.................It is sad that people look for the shortcuts instead of going out there, exploring, thinking and creating their own images rather than photocopying the work of others and then signing their name.
I hope that young photographers will not follow this trend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys

Cheers,
Ofer

Ofer,

No doubt you have one of the finest and most admired collection of images on this site and you have won your share of commendations and awards. You also have participated in the comment and critique process extensively. What is really sad is that now you come across so condescending that you don't want to "be bothered" looking at images from a workshop participant. That really is sad. You are very fortunate to have the time, financial resources, environment and skills to produce world class images I would think you would proudly and happily share your knowledge and skill with those who are just trying to learn in the best way available to them. Very few people have the option of obtaining images the same way you do, don't look down on them....help them enjoy and learn....that's what BPN is all about IMHO.

Joel Eade

[Ofer Levy]

Hi all,
First I am sorry if anyone feels offended by my views. I had no intention to hurt anyone. I simply feel that the hobby I love and respect so much turns into something else which I don't like. If anyone wants to do these workshops and take photos of birds when everything was arranged for him - that's his/her business. I don't think this is bird photography and I don't want to see such photos in the AVIAN forum. Period.
It is JUST my opinion, I don't make any decisions and we can all just enjoy whatever we are doing.
Cheers.

[Gary Esman]

My two cents worth on this subject. I started this hobby about 4 years ago. Within the first year I attended a workshop that was similar to the video presented. I must say it got me within 3 feet of a Peregrine Falcon, Great Horned Owl, Golden Eagle, American Kestrel and many others. There is simply no way I was going to experience that without the workshop and I learned a ton. Part of the reason I love this hobby now is from that experience. I have no problem with photographers attending workshops and posting their images here. They simply must follow the posting guidelines that have been clearly outlined. Most of us have full time (40 hours plus) jobs per week, families and other commitments that take time away from being in the field. The reason I joined BPN, besides Randy Stout twisting my arm till it snapped, was to learn. In my opinion that can be done from a shot that is staged or one taken in the field from a blind. In Michigan many species are unapproachable, but in Florida they will land next to you and pose. To me it all is a lot of fun and I enjoy the company I shoot with and other friends I have met though BPN just as much as taking a great shot. If you enjoy what you are doing, do it a little more, you may just smile.

Gary.

[Ofer Levy]

Gary, I had a look at your website and I can see you put a lot of effort into bird photography - some lovely images!!
As to workshops, I have no problem with whatever people want to do as long as it's legal. However, when people with little or no experience in bird photography get similar images to those of some of the best bird photographers in the world and then post them in AVIAN forum to get serious critique - it makes me very sad. There is so much more to bird photography than paying a professional bird photographer a few hundred dollars then just copying his work. Bird photography is not an easy hobby and not everyone can put into it what is needed - hard work, time, skill, creativity and talent. It is true for any other hobby and sport.
I am a memebr in Birdphotographers.net and post my images in the AVIAN forum as I would like to interact with bird photographers not workshop photographers or zoo photographers. Since the policy of this forum is to put a C when posting an image of a captive bird - I have no issue with that as I don't comment and don't waste my time with such photos. In a similar way there should be a W next to an image obtained in a workshop.
I hope people will keep it civil and won't attack me personally as this is totally not personal.
Cheers,
Ofer

[Jay Gould]

Offer, that is a valid explanation and certainly the use of a W just like a C deserves consideration.

If you had simply posted that suggestion either on it's own or linked to the workshop with this explanation, instead of what you did, IMHO a lot of angst would have been avoided. Cheers and keeping posting those wonderful wild bird images.

[Jay Gould]

Believe it or not, I thought about what you wrote as I was calling it a night and it bothered me enough to open my iPad to add this comment:

You said you want to interact with bird photographers and not workshop or zoo photographers ... As you don't "waste your time with such photos".

Mate, this may get me in trouble; I am an American-Australian who says what he believes and believes what he says.

I'll keep it civil; however if you don't have the time to waste with workshop images, like Artie's images during his workshops, and Doug's hummingbird images during his workshops, and all the members who are here to learn and post their workshop images to learn about HA, processing, and composition, just to name a few reasons why I and hundreds of other members are here to learn from the many Master Professional Photographers who consider teaching new photographers to become better photographers, teaching photographers who live in the middle of large cities and do not have the Blue Mountains and other great locations in their back yards, and their only access to wild birds is in a workshop, then IMHO you have become too big for your britches and perhaps you should start a forum limited to REAL BIRD PHOTOGRAPHERS that meet your exacting standards to become a member of your RBP Club.

BPN is a teaching forum; the best photography teaching forum on the Internet. If all of the Professionals had your attitude that helping students with their C and W images was a waste of their time, that would be the end of BPN as we know and love it.

I suggest you think real hard about what you have written, because what you are also saying is that you are not interested in receiving comments from all of the workshop and zoo photographers because let's face it , they - ME AND A LARGE PORTION OF THE MEMBERSHIP - are not REAL photographers By your standards.

Goodnight Ofer, it's almost midnight where I am; you are just finishing dinner. I hope you come to your senses sooner rather than later.

[Ken Watkins]

A very interesting thread for me, as I would never consider taking an image of any animal not situated in the wild.

Whilst captive or baited images maybe good photographs they do not for me fall in to the category of Wildlife photography.

As a mainly animal photographer I choose not to go to places like Sabi Sands as in my experience it is nothing more than a large zoo, I find it far more pleasurable to doing the finding myself or with the assistance of a guide in areas in which acess to the general public is restricted. If I do not get the best or most detailed shot then I really do not mind, as long as I obtained it by myself or with the assistance of my friends.

Just my opinion no offence intended.

[Grady Weed]

The purpose of taking a photograph and then posting it is to display it for critique and or to educate those who will view it. Am I right or what Ofer? If you take a photo and then post it here on BPN, either you want a critique or you are showing it off to those who will view it. Unless...you want to show others you are better than someone else. Which it is it Ofer? Seriously, think about it. You are coming off as a "I'm better than you are" type.

Personally, I've never attended a workshop. I can't afford to. I do have about $20,000 in my equipment, Canon. I take images because it helps me to appreciate my surroundings. I post them so others may critique them, to share and educate some who may never get to go out in the true wilds and find their own wild birds as they may like to.

I never heard those in the You Tube video express their desire to post their images here on BPN as taken in the wild with no help from others or as a professional. All of them looked older, city dwellers and just plain excited to see these birds close up for the first time perhaps. I highly doubt any in the video will be a threat to your livelihood, or mine either. Nor will they challenge you in this forum. So what is the harm? They have to learn somehow. How do you know they took a world class image comparable to yours? They will grow from this and move on to taken in the field images down the line. None of the birds looked stressed. In fact they are unable most likely to return to the wilds. So let these guys be.

I am not aware of a large number of images are being misrepresented in the Avian Forum. Perhaps a few slip by not divulging the true nature of how they obtained them. In time most individuals who take captive images will move on to make images in the wild, if for no other reason than to enjoy the excitement of doing so. How do you expect them to do so if you berate them or treat them with the disdain that is coming through in your post here?

Jay Gould put it squarely in very precise terms. It is something you should think over.

[Jay Gould]

Thanks Grady.

[Linda Dulak]

This reminds me about the initial fights between film and digital photographers. The film photographers looked down their noses at the digital photographers. Well, there aren't many film photographers left and BIF photography has come alive with digital.

Ofer, while you may have the time, money and opportunity to go to places where you can photograph beautiful birds, not everyone can do that. You are also young and I assume, physically fit. Not everyone who enjoys photography fits into that category. For many people, workshops and photography of captive birds may be the only way to get close to those birds to get an image that they can put on the wall and enjoy. In fact, this might just be the inspiration to get someone to pursue photography, practice and get out into the field to match that photograph with a truly wild bird. I can point to several experiences which encouraged me to develop better technique to photograph wild birds, be it BIF or multiflash for hummingbirds. It may not be your thing, but if it gets people interested in photography, I'm all for it. And why not give some encouragement to someone who only wants to improve his/her image? It's not going to threaten you or your profession to give some help to a newcomer, is it? I find it really arrogant that you would not take the time to comment on an image because it was done in a workshop or it was a captive bird.

Linda

[Ofer Levy]

Hi Gardy,
I guess you are not very active on AVIAN forum so you don't know me but people who know me will tell you I am always happy to offer my honet critique including reposting images etc. The reason I do that is my love and respect for this beautiful hobby.
Let me show you one example that demonstrates why these workshops are very bad for bird photography and REAL bird photographers:
Anyone can get a brilliant photo of a perched Peregrine falcon in one of these workshops especially since usually everything is been setup by a top nothch bird photographer.
I will spend the rest of my life trying to get a great image of a perched Peregrine flacon in the wild but will never get even close to what someone with little if any skill and effort can get in a workshop.
It basically has the potential to kill true bird photography and turn all our hard earned photos into nothing as in this world very few people care how an image was taken as long as it looks great....
Having said that, I realise I am just wasting my time in this discussion and make people call me names and abuse me. Money talks, some people will always look for instant results. Bird photography like many other wonderful things in life will turn into something else and that makes me very sad.

[P-A. Fortin]

Let me show you one example that demonstrates why these workshops are very bad for bird photography and REAL bird photographers:
Anyone can get a brilliant photo of a perched Peregrine falcon in one of these workshops especially since usually everything is been setup by a top nothch bird photographer.

Actually I can't. :eek3:

And this is why I'm a member of this forum. Hopefully, if I ever have the chance to attend one of these workshops, I would post my "not-so brilliant" images here, stating the context in which it was taken, and I would get great advice from great photographers (and yes, that's you) on how I could have made it a brilliant photo. Then I would be better prepared for the day, if ever, on which I would manage to get close to one of these bird to take that once-in-a-lifetime photo.

That without being a threat to bird photography and its photographers.

[Grady Weed]

Ofer,

You are a very talented photographer. I do post in the Avian forum, I just do not comment as often as I would like to. As I said before, James Shadle and I grew up together. when he developed this site I was there. We spend time together when I go down to Florida from Maine. I used to live in Florida for 27 years. I love birds and a good photographic day out. I mention this only to let you know who I am and what I do, believe and stand for.

A body builder takes steroids and competes. Lets say he wins and does not tell everyone he takes steroids. A baseball player takes steroids, he wins a coveted award. Both when found out both are shamed and disciplined for it. The same is true in photography. When someone posts an image and does not reveal the true nature behind it, they will be shamed and possibly banned here if their is no "I'm sorry" afterward.

No one here wants to view images by someone who intentionally misleads others into thinking it is natural or wild, or be made a fool of or tricked into believing an untruth. We all agree on that. By the same token, no one on the You Tube video said anything about doing so Ofer. I agree also that "some" will always go the shortcut route and have the money to do so. I do not worry about those people. Neither should you. Why do so?

Give the public some credit. More than a few take notice of the hard won efforts of a pro and will buy the art work of that one. Not all workshops are geared toward putting you direct contact with captive birds. James Shadles workshops take you in close proximity to the Spoonies, with respect to their privacy, for lack of a better description. I cannot remember one person having a complaint on his workshops. He is also educating those who take them as respects to the birds and to take better images. Jim Neiger does the same from what I hear.

For some reason you are displaying a negative attitude on this. No one here thinks you are wasting time and certainly no one has called you names to sully your reputation or abused you. Remember: YOU ASKED THE QUESTION. Then you must be prepared to take the heat or at least be willing to let others have their views. This is not a life altering matter. No one killed the birds afterward or tried to pass off the images taken as something else.

When you broad brush a group or activity and put them in a defensive position, well...be prepared to taken to task over it. This web site is filled with people who take workshops. The owners of the web site give them. What did you expect to hear? No one wants to silence you or your thoughts. Just keep them relevant to the web sites offerings, education, sharing and learning. Bringing up such explosive topics via a link such as You Tube will only go nowhere. Why do it?

I think you have more valuable things to offer than this subject. Would not you agree? Bird photography will stand this test and many others to come, Long after we are all gone or this web site goes away. Enjoy your craft Ofer, let others do the same.

[Matt Fragale]

I've seen some fantastic photos of mountains by people like Ansel Adams who is a fairly well regarded fellow and I don't remember anyone chiding him for going where everyone knew the mountains would be. Beautiful photos can be taken at an event like the one in the video in the original post and I don't think that the situation diminishes the beauty of the photograph.

It's really a difference of perspective between people who are naturalists/birders who come to photography from there and others who were photographers first and came to nature photography because nature is pretty awesome to photograph. It's a subtle difference and I suspect that there is a range in between the extremes of what is important to each person; the natural experience / field craft or the final image or somewhere in between. For myself, I fall into the latter category. I love photography and the natural world is beautiful and I enjoy taking photos of beautiful things. For me, the final image is more important than how I got it, however I also believe in a situation like this forum where there is a group that recognizes the different level of skill required to get a good photo of a bird in the wild vs. a bird in captivity it's important to respect that and represent my photography for what it is. In the end, we are all photographers and to some extent, birders. We can help each other improve in both areas without being terribly judgemental about either, I think.

Ofer, I respect that you work hard to get your photos and many are truly awesome. If it is important to you to get people out into the wild, commenting on those captive bird shots could be your opportunity to suggest places where that bird might be seen in the wild and how you would go about finding and photographing them effectively in the context of offering your critique of the actual photo. How cool would it be if you inspired someone to get out there and they came back with a fantastic photo?

[Roger Clark]

Hi Gardy,
I guess you are not very active on AVIAN forum so you don't know me but people who know me will tell you I am always happy to offer my honet critique including reposting images etc. The reason I do that is my love and respect for this beautiful hobby.
Let me show you one example that demonstrates why these workshops are very bad for bird photography and REAL bird photographers:
Anyone can get a brilliant photo of a perched Peregrine falcon in one of these workshops especially since usually everything is been setup by a top nothch bird photographer.
I will spend the rest of my life trying to get a great image of a perched Peregrine flacon in the wild but will never get even close to what someone with little if any skill and effort can get in a workshop.
It basically has the potential to kill true bird photography and turn all our hard earned photos into nothing as in this world very few people care how an image was taken as long as it looks great....
Having said that, I realise I am just wasting my time in this discussion and make people call me names and abuse me. Money talks, some people will always look for instant results. Bird photography like many other wonderful things in life will turn into something else and that makes me very sad.

Ofer,
You said "It basically has the potential to kill true bird photography and turn all our hard earned photos into nothing as in this world very few people care how an image was taken as long as it looks great...."
That is a key to your argument. You have yet to define what is "true" bird photography, but it appears it is only completely wild images. How wild is wild? Is baiting and calling allowed in your definition? If so, why? Are "wild" birds in a city allowed, or only remote locations? Should all images be graded on a scale of difficulty to get? You seem to be saying difficulty is a key metric.

I will repeat the quote:
“It can be a trap of the photographer to think that his or her best pictures were the ones that were hardest to get.
– Timothy Allen

The counter to your argument, bird photography is rapidly growing, and probably in significant part due to workshops. I see workshops really helping people learn faster. That along with the internet and sites like BPN, people learn faster than ever before.

Workshops will not kill bird photography, nor any other photography. They help people learn to make better images and grow the field.

Are you afraid of the new competition all these up and coming photographers will bring?

Roger

[Gary Esman]

Gary, I had a look at your website and I can see you put a lot of effort into bird photography - some lovely images!!
As to workshops, I have no problem with whatever people want to do as long as it's legal. However, when people with little or no experience in bird photography get similar images to those of some of the best bird photographers in the world and then post them in AVIAN forum to get serious critique - it makes me very sad. There is so much more to bird photography than paying a professional bird photographer a few hundred dollars then just copying his work. Bird photography is not an easy hobby and not everyone can put into it what is needed - hard work, time, skill, creativity and talent. It is true for any other hobby and sport.
I am a memebr in Birdphotographers.net and post my images in the AVIAN forum as I would like to interact with bird photographers not workshop photographers or zoo photographers. Since the policy of this forum is to put a C when posting an image of a captive bird - I have no issue with that as I don't comment and don't waste my time with such photos. In a similar way there should be a W next to an image obtained in a workshop.
I hope people will keep it civil and won't attack me personally as this is totally not personal.
Cheers,
Ofer


Hey Ofer, trust me, no personal attack at all from me. Thanks for looking at the website, kind of under construction right now. I think that threads like this one open up great dialogue and we all know that communication is the key. I have admired your work for some time. The effort you put forth to obtain the images is commendable. That being said, not all of us have the time to devote to this hobby as we would like. Keep the great images coming.

Gary.

[Steve Canuel]

W & F will now be attached to all posted photos of birds who are "Wild & Free". Make sure you do not inadvertently use WTF as this has a completely different meaning and may cause some confusion.

[John Ippolito]

Workshops have indeed changed the access to many wild creatures. There was a time, not all that long ago when only serious students of bear behavior would venture out to capture relatively close images of brown bears and especially their more tenacious interior cousin grizzlies. Today, it is common for a participant with absolutely no outdoor experience( let alone bear smarts in the bush), to show up at a comfortable lodge with 3 very healthy squares, a comfy dry bed in a cabin, drinks , lattes, uploading images to friends back home in the evening, and a guide that will take the group to see bears at a range they would never dream of on their own.

My personal preference is to charter a floatplane with afriend, and spend a week or two out there by ourselves, camped with the bears, sometimes ferocious weather, and insects. For me, the images are richer because of the true wilderness experience, and self relianceneeded to survive in such situations. But here is where the quote, Roger references is so important.

“It can be a trap of the photographer to think that his orher best pictures were the ones that were hardest to get. <o:p></o:p>
– Timothy Allen

My images may be harder won, and for me, personally rewarding, but are they somehow the real deal, and superior to a workshop participant who had the bears dished by a guide who was watching their backswhile they were lost in their viewfinders? I don't think so.
Workshops and tours have given many thousands of photographers/viewers a new, respectful appreciation for the big bears, which I believe makes them want to go back home, and spread the word, ultimately making thes visitors ambassadors that will help save the bears habitat., and in the process they often end up with spectacular images. My personal style of enjoying the outdoors is important to me only.

[Nicki Gwynn Jones]

Ofer, how fortunate you are that you have the talent and expertise to do what you do with no help - most of us need a little education and encouragement. I for one would never have got started without a couple of 'Captive Bird Workshops'. They are affordable and you can learn much about composition and flight photography to name but a couple reasons for attending one of these and for some folks this is all that they want as their experience of bird photography. I was lucky enough to attend Artie's Bosque workshop in 2008. What an eye-opener that was. I would never have understood what it takes to succeed in the field without that experience, and when I went to Costa Rica with Doug you bet I wanted to be taken to where the birds were, having flown halfway round the world and spent my hard-earned wages on the tip of a lifetime...
We all take something different from photography and this is as it should be. If you are taking images as a form of self-expression and to show the beauty and grace of your subject matter then what does it matter whether you have trekked for hours in the rain forest, attended a workshop or are standing in front of a setup.

[Ofer Levy]

Just to clarify - I have absolutely no issue with workshops/tours in which the participants are being taken to places where birds can be found - I think this is a great way of learning about bird photography and I think most of the people on this site who conduct workshops belong to this group. My issue is with those workshops in which everything is done for the participants - like the one featured in the video. Placing the poor owl in the fake nest so everyone can get an image of an owl in the nest - I find this to be wrong and undermining the whole essence of bird photography.

[Grady Weed]

Point well taken Ofer. And thanks for the clarification. I certainly hope this discussion had educated us all to respect the other guy's thoughts and point of view. I hope to see all of us posting great images for all to enjoy. Thanks again for the spirited comments. See you!

[Roger Clark]

Just to clarify - I have absolutely no issue with workshops/tours in which the participants are being taken to places where birds can be found - I think this is a great way of learning about bird photography and I think most of the people on this site who conduct workshops belong to this group. My issue is with those workshops in which everything is done for the participants - like the one featured in the video. Placing the poor owl in the fake nest so everyone can get an image of an owl in the nest - I find this to be wrong and undermining the whole essence of bird photography.

Ofer,
The workshop is about learning. There is more to bird photography than simple finding a bird in the wild. One must know and practice with your tools (e.g. getting to know your camera and lens) and what settings work best in certain conditions. A controlled workshop like that shown is a great way to learn your equipment. Then there is the whole issue of light. (Time for my soap box.) It seems that few photographers really understand light, especially novice/beginning photographers, and, I'm finding many pros. I find most photography books really teach little about light. Again, controlling conditions so students learn and understand the concepts is what it is all about, whether light, camera operation, head angle, body angle, wing angle, etc. All this becomes important in bird photography, and especially so in action bird photography. Controlling conditions enables the teacher to teach about specific conditions rather than hoping to find something in the wild. Sure the next logical step after those controlled basics would be real field experience with real wild subjects, but that is at a higher level. Have you forgotten that you too (and that goes for all of us) were once clueless about a camera and anything to do with operating one? After all, we were not born with genetic codes that told us how to operate a camera, let alone in an action scenario. One has to learn to crawl before learning to walk and before a jog and before a full sprint. Same with learning many other crafts.

Roger

[Jay Gould]

Just to clarify - I have absolutely no issue with workshops/tours in which the participants are being taken to places where birds can be found - I think this is a great way of learning about bird photography and I think most of the people on this site who conduct workshops belong to this group. My issue is with those workshops in which everything is done for the participants - like the one featured in the video. Placing the poor owl in the fake nest so everyone can get an image of an owl in the nest - I find this to be wrong and undermining the whole essence of bird photography.

And Mate, I have no problem with that limited comment. What I am still waiting for you to address is your apparent refusal to participate in the foundation of BPN; critiquing EVERYONE especially those that are newbies posting there - perhaps first - bird image even if was a "C" or a "W".

Suggestion to Management: Perhaps Avian should be limited to wild captures, and all "C" and "W" birds should be posted in the ETL forum! Just a thought for further discussion.

[Ofer Levy]

And Mate, I have no problem with that limited comment. What I am still waiting for you to address is your apparent refusal to participate in the foundation of BPN; critiquing EVERYONE especially those that are newbies posting there - perhaps first - bird image even if was a "C" or a "W".

Suggestion to Management: Perhaps Avian should be limited to wild captures, and all "C" and "W" birds should be posted in the ETL forum! Just a thought for further discussion.

Hi Jay, here is my standard comment on every image of captive bird or one that was captured in a workshop where everything was setup and you just have to click:
I allow you to copy and paste it on every such photo and sign my name.

"This is a bird photography forum. This image is not considered to be bird photography IMHO. Once you get a photo of a bird in the wild without paying someone to do all the work for you - please let me know and I will give you my honest critique on your work."

Cheers mate,
Ofer

[Jay Gould]

Hi Jay, here is my standard comment on every image of captive bird or one that was captured in a workshop where everything was setup and you just have to click:
I allow you to copy and paste it on every such photo and sign my name.

"This is a bird photography forum. This image is not considered to be bird photography IMHO. Once you get a photo of a bird in the wild without paying someone to do all the work for you - please let me know and I will give you my honest critique on your work."

Cheers mate,
Ofer

Mate, I hope management steps in at some point and educates either you or me. Frankly, our disagreement on what BPN is all about is about as wide as the Grand Canyon. Your exceedingly limited definition of BPN would destroy BPN.

Have you bother or do you even care to ask Artie, or James, or Robert A what there definition of bird photography consists of and whether they agree with you position that persons that post C and W images do not deserve a critique?

I doubt it!

[Ofer Levy]

Mate, I hope management steps in at some point and educates either you or me. Frankly, our disagreement on what BPN is all about is about as wide as the Grand Canyon. Your exceedingly limited definition of BPN would destroy BPN.

Have you bother or do you even care to ask Artie, or James, or Robert A what there definition of bird photography consists of and whether they agree with you position that persons that post C and W images do not deserve a critique?

I doubt it!

Jay, I am expressing my private views, I don't work for you and I can do whatever I want - comment or not comment without getting a permission from you or anyone else.
Looks like time is not a very rare resource for you - why won't you go out and do some bird photography...?
:w3

[Jay Gould]

:eek3: Of course you don't work for me; you work for you and we are both members of the same organization.

Apparently your understanding of the purpose for BPN and mine, perhaps others too, differ.

This is NOT a bird photography forum; this is an educational photography forum with an emphasis on birds. There are many other forum including Landscape.

I do not do your kind of photography because medically I am unable to do so. My shoulder limitation is such, and other limitations are such, that I even sold my 300 f/2.8.

And, your are right, time for me at 69 (14 Feb) is not a rare commodity as you define it; however, I define it at 69 as a very rare commodity.

Your private views about how BPN should be viewed and what should and should not be critiqued are no longer private once expressed. Once expressed you have to take the heat if there is is heat to be applied.

[Dan Brown]

How can anyone really know if the circumstances surrounding a particular capture are not baited, staged, setup or anything else, unless someone video'ed the situation? I guess to satisfy the OP, we have to have a video of our capture moment to prove that it was "WILD AND REALLY HARD TO GET" to qualify for posting in AVIAN? I agree with Jay, all of these forums are for education, not a photo contest!!!

P.S. I am kinda sad to see this thread, as it seems to be a simple attempt to get under folks skin or get someone's goat. Just my 2 cents.

[Ofer Levy]

How can anyone really know if the circumstances surrounding a particular capture are not baited, staged, setup or anything else, unless someone video'ed the situation? I guess to satisfy the OP, we have to have a video of our capture moment to prove that it was "WILD AND REALLY HARD TO GET" to qualify for posting in AVIAN? I agree with Jay, all of these forums are for education, not a photo contest!!!

P.S. I am kinda sad to see this thread, as it seems to be a simple attempt to get under folks skin or get someone's goat. Just my 2 cents.
Hi Dan, not sure if you read the OP - doesn't look like it from your comment.
This discussion is about those workshops where everyone how just bought a nice camera can get a world class bird image as it was staged for him by a world class photographer. Nothing more and nothing less. I haven't mentioned, baiting, using of calls, setups etc which for me are all part of my work as a bird photographer.
Please read the original post again.
Thanks. :w3

[adrian dancy]

Ofer

The title of this thread which you named and started is 'True Bird Photography vs Workshop Photography'

Some folk do not believe in baiting or the use of calls in bird photography. It may be their view that such photography is not 'True Bird Photography". So if you do bait, use calls or create set-ups then perhaps you should endorse your images to reflect that fact and so that they can ignore your images and move on. You should be aware that many camera clubs run competitions excluding 'The Hand of Man' in any image. You cannot remove the goal posts just to suit your argument. You planted the goal posts in the title of your thread so I'm afraid you are stuck with it!

Please define the meaning of 'True Bird Photography' (with full particulars) by stating what it is, as opposed to what it is not.

What ever your definition is of 'True Bird Photography' it does not change the fact that folk are allowed to post images of captive birds and other relevant facts indicating how an image was made and since you have agreed to abide by the terms and conditions of BPN I think that it is just a little rude for you adopt a standard reply which is condescending when those who have posted have complied and made disclosure.



AD

[Ofer Levy]

Adrian, I am not sure I understand why you seem to miss the point. I have posted a link to a video clip which clearly shows what for me is not bird photography.
Here it is again in case you can't find it in the OP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys
I think I have said enough on this thread.
Cheers!

[Cathy McEntee]

Ofer - I'd like to take issue with the comment "Posting them in the Eager to learn forum should be perfectly OK IMHO". I'm fairly new to bird photography, but the people that post in ETL truly want to learn to improve their skills. I have beautiful shots of waterfowl taken at a waterfowl sancturary, but I choose not to post them as I know they are fine, but it was not a challenge as I didn't have to find the birds or anticipate their behavior--they were sitting ducks. You may think ETL is not serious, but the images that are posted there were a challenge for most of us in some way and are usually not perfect, but they are images we are learning from (IMHO).

[Ofer Levy]

Ofer - I'd like to take issue with the comment "Posting them in the Eager to learn forum should be perfectly OK IMHO". I'm fairly new to bird photography, but the people that post in ETL truly want to learn to improve their skills. I have beautiful shots of waterfowl taken at a waterfowl sancturary, but I choose not to post them as I know they are fine, but it was not a challenge as I didn't have to find the birds or anticipate their behavior--they were sitting ducks. You may think ETL is not serious, but the images that are posted there were a challenge for most of us in some way and are usually not perfect, but they are images we are learning from (IMHO).

Cathy, first I would like to say there is not such thing as a perfect bird image. Even the best bird photos that I have seen are not perfect and obviously none of my photos is perfect. For me this is what makes bird photography so exciting, challenging and rewarding - you can always learn and improve. Posting images taken in such workshops like the one in the video on ETL looks fine to me not because ETL is an inferiour forum but because it is a forum for those who are starting out and might attend those workshops.
Hope this explains my attitude,
Cheers,
Ofer :w3

[Mike Tracy]

Ofer, I regularly take photographers out on my boat, usually in search of Snail Kites which are only found within small areas in Fl. and usually only from a boat . Does my knowledge of where they are located, positioning my boat based on the prevailing winds and sun detract from my clients images authenticity according to your stance ?

[Roger Clark]

Please define the meaning of 'True Bird Photography' (with full particulars) by stating what it is, as opposed to what it is not.


Ofer,
Here is a stab at some categories. What is "True Bird Photography" in your opinion?

1) Wild and Free (no calls, no bait)
2) Wild, called
3) Wild, baited
4) Wild. called and baited
5) Sanctuary subject
6) Captive subject (e.g. zoo)
6a) Pets
7) Captive and controlled (e.g. tethered, or made to fly a route)

Where is the line for True Bird Photography? (Maybe we should do a poll.)
And perhaps ALL of the above should be disclosed when an image is posted.

Roger

[Jay Gould]

...
Hope this explains my attitude,
Cheers,
Ofer :w3

Mate,

Are you kinda getting the message that you are A Man Without A Supporter?

Are you kinda getting the message that no one wants the Avian Forum or any Forum limited the way you suggest it should be?

Are you kinda getting the message that the mere suggestion by you that your time is so valuable compared to everyone else that you will not waste your time to even look at a C or a W image means that you have created a new membership category with one member? Category: Real Bird Photographers Who Do Not Waste Their Time Teaching Others Who Post Captured and Workshop Images In The Sacrosanct Avian Forum

Are you kinda getting the message that perhaps you blew it big time starting this thread in the contentious manner in which you did?

:wave: Hello!!

I think on this issue I can speak on behalf of the vast majority of the membership (perhaps the entire membership other than you):

WE are here to learn from everyone and, to the extent that we are able to assist and share our knowledge, we will do so with everyone regardless of the type or category of image posted.

This is on the bottom of EVERY page:


BirdPhotographers.net - It Ain't Just Birds (http://www.birdphotographers.net/)



BPN is about all areas of photography and pushing the envelope in all areas of photography.

And, you know what, it is going to stay that way and grow!

:cheers: :5

[Matt Fragale]

Hi Jay, here is my standard comment on every image of captive bird or one that was captured in a workshop where everything was setup and you just have to click:
I allow you to copy and paste it on every such photo and sign my name.

"This is a bird photography forum. This image is not considered to be bird photography IMHO. Once you get a photo of a bird in the wild without paying someone to do all the work for you - please let me know and I will give you my honest critique on your work."

Cheers mate,
Ofer

FYI, I'm still new here and still learning, but if you were to post this condescending comment on any of my photos, I would be sure to reply exactly in kind and let you know very precisely what I think of your attitude and I can tell you that it would not indicate a respect for your greater motivation.

Based on your attitude and comments in this thread, I think you've lost touch with reality. Not all people are as advanced in the craft of photography or naturalism as you are, Ofer. They have to learn somehow. So your attitude would be that they should just stomp around in the woods by themselves until they figure it out or pay for a guide to lead them before they even have the slightest clue about what makes a good bird photograph or how to track a bird in flight? That's patently ridiculous, and your comments so far are offensive to me as someone who is in the process of learning. You are a terrible ambassador for the bird photography community. Can you imagine how someone would feel if they came here for the first time and posted something they were proud of because they caught a bird in flight at one of those events that you consider so offensive and you posted that steaming pile in response? They would think everyone here was a complete [edited for politeness sake] and probably never return. Is this your goal? To be part of a group of elitist jerks that are unwilling to help those who are learning or do not or can not have the same level of commitment as you do? This is what I read when I signed up for membership here: "Birdphotographers.net (BPN) is an international nature photography discussion forum and e-zine focused on providing a fun learning experience through honest but gentle image critiques." Do you think your comment fits those criteria at all, Ofer?

Grr. Sorry for ranting. I was fine with leaving my contribution to this thread with my earlier more polite post until I saw this and I'm sorry if as a new person I have crossed the line. However I am not sorry for saying what I think needs to be said. I've enjoyed reading the critiques here and gained so much information and knowledge already. I hate to think what a terrible place this would become if there were more people with Ofer's attitude and less with Roger and Jay and Gail and James and others whose names I can't think of right now.

[Jay Gould]

Matt, I truly understand your emotions in reading this thread; I would have reacted the same in 2009 when I joined.

However, I think everyones' comments in this and all threads, not just critique threads, need to be "honest but gentle".

[Jay Gould]

Ofer, frankly, I think you owe the Membership an apology!

[Matt Fragale]

I agree, Jay, except when someone crosses that line on their own and chooses to be offensive as Ofer has. If he actually has posted that to anyone's photos for critique, he owes them an immediate apology and should be ashamed of himself. If he has not and only said it here to fan the flames, then I am sorry he deserves to be called out for that, as well. If that is the case and he is truly just a troll who happens to also shoot bird photos, then he is not the sort of person that I would choose to associate with at any level. Is there an ignore button on here somewhere?

[Dan Brown]

Hi Dan, not sure if you read the OP - doesn't look like it from your comment.
This discussion is about those workshops where everyone how just bought a nice camera can get a world class bird image as it was staged for him by a world class photographer. Nothing more and nothing less. I haven't mentioned, baiting, using of calls, setups etc which for me are all part of my work as a bird photographer.
Please read the original post again.
Thanks. :w3I guess you missed my point, Ofer. How do we know that our (your) images aren't on the up and up without a video? winkie,winkie! Maybe you had some workshoppie help? Sorry you don't approve of things.

[adrian dancy]

Ofer,
Here is a stab at some categories. What is "True Bird Photography" in your opinion?

1) Wild and Free (no calls, no bait)
2) Wild, called
3) Wild, baited
4) Wild. called and baited
5) Sanctuary subject
6) Captive subject (e.g. zoo)
6a) Pets
7) Captive and controlled (e.g. tethered, or made to fly a route)

Where is the line for True Bird Photography? (Maybe we should do a poll.)
And perhaps ALL of the above should be disclosed when an image is posted.



Roger

Roger

Sorry if it may seem silly but are you asking me or Ofer?

[adrian dancy]

Offer

You have thrown a lighted squib into the room and are jumping out because you don't like the bang and smoke.

You are failing to acknowledge that you have asked us to discuss 'True Bird Photography vs Workshop Photography'. It seems to me that there are two elements to discuss but you only wish express your views on one and at the risk of being exposed you have tried to limit your original intentions.

You have been asked at least twice to define what you mean by 'True Bird Photography' and failed. Roger has kindly put forward some suggestions but rest assured the list can be added to.

I think that you are at risk of alienting yourself. I do not wish to offend you but your attitude is most revealing. When you reach achievement then I suggest you spread a vail of humility over it and if you genuinely wish to serve others with good honest opnions (there is nothing more noble) then do so with grace and help others who may be less fortunate. I think that by adopting that position you will go further and your own work held in higher esteem. Just because folk have the money to attend a workshop does not mean they have other resourses such as health or whatever to do what you do. One day you will discover that you may have limitations. But for now let your own achievements be your own reward.

I live in an area where there is a lot of crime, I have retired early and money short, I have no garden or land to attract birds or car to take me to bird rich locations. I personally do not think there is great skill in sticking up a perch and filling a feeder to attract birds. I just don't see it as a major factor. If I erected a feeding station in my local woods the feeders would be stolen or trashed within hours and I would probably be mugged (two attempts made already!) I have tried to photograph dippers and have been shot at with air rifles and had large rocks thrown at me from a bridge. At times I have gone to exraordinary lengths to create images but isn't that just part of the fun? As I stated above, in my view, it's the click that counts. Taking account of light and subject behaviour is equally important for that single critical moment to be imaged, but even then it is not essential. Is it not the case also that at a lot of feeding stations and set ups participants are allowed to arrange the set ups, in other words artistic direction is in the hands of the photographer and what if you decided to bring your own perch? Within 20 yards of my flat there are some fantastic mossy knarled perches. Would you suppose I travel 50 miles on a bus with them and the rest of my gear just make my pics more legitimate so that you can comment?


I think it is time to eat humble pie and you will be deemed brave and respected for it. If you don't you will have left a very sad legacy.

Anyway Ofer...good wishes.

AD

[Sid Garige]

Ofer,

I have known your for a long time and IMO you are a great photographer and inspired me with many images. Even though I don't agree with some of your views, I respect you and your work and I would be honored to shake your hand and share a subject with you in the field. Hope this will be passing cloud and good luck.

-Sid

[dankearl]

I think sometimes on internet forums, the nuance of what someone is trying to say, gets lost in just reading typed words.
I also would like to say that Ofer has been more than helpful to me with his critiques and repost suggestions.
I look forward to more of his insight.

[Norm Dulak]

Although I understand that Ofer was referring to a specific kind of situation in his OP, I don't understand why he raised this issue and provoked what were inevitable comments.

I can envision situations where such workshops may be the only realistic opportunity for some who enjoy birds and photography but have limited access. If someone photographing a beautiful bird in a posed situation receives enjoyment he or she would not otherwise have, that is a good thing.

[Ofer Levy]

Sid and Dan, thank you for your kind words and support. You are both TRUE bird photographers. You've earned this title as you put into this great hobby all the hard work, time and effort needed. Your beautiful photos are your creation - nobody staged them for you and they speak for themselves. I have learned from both of you at least as much as you've learned from me - this is how it works between REAL bird photographers. This thread is mainly aimed for young people who are starting out now and my message to them is - don't follow the easy way. If you want to be real bird photographers have respect for this amazing hobby and put into it the work and dedication needed. Yes, you can get great shots if you pay a top notch bird photographer to do the work for you but then you will never be a true bird photographer but a bird photocopier.
Here is what I hope no young photographer who wants to become a real bird photographer should join as this is not the way to go. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbf7AaNzSys
Happy shooting to all,
Cheers,
Ofer

[Roger Clark]

Roger

Sorry if it may seem silly but are you asking me or Ofer?

Adrian,
I'm asking Ofer. You asked him to define true bird photography, and my intent posting under your was to ask the same question and to asl that he put the answer in context of some possibilities. Sorry for any confusion.

Roger

[Sid Garige]

Ofer,

To state my opinion, I personally dont see any thing wrong with workshops or photographing captive birds. I started with photographing birds in local zoo and rehab centers later on moved to wild birds. I guess that worked as a stepping stone in the process.

We all stated our opinion and based on our personal resources and objectives we all decide which path we are going to take. I think before it turns into something unpleasant I suggest we all take a chill pill and relax. :)

-Sid

[Jay Gould]

Ofer,

To state my opinion, I personally dont see any thing wrong with workshops or photographing captive birds. I started with photographing birds in local zoo and rehab centers later on moved to wild birds. I guess that worked as a stepping stone in the process.

We all stated our opinion and based on our personal resources and objectives we all decide which path we are going to take. I think before it turns into something unpleasant I suggest we all take a chill pill and relax. :)

-Sid

Sid, this goes beyond simply stating your own opinion and the path you are going to take. Ofer, has not only given his opinion about the workshop, he has actively said that beginners should not join a workshop that is provided by known excellent photographers, he has also said that looking at members images from those workshops are a waste of his time.

That is fine for Ofer; IM not so humble O, that is totally contradictory to the philosophy of BPN.

A REAL :e3 BIRD PHOTOGRAPHER with Ofer's well know credentials should start a forum with membership limited to persons that meet that his exceeding limited point of view.

[Sid Garige]

Jay,
We all are reasonable men with different opinions. I am half of your age and I am not going to tell you what you should do. If you say its beyond that then I respect that too.
I may be completely wrong but I feel like emotions are in driving seat and logic in passenger seat.

-Sid

[Matt Fragale]

Sid and Dan, thank you for your kind words and support. You are both TRUE bird photographers. You've earned this title as you put into this great hobby all the hard work, time and effort needed. Your beautiful photos are your creation - nobody staged them for you and they speak for themselves...

Interesting that you left out everyone who did not support you and also that you believe you are the arbiter of "true bird photography". I've thought quite a bit about this since earlier today when I was most offended and I have come to a conclusion. A picture of a bird is a picture of a bird. It is good or bad on its own merits regardless of who made it or how much mud they crawled in or didn't crawl in to get it. I think you're a very small-minded, insecure man who feels the need to exclude others from the very prestigious pedestal he has placed himself upon. Happily, I am not a "TRUE bird photographer".

[Don Lacy]

Sid, this goes beyond simply stating your own opinion and the path you are going to take. Ofer, has not only given his opinion about the workshop, he has actively said that beginners should not join a workshop that is provided by known excellent photographers, he has also said that looking at members images from those workshops are a waste of his time.

That is fine for Ofer; IM not so humble O, that is totally contradictory to the philosophy of BPN.

A REAL :e3 BIRD PHOTOGRAPHER with Ofer's well know credentials should start a forum with membership limited to persons that meet that his exceeding limited point of view.
I swore when Ofer posted this thread I would not comment on it (I was worn out form the Boundary Owl thread:S3:) but I think Ofer is well within his rights to state that he will not comment on staged images there are plenty of members here who will not comment on images they believe were obtained from baiting which is also well within their rights as far as I am concern. One more thing there is a huge differance between setups and staged images if setups were easy we would all have Alan Murphys and Ofers portfolios.

[dankearl]

Matt, as Sid said, it is time to take a chill on this.
I did not "support" Ofer, in fact, if you read my first response, I feel that the workshops are fine, if people enjoy them, that is fine with me.
I simply feel that Ofer is passionate about this, and that is his opinion.
i appreciate his photo advice, critiques and his expertise and that is my opinion.
If I was a Moderator, I would probably close this, not much more to be gained from the discussion, IMO.

[Sid Garige]

Dan,
Very well said.
We're Better Than This. I hope this is just a small set back in a long sail.
Lets not forget Captain's rule 25 - HAVE FUN! :wave:

[adrian dancy]

Dan

I don't think anything has been lost in typed words. I think Ofer's position is unambiguous. I don't think anyone denies Ofer's ability (technichally). What Ofer has done is start something off that he cannot handle because he is failing to recognise that others may place an even higher standard on their bird photography than he does. He has avoided defining what 'Real Bird Photography' is. He also fails to recognise that attending a workshop may be a good way of leading into what may be a very enjoyable hobby for those who wish to pursue it further and responsibly. I do not see an abundance of evidence that folk are passing off images from raptor workshops as wild images and it seems that Ofer has some insecurity here. I started off (in the film days, film being expensive) taking a furry toy and placing placing it in different positions in different lighting situations and learning the basics of aperture and exposure etc. If I could have attended a workshop or afforded one I would have entertained it as a possible legitimate way of developing camera skills. I developed field skills as a kid because I could not afford binoculars or a telescope.


I wholeheartedly disagree with Ofer that one should just go straight out into the field and start photographing wild birds without acquiring knowledge and camera skills and more importantly field skills, respect for the subject, ethics and the knowing the law as it might apply. One of the problems with forums is that there is so much emphasis on cameras, lenses and all the geeky stuff but little emphasis on general conduct in the field especially around nesting season. Many photographers new to bird photography simply do not know their subjects and their subject's sensitivities and I have seen some questionable behaviour born out of ignorance with my own eyes. I have seen images including some on BFN that have caused me to raise an eyebrow and at the risk of starting something off I have chosen not to comment, perhaps I should have.


Unless Ofer defines the meaning of 'True Bird Photography' then this discussion is meaningless IMHO.

[Roy Priest]

I think some should remember Wheaton's Law.

[adrian dancy]

Don, I don't think 'set ups' are in any way difficult to make, the skill level is achievable by a very young child...for many it is simply a question of resource. I can create a set up tonight but I can assure you it will be trashed by the following night.

[Ofer Levy]

Another thing to consider is that when anyone from the general public sees this video - he/she will think that this is how excellent shots are being made and obviously lose any respect to this wonderful hobby. This is very bad and unfair to all those true bird photographers who work so hard to do proper bird photography.

[Grady Weed]

I think it's time we all closed this thread and reflect on why we take images, why we post them, what we expect to gain from "debating" a thread such as this. What say we not post threads such as those that might lead to controversy, hurt feelings or discourage others. BPN is so much more than that. Most here are willing to learn, willing to share our skills with others and can do so without demeaning those whom we are trying to address as an audience.

I am sure we all have better things to do than debate this issue any further. Ofer has made his point and we have made our thoughts known. Time to let move on to the things we all enjoy!

[Matt Fragale]

I think some should remember Wheaton's Law.

YES! I'm fine with Ofer not commenting on anything he chooses not to. His reasons are his own and he is entitled. But when he said he was going to add his snarky comment about how the picture was not true bird photography whenever he saw a photo posted from a workshop type situation, that was what offended me. Everyone is definitely free to act with their own beliefs in mind as long as that doesn't include being outright rude to others as Ofer has suggested he will do or perhaps has done.

As suggested by others now, this debate is fairly pointless to continue.

[Roy Priest]

Matt, this wasn't directed at you. I'm on your side of the debate.

[Daniel Cadieux]

One of the great things about BPN is the passion that comes through about our shared hobby, and it shows very much in this thread. Thank you all for that. Having said this I believe it is time to move on as everything that needs to be said has been said...thread closed.

Now lets just go out and create great new bird images, whichever way that may be!