Responding to Critiques

[Dave Mills]

I notice a number of posters who respond to a persons critique when the critique is not positive and has a rebuttal telling the critiquer in essence they like it anyway.
Most folks know the maker likes the image but is looking for advice that is either positive or negative. I feel a rebuttal from the maker is not a positive and can have a tendancy to intimidate further critiques from that person and others.
I have posted many images and accept or reject a critique but I do not respond to the critiquer by defending my image. They have a right to their opinion without a comeback which I believe is in bad form. Curious to know other opinions on this....

[Andrew Merwin]

While the BPN people are a tough audience, I think their critiques are usually quite accurate & I find them very helpful. I post images that I want advise about. The purpose for me is to learn. I read the suggestions about my posted images in the spirit that is intended by the comments—namely to share others' opinions & expertise with intent of making me a better photographer. I have learned a great deal from this forum & I am grateful for others' opinions from throughout the world.

In my verbose way Dave, I agree with you. It is bad form to rebuke a critique that is intended as helpful.

[John Chardine]

I don't agree entirely Dave. OK, a bit of background. I am a research scientist and conduct research and write papers that appear in primary scientific journals. The process of publishing a paper involves peer review of your work. This is not a symmetrical process and for the most part you accept what the reviewer and editor says, make the changes and the paper gets published (if you are lucky!). This is not entirely analogous to the BPN process but I hope you see the similarity. But occasionally the reviewer of your paper is patently wrong and in this case you respectfully point this out to the editor, argue your case and most of the time you win if you do a good job. All this is just to say that we are all human and all make mistakes. People who write image BPN critiques are not infallible and I have seen many off-base comments about images here at BPN. These comments should not be let go because ultimately the truth does not come out and the educational value of the process suffers. And even if ultimately the comment is more true than not, the discussion usually will have pedagogic value. So no I don't agree with accepting everything a reviewer says as if it were the undeniable- things rarely if ever are.

[Ray Rozema]

I agree w Dave and Andrew for the most part. The purpose is to learn and see things from a different veiwpoint. It might be OK to respond as to why the "problem or flaw" is there. However trying to prove or disprove your position is not helpful and frequently counter productive to the goal. The discussion then becomes and arguement. I also agee w John. If there is a critique ( particularly that does not pertain to your image) and you disagree with it, If stated in the right tone it would be reasonable to outline your opinion.

:S3:

[Arthur Morris]

I disagree 100% with Dave. In many cases I learn a ton here. Countless critiques have helped me to improve images after my initial attempts at optimization. In other cases, suggestions are off the wall, sometimes inspired possibly by a "let's trash Mr. Famous Bird Photographer." In those cases I simply disagree while striving to do so in a polite way. There is nothing wrong with standing up for what you believe in.

In many cases A sees something one way and B see it another way. I have no problem with folks disagreeing as long as it is done politely. And the same goes for my critiques. It is possible for folks to disagree without arguing.

Andrew, I take issue with your choice of the word rebuke. :S3: It is a lot stronger(and more negative) than the word disagree....

Dave, If you wish to let invalid critiques stand that is of course your choice and I am fine with that for you.

[Ken Watkins]

Given the problems I have had in the past regarding my so called "negative" comments I am pleased to see this subject being brought up.

I judge each image that I comment on based on what I see and if my comments are considered harsh, so be it.

Following the suggestion of Robert Amoruso I am now trying to explain what I perceive to be the "faults" as fully as possible

Some people for reasons best known to themselves take the criticism personally, but most do not.

This is a critique forum, and it is my belief that posters are looking for assistance and suggestions as to possible improvements, rather than abject praise, although many posts deserve nothing more than abject praise.:bg3:


The critiques and suggestions that I have received on this forum have without a doubt improved the attention I pay to what images I am taking, and have improved my processing skills immensely.

[Arthur Morris]

I pretty much agree with you Ken. I strive to never take stuff personally but I reserve the right to disagree politely when I feel that folks are off base. I am always encouraging folks to do honest but gentle critiques and to lead by example by doing just that. Sometimes folks do choose to take my comments very personally.... I see that as there problem. :e3

[Hazel Grant]

Reading all these comments above as "one" I think we have arrived at what BPN is about.....critique, freedom of expression, learning. Most, including me, see this website as an opportunity to learn, to have new eyes see our work. At the same time, we have the right to either accept or reject comments....Post, learn, decide....that's what it's about. And I've personally grown so much from all this.

[John Storjohann]

I'm a relative newcomer to the forums, yet for what it may be worth...

After a year of lurking, I joined specifically for the critiques...and I made the promise to myself that every critique that came down the pipe I would at least consider and look at, whether I initially saw the merit in the critique or not. Whether it has involved cropping, a processing technique, or simply a different way of approaching a subject, I have, if possible, re-edited the image to look at what has been suggested, or, if not possible, tucked the suggestion away for my next shoot. Many times the suggestions have been incredibly insightful and have helped me move forward with my imaging, other times the suggestions haven't panned out - at least to my eye - but have still been incredibly insightful because it made me take the time to stop and look at the subject from another perspective. That being said...

I have, on occasion, replied to a comment with something along the lines of, "I tried that...it didn't work for me because...but thank you for the suggestion." I have also replied with something along the lines of, "I agree...but these circumstances prevented me from approaching the subject that way or this is I why I couldn't do it that way at that moment." I don't see an issue with disagreeing or defending an image in that way; it invites everyone to stay at the table and continue the discussion. If I make a suggestion to someone, and they dismiss it out of hand...no worries, it's their image. But if they don't agree with the technique and can share with me why...it makes me step back...look at the image...and give some thought to their perspective. Then the critique becomes a viable learning tool for both parties. For me, it's the difference between the "teacher" being an all-knowing guru that bestows information and the teacher as a facilitator and guide that helps their students engage in the educative process.

Just my two cents worth. :e3

[Arthur Morris]

Reading all these comments above as "one" I think we have arrived at what BPN is about.....critique, freedom of expression, learning. Most, including me, see this website as an opportunity to learn, to have new eyes see our work. At the same time, we have the right to either accept or reject comments....Post, learn, decide....that's what it's about. And I've personally grown so much from all this.

Well said Hazel :S3:. My mom has been a Hazel for 89 years and still is!

[Arthur Morris]

I'm a relative newcomer to the forums, yet for what it may be worth...

After a year of lurking, I joined specifically for the critiques...and I made the promise to myself that every critique that came down the pipe I would at least consider and look at, whether I initially saw the merit in the critique or not. Whether it has involved cropping, a processing technique, or simply a different way of approaching a subject, I have, if possible, re-edited the image to look at what has been suggested, or, if not possible, tucked the suggestion away for my next shoot. Many times the suggestions have been incredibly insightful and have helped me move forward with my imaging, other times the suggestions haven't panned out - at least to my eye - but have still been incredibly insightful because it made me take the time to stop and look at the subject from another perspective. That being said...

I have, on occasion, replied to a comment with something along the lines of, "I tried that...it didn't work for me because...but thank you for the suggestion." I have also replied with something along the lines of, "I agree...but these circumstances prevented me from approaching the subject that way or this is I why I couldn't do it that way at that moment." I don't see an issue with disagreeing or defending an image in that way; it invites everyone to stay at the table and continue the discussion. If I make a suggestion to someone, and they dismiss it out of hand...no worries, it's their image. But if they don't agree with the technique and can share with me why...it makes me step back...look at the image...and give some thought to their perspective. Then the critique becomes a viable learning tool for both parties. For me, it's the difference between the "teacher" being an all-knowing guru that bestows information and the teacher as a facilitator and guide that helps their students engage in the educative process.

Just my two cents worth. :e3

John, Also well said. Even though folks often call me "Maestro" and "Guruji" I strive not to simply bestow information but to question and explain. That said on a few occasions folks simply blow me off. As I lover of what is I accept that and will often try to help with another image.... But two is about my limit in that category :S3:.

[Andrew Merwin]

Andrew, I take issue with your choice of the word rebuke. :S3: It is a lot stronger(and more negative) than the word disagree....



Artie, I chose the word "rebuke" because my understanding of Dave's OP is that he was asking about a few defensive snarky comments (Remember Cookie?) that he has read. I am very comfortable with a lively discussion of differing opinions & ideas that furthers everyone's understanding & knowledge of photography. BPN is exemplary in that regard.

I agree with both Hazel's & John's comments.

[Arthur Morris]

Artie, I chose the word "rebuke" because my understanding of Dave's OP is that he was asking about a few defensive snarky comments (Remember Cookie?) that he has read. I am very comfortable with a lively discussion of differing opinions & ideas that furthers everyone's understanding & knowledge of photography. BPN is exemplary in that regard. I agree with both Hazel's & John's comments.

Hi Andrew, I do not remember "Cookie." And not to be a PITA, but I read Dave's original post:

"I notice a number of posters who respond to a person's critique when the critique is not positive and has a rebuttal telling the critiquer in essence they like it anyway. Most folks know the maker likes the image but is looking for advice that is either positive or negative. I feel a rebuttal from the maker is not a positive and can have a tendancy to intimidate further critiques from that person and others.
I have posted many images and accept or reject a critique but I do not respond to the critiquer by defending my image. They have a right to their opinion without a comeback which I believe is in bad form. Curious to know other opinions on this..."

and did not see the word "snarky" anywhere. A rebuttal can be done politely. I feel strongly that posters do not have "a right to their opinion without a comeback" and in the same vein do not feeling that disagreeing with a posted comment is "bad form."

Respectfully.

[Dave Mills]

Artie, I have seen you accept a critique you feel is valid and reject others. Is it necessary to respond to the critquer and in essence tell them they are wrong when you disagree? Do you think that should be standard practice on the site?

[Daniel Cadieux]

Politely and constructively disagreeing with a critique is OK in my book and not in bad form. Both the critiquer and the image poster (and others reading) can learn. Just getting on the defensive or saying "Well, I like my image as is" because you don't agree, well, that is another thing. Or the need to respond to every negative critique...just makes one look defensive rather than appreciative. This is a critique forum after all. Most here are good about it anyhow. I don't agree with every critique brought upon on my images... but always I keep an open mind, take it all in, and once in a while I may disagree politely if the need arises.

[Grace Scalzo]

What Daniel said. I have posted a few images where someone has made a suggestion that I don't agree with. By forcing myself to study and verbalize why I don't agree has been a learning process as well. Also vice versa, when someone responds to one of my critiques and disagrees with what I have said, that can be a learning point as well. It's all in the nature of the give and take and as long as the discussion remains respectful and open, it's all good.

[Arthur Morris]

Artie, I have seen you accept a critique you feel is valid and reject others. Is it necessary to respond to the critquer and in essence tell them they are wrong when you disagree? Do you think that should be standard practice on the site?

Oftentimes I simply do not comment. When I feel that that comment is way off base I will sometimes disagree politely. I think that the standard practice should be that folks be allowed to do what they feel is right and best for them in a given situation as long as it is done politely. You cannot legislate what is folks hearts and minds unless they get nasty.

[Arthur Morris]

Well said by Dan and Grace :S3:.

[Sid Garige]

Just getting on the defensive or saying "Well, I like my image as is" because you don't agree, well, that is another thing. Or the need to respond to every negative critique...just makes one look defensive rather than appreciative.

Daniel,

In my opinion there is nothing wrong in saying "Well, I like my images as is" if we like our image.
I am a software engineer by profession and do things against my wish sometimes just be a good team player or please upper management.
Photography is my passion and I shoot for myself and my objective is to please myself. In that process if others enjoy it then it is added bonus.
We all respect each others work and its perfectly all right to express our opinions respectfully.

Like one of my co-workers always says "If I dont feel proud of my code, then I did not put my 100%".

-Sid

[Grady Weed]

Politely and constructively disagreeing with a critique is OK in my book and not in bad form. Both the critiquer and the image poster (and others reading) can learn. Just getting on the defensive or saying "Well, I like my image as is" because you don't agree, well, that is another thing. Or the need to respond to every negative critique...just makes one look defensive rather than appreciative. This is a critique forum after all. Most here are good about it anyhow. I don't agree with every critique brought upon on my images... but always I keep an open mind, take it all in, and once in a while I may disagree politely if the need arises.

I agree with both Daniels and Sids reply here. I too take images for my enjoyment, and to share with others. Posting them to BPN is a rewarding experience, if the replies are meant to help your skills along. Occasionally some critiques are rather blunt and negative. Neither will help anyone. Perhaps all of my images are not perfect, I don't believe anyones are. But to trash an image will not help anyone. Once in a great while I've not put my reply to a critque as politely as it should have been. We all make mistakes. I make every effort to apologize when I should.

I would like to believe most here are making the best of efforts to be positive and helpful in their replies and critiques. Most here are very respectful, and I appreciate that. My thanks to James, Artie and crew for a fine teaching and hosting site!

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks Grady for your kind words. We need all the help we can get and we are getting it from our great members! Not to mention our dedicated MODs.

[John Storjohann]

Someone once commented to me that you should fall in love with your subject, but you should never fall in love with your own images. I guess you could read that several different ways, but the chord it struck with me was that I should be passionate about what I shoot but never so enamored with my own photographs that I wasn't open to critique.

Dave, I think there's been several takes on your original post and questions, and a lot of it, at least for me, comes down to what we read into a response to a critique. I've never felt that a comment like "I think the image stands on its own as is" is necessarily dismissive of my comments; for me, it simply meant that after measured consideration the photographer felt that their original vision was stronger than the suggestion I may have made. I do think that some of the photographers in the forums are more open to critique than others...in those instances, I think it's just where they might be with their craft or, more importantly, their confidence in their own vision. As they become more comfortable in their own skin as a photographer, they'll become more comfortable with critiques as well...they need to reach that positive mind set about their work first, and realizing that a "failed" image isn't an indictment of their skill, just an opportunity for growth. Sometimes it might take a little longer for some than others. :e3

I have to say that I am incredibly appreciative of the time people have taken to critique the work I have posted, and I hope that if I ever disagree with an assessment of one of my images the author of the critique understands that I still value their critique...I will have learned something from how it made me look at my image whether I agreed or not...and that if I do seem dismissive they drop me a PM with the invitation to keep an open mind and "stay at the table."

[Marina Scarr]

Reading all these comments above as "one" I think we have arrived at what BPN is about.....critique, freedom of expression, learning. Most, including me, see this website as an opportunity to learn, to have new eyes see our work. At the same time, we have the right to either accept or reject comments....Post, learn, decide....that's what it's about. And I've personally grown so much from all this.

Well said and "ditto."

[Daniel Cadieux]

Daniel,

In my opinion there is nothing wrong in saying "Well, I like my images as is" if we like our image.
I am a software engineer by profession and do things against my wish sometimes just be a good team player or please upper management.
Photography is my passion and I shoot for myself and my objective is to please myself. In that process if others enjoy it then it is added bonus.
We all respect each others work and its perfectly all right to express our opinions respectfully.
Like one of my co-workers always says "If I dont feel proud of my code, then I did not put my 100%".

-Sid

I'm not a software engineer, but I can relate to that when it comes to my dayjob. I'm also in the same boat as you when it comes to my photography.

There is nothing wrong per say, but we just got to keep in mind and accept that posting in a critique forum we'll get all sorts of differing opinions / suggestions. I think it's safe that we like most of our images as is...it all comes down to your last statement that I underlined...and I agree 100% with that:c3:

[James Shadle]

Following the suggestion of Robert Amoruso I am now trying to explain what I perceive to be the "faults" as fully as possible
Awesome.
Politely and constructively disagreeing with a critique is OK in my book and not in bad form. Both the critiquer and the image poster (and others reading) can learn. Just getting on the defensive or saying "Well, I like my image as is" because you don't agree, well, that is another thing. Or the need to respond to every negative critique...just makes one look defensive rather than appreciative. This is a critique forum after all. Most here are good about it anyhow. I don't agree with every critique brought upon on my images... but always I keep an open mind, take it all in, and once in a while I may disagree politely if the need arises.
Ditto!
In my opinion there is nothing wrong in saying "Well, I like my images as is" if we like our image.
I am a software engineer by profession and do things against my wish sometimes just be a good team player or please upper management.
Photography is my passion and I shoot for myself and my objective is to please myself. In that process if others enjoy it then it is added bonus.
We all respect each others work and its perfectly all right to express our opinions respectfully.

Like one of my co-workers always says "If I dont feel proud of my code, then I did not put my 100%".
Do you like the images you created 5 years ago as much as the images you create today? Photographers can be proud of images that they are emotionally invested , not necessarily because they are great. This is a critique forum, if you like the image as is, at least explain why you like it as is.

Here are my thoughts.
Why and how is the image creator defending their image?

If a critique is given that is clearly wrong (usually a technical point), than the creator should help the person offering the critique(as well as everyone who read it)understand their error.
The rebuttal should include facts and be polite. You know - "your whites are too hot" etc.

More issues seem to come from someone defending a composition and this can be tricky.
Was the defense a rebuke? "I know what I'm doing and you don't". Or was the defense an explanation of vision or art theory?

Bottom line, this is a critique forum. Opinions are offered. Everyone has opinions and no one thinks theirs stinks(I churched this up a bit):w3.

To prove a point, no one could possible disagree with what I just wrote.

[Sid Garige]

I'm not a software engineer, but I can relate to that when it comes to my dayjob. I'm also in the same boat as you when it comes to my photography.

There is nothing wrong per say, but we just got to keep in mind and accept that posting in a critique forum we'll get all sorts of differing opinions / suggestions. I think it's safe that we like most of our images as is...it all comes down to your last statement that I underlined...and I agree 100% with that:c3:

Daniel,

I am one of those photographers who grew-up online. I learned a lot from critics on naturescapes and BPN. I agree with you 100% on we should be open to different opinions and suggestions in critique forums. At the same time person critiquing the image should also be open to all possible responses from the maker. When I make an image, I make it to my liking. If others make suggestions to improve the image I will thank them and take it. If not I will tell them "well I like it as it is".

I worked hard, I paid for my gear, I paid for my trip and I made an image for myself. IMO it is perfectly alright to say "I like it as it is".

-Sid

[Sid Garige]

Like one of my co-workers always says "If I dont feel proud of my code, then I did not put my 100%".
[B]Do you like the images you created 5 years ago as much as the images you create today?

IMO 100% refers to the best you can do at that instance of time.
In 2005 my 100% was to get a decent flight image of great blue heron.
Today my 100% is to get a technically perfect courtship image of great blue herons. :)

To reiterate my point, I am all for critique and improvement. If I feel suggestions did not help improving my image, then there is nothing wrong in saying "I like it as it is".
Someone just asked me in an email how do I know if a certain critic will improve the image or not. IMO that is similar to asking me how do you know what you like?

-Sid

[Dave Mills]

Glad to hear others views on this and I feel it's turned into an interesting discussion. I never really wanted to debate someone on the merits of my image so thats the primary reason I don't respond. I'm not timid but I don't feel I need the hassle...

[Arthur Morris]

Yes, an interesting discussion. Hassles are in the eyes of the beholder.