Tour Company/Workshop Insurance

[Roman Kurywczak]

I've often wondered if people cared or worried that the workshop or tour they were on carried liability insurance. Does it really matter to you as you go on these type of trips and assume all the responsibility for yourself? Do you ask? Just wondering....because as a tour operator myself ..... no one ever asked me if I carried it! (which I do)

[Marina Scarr]

Hi Roman: I would care for an expensive trip only. If I were going to Africa, for instance, I would buy insurance probably through NANPA. For national trips, unless the workshop is extremely expensive, I don't think I would buy it. Well maybe for an Alaska trip that were more expensive. I have purchased insurance for several trips to Europe and did in fact have to cancel one trip and did collect on the insurance. I personally think it pays to have it for expensive trips.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hey Marina,
I guess I didn't clarify......I wasn't talking about trip insurance. I was asking if you ask if your tour company/operator carried insurance. Make sense?

[Marina Scarr]

I know a couple of people who run tours on their boat, and they do carry it. Not sure otherwise.

[Dave Leroy]

Roman, I have only been on one workshop and it was with Glenn Bartley.
Glenn was very up front in letting his customers/clients know that he did not carry liability/travel/health insurance for them. I signed a Liability Release Form. It wasn't a really big deal for me as Workshop was in Victoria and I live near Vancouver. I also have extended and foreign travel medical insurance coverage.

If trip was overseas I would probably look at little harder at travel insurance.

I hope this helps.

Dave

[Mike Tracy]

I wouldn't consider taking folks out for hire on my boat unless covered by charter boat insurance and likewise wouldn't trust a captain who doesn't have it. As far as land based workshops I do not think it would be a concern except if the company shuttled me to the respective site(s).

[Roger Clark]

I would think anyone running a business would need insurance.

Roger

[Hilary Hann]

Roman, you mean third party liability not travel insurance? So if I go on your tour and you take us out on a cliff to photograph mountain goats, someone slips and breaks a leg, they can sue you for $5million because you didn't provide a safe environment? All tour leaders should have this kind of cover, it's a litigious world but I would forget to ask.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Thanks All! I'm with you Mike.....as Hilary points out and given our society......that is why I carry it also.....but no one has ever asked me about it!

Dave, I'm not sure about the laws in Canada.....but even with the waiver (which I also have) Glenn should carry it....very dangerous for him.

The reason I asked Roger is that no one has ever asked me about it! I see many smaller tour operators and wonder....given the expense.... if they carry it. Given the fact that no one has ever asked me.....nor have I aksjed anyone else for that matter!!!.....do people just assume that the tour operator has it. Not good to find out after an incident that they don't!

[Dave Leroy]

I don't disagree with you Roman and will pass on the link to Glenn.

However it is not unusual for companies and individuals to pass liability and associated costs on to others legally here in Canada and I doubt US is that different. For example it is done in the construction business by owners providing wrap up insurance to save costs.

I like your approach of belt and suspenders. But if you are using the waiver then why would anyone ask you about the insurance coverage?

[Glenn Bartley]

I certainly carry liability insurance to cover myself. But for foreign trips I always recommend (in fact insist) that my clients carry their own insurance.

[Rachel Hollander]

Roman - as a lawyer I can tell you it would be crazy not to have liability insurance. Even if your waiver/release of liability were to hold up (and there are no guarantees), that doesn't prevent someone from naming you as a defendant. Part of your liability insurance coverage should be the insurance company's duty to defend you in the event you are sued. The costs of defending a litigation, even if you are dismissed early on, can still mount up. Presumably your liability insurance also covers you if the negligence of one of your employees (or a participant) caused an injury to a third party not a participant in your workshop and who has not signed any kind of release/waiver.

Rachel

[John Ippolito]

Roman, an interesting discussion.


Roman - as a lawyer I can tell you it would be crazy not to have liability insurance. Even if your waiver/release of liability were to hold up (and there are no guarantees), that doesn't prevent someone from naming you as a defendant. Part of your liability insurance coverage should be the insurance company's duty to defend you in the event you are sued. The costs of defending a litigation, even if you are dismissed early on, can still mount up. Presumably your liability insurance also covers you if the negligence of one of your employees (or a participant) caused an injury to a third party not a participant in your workshop and who has not signed any kind of release/waiver.

Rachel

Good information indeed, Rachel. Apparently waivers/releases of liability don't always hold up. Also, some national parks, such as Katmai, stipulate that if you are granted a commercial use permit in the park, you must prove not only that you have adequate insurance, but more importantly that you WILL NOT ask any client/participant to sign any sort of hold harmless agreement.

[DickLudwig]

. . .

The reason I asked Roger is that no one has ever asked me about it! . . .
That's the problem no one ever asks till they sue you!

At one time I worked for a company that also had a Horse Riding Stable. Everyone who rode had to sign a wavier and agree to follow the instructions of the Ride Leader - which was written into the wavier. Well a thunder storm came up and the leader said every one had to dismount. This one rider refused. A nearby clap of thunder spooked this rider's horse and the rider was thrown off with multiple broken bones the result. You guessed it the rider sued for millions. The suit went to court where the court decided in favor of the stable and held them harmless. The turning point of the trial was the testimony of the other riders who said that everyone was told to dismount and this rider refused. But the whole thing ended up costing lots of unrecoverable money even though direct legal costs were recovered. This is why you want insurance - you never know when some nut will decide to sue you.

[Roger Clark]

I'm curious. What kind of insurance does a tour leader need and what kind of yearly cost is reasonable insurance?

Roger

[Rachel Hollander]

Roger - I don't think there is a one size fits all answer to your question other than tour providers should have general liability insurance as discussed above. Insurance needs are best discussed with a good insurance broker but some of the factors that will likely influence what type of insurance and how much of each kind of coverage is needed include whether the tour leader provides transportation, has other people who work for him/her (as employees or independent contractors), leads tours to foreign countries, pre-pays providers, is named as an additional insured on other's policies, etc.

Rachel

[Ed Cordes]

I am not an attorney. However, I guess I just assumed all legit tour operators carried the type of coverage Rachel refers to. I did run a private business for 25 years and my attorney advised that disclaimers and informed consent etc were absolutely not going to provide a safety net. Suppose you are leading a tour into a slot canyon. The weather forecast is borderline but you feel it is OK for a short time. Then the worst occurs and someone gets hurt. My bet is you will be sued and most likely lose as you made a poor judgement. Your clients trusted you based on the fact that they perceived that you had a level of expertise higher than theirs to make the judgement to proceed.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Great advice Rachel! That is what my attorney advised also and why I carry it. As you mentioned in pane #16, my provider asked many questions about my tours and even went to my website to check! They wrote the policy based on the factors you mentioned.

Thanks all of you for chiming in. Roger.....Rachel's response in pane 16 is 100% correct as far as my experience with the insurance companies.

Ed- it is the word legit that you use that had me start this topic. I see many small or individual operators (like myself) out running tours.....not sure all are "legit" when it comes to insurance....given the $$$ involved.

I hope this helps those looking for tours to ask some questions....as the insurance covers them also in casse of accident.

[Glenn Bartley]

For me it is a 3 / 4 pronged approach:

1 - It starts with due diligence. Make sure to keep my clients safe and not in any dangerous situations.
2 - Liability waiver
3 - Liability insurance for my business
4 - insist that my clients carry health insurance on all of my trips.