Lunch

[Arthur Morris]

Great Black-backed Gulls dining on young skimmers is a common sight at Nickerson in August.

This image was created with the Canon 800mm f/5.6L IS lens, the 1.4X III TC, and the EOS 1-Mark IV. ISO 400. Evaluative metering +2/3 stop: 1/1000 sec. at f/10 set manually.

I am pretty sure that this image has no embedded profile. Converted it to sRGB it introduced significant clipping of the WHITEs when I held down the Alt Key and the Highlight Slider in Levels (as a check). Can anyone explain why this happens?

Don't be shy; all comments welcome.

[arash_hazeghi]

wow, did the gull kill the skimmer or just garbed the already dead corpse?

The whites look good on my screen as is but yes sometimes you cannot display the full tonal range in sRGB, the reason is tonal compression in the red channel when you convert from a wide-gamut space (Adobe RGB) to a limited-gamut space (sRGB). The only work around is to go back to original and bring down the red channel before sRGB conversion...sometimes it makes the whites grey and a bit unnatural though.

BTW, I think most of the common web browsers (FireFox and Safari) can read and correctly display Adobe RGB color profile so I am thinking about posting photos in Adobe RGB, too bad for people who use IE but their problem ;)

[Cheryl Arena Molennor]

I really hate seeing this behavior but Ido accept it and respect it as well as respect your talent in getting the shot. I really like the raised foot and water action and though there is no chick face (which I'm glad :) ) you can still get the image. Looks like you just made it with some of the whites nicely

[Dan Busby]

Whites don't look blown to me, although perhaps very close in a couple of spots. I would love to see how these birds capture the prey - is it in the air or along the water edge? Nice action with the foot.

[Arthur Morris]

Clarification: this one was posted as RGB I believe; the whites are way fine. :S3:

[Arthur Morris]

wow, did the gull kill the skimmer or just garbed the already dead corpse?

The whites look good on my screen as is but yes sometimes you cannot display the full tonal range in sRGB, the reason is tonal compression in the red channel when you convert from a wide-gamut space (Adobe RGB) to a limited-gamut space (sRGB). The only work around is to go back to original and bring down the red channel before sRGB conversion...sometimes it makes the whites grey and a bit unnatural though.

BTW, I think most of the common web browsers (FireFox and Safari) can read and correctly display Adobe RGB color profile so I am thinking about posting photos in Adobe RGB, too bad for people who use IE but their problem ;)

Hey Arash, I did not see this kill but have seen many. And I am pretty sure that when I spotted it the skimmer was still struggling. IAC, with that very white belly I am sure that it was freshly killed. As above, this was not posted in sRGB. I have always posted my JPEGs in Adobe RGB (since I would forget to check the embed color profile box). And folks have been raving about my JPEGs for many years so I think that I am gonna give up on the sRBG thing.

[arash_hazeghi]

Hey Arash, I did not see this kill but have seen many. And I am pretty sure that when I spotted it the skimmer was still struggling. IAC, with that very white belly I am sure that it was freshly killed. As above, this was not posted in sRGB. I have always posted my JPEGs in Adobe RGB (since I would forget to check the embed color profile box). And folks have been raving about my JPEGs for many years so I think that I am gonna give up on the sRBG thing.

Another reason to hate seagulls!

yeah why fix something if it is not broken?

BTW, this page shows you whether your browser is color-managed or not:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html

if the two photos look the same, browser can read Adobe RGB, if they are different browser can't read/display Adobe RGB- might be useful for folks to check.

[Ofer Levy]

Great behaviour captured, sharp with excellent detail! Light was a bit harsh but you did a great job with the exposure. Here is a repost with the following: adding a tiny bit room top and left, boosting colour saturation, applying some cooling filter to get the natural blue colour to the water, slightly reducing brightness and converting to sRGB. WDYT ?

[RakeshDhareshwar]

What an awesome moment captured , Artie !! Cant comment on the whites , I am seeing this on a uncallibrated monitor ...but it looks ok . Like the bird in your image and the watr in Ofer's repost :2eyes2: !!

[Arthur Morris]

Great behaviour captured, sharp with excellent detail! Light was a bit harsh but you did a great job with the exposure. Here is a repost with the following: adding a tiny bit room top and left, boosting colour saturation, applying some cooling filter to get the natural blue colour to the water, slightly reducing brightness and converting to sRGB. WDYT ?

Thanks Ofer. Much appreciated. Your version is a bit too saturated for me. The embedding of the sRGB did introduce a bit of clipping. I am gonna stick with my old way of doing things by posting my JPEGs in RGB. (See my comments to Arash in Pane 6.) I did learn a lot but am still confused by several unrelated color management issues. I should start a thread.

[Arthur Morris]

Another reason to hate seagulls!

yeah why fix something if it is not broken?

BTW, this page shows you whether your browser is color-managed or not:

http://www.gballard.net/psd/go_live_page_profile/embeddedJPEGprofiles.html

if the two photos look the same, browser can read Adobe RGB, if they are different browser can't read/display Adobe RGB- might be useful for folks to check.

Thanks for the link; I will check it out. As for gulls, I love them. Not sure why so many humans assign value to the lives of birds.... Gulls are beautiful and at times, skilled hunters. And they gotta eat. Many of the folks who do not like gulls for their predatory behavior love raptors..... And skimmers routinely kill those cute little fish.

[Ofer Levy]

Thanks Ofer. Much appreciated. Your version is a bit too saturated for me. The embedding of the sRGB did introduce a bit of clipping. I am gonna stick with my old way of doing things by posting my JPEGs in RGB. (See my comments to Arash in Pane 6.) I did learn a lot but am still confused by several unrelated color management issues. I should start a thread.
Always a pleasure Artie! I have never seen a clipping issue when converting to sRGB. I actually think white look bright with less detail in the original post. Please let me know what looks over saturated to you - the ocean, the bird or both?
Thanks!

[Arthur Morris]

Always a pleasure Artie! I have never seen a clipping issue when converting to sRGB. I actually think white look bright with less detail in the original post. Please let me know what looks over saturated to you - the ocean, the bird or both? Thanks!

The ocean. I have proven to myself over and over that converting to sRBG clips highlights by checking numerous times before and after by hitting Control L and then holding down the Alt key while clicking on the Highlight slider.

[Ofer Levy]

The ocean. I have proven to myself over and over that converting to sRBG clips highlights by checking numerous times before and after by hitting Control L and then holding down the Alt key while clicking on the Highlight slider.

OK I see - I hope the ocean still looks blue in Florida and it was just the light...:w3
I process thousands of images every week - never seen any problem with clipping because of converting to sRGB. There are enough people who use Internet Explorer to justify this simple conversion IMO.:w3

[Arthur Morris]

OK I see - I hope the ocean still looks blue in Florida and it was just the light...:w3 I process thousands of images every week - never seen any problem with clipping because of converting to sRGB. There are enough people who use Internet Explorer to justify this simple conversion IMO.:w3

This was Long Island :). Well, you had a problem with this image as there is no clipping in the Pane 1 image but there is clipping in your Pane 8 image. And that is not my opinion, it is a fact. Furthermore as I have said several times here and elsewhere, anytime there is any white in an image and I covert to sRGB I wind up with clipping even when the whites are in the 220s. Therefore, no sRGBs from me. :S3:

[Daniel Cadieux]

Thanks for the link; I will check it out. As for gulls, I love them. Not sure why so many humans assign value to the lives of birds.... Gulls are beautiful and at times, skilled hunters. And they gotta eat. Many of the folks who do not like gulls for their predatory behavior love raptors..... And skimmers routinely kill those cute little fish.

Count me in as another gull lover (but not "seagull":S3:). There was a rather tame juvie GBBG at a local beach recently...I photographed it extensively as they are not numerous up here, and usually very skittish. Once I was done some other photogs showed up and asked if there was anything good so I pointed to the gull. They all shrugged and walked right past it looking for other more "interesting" subjects. Oh well!

The RGB / sRGB thing is a tough one to understand, I don't. I've always converted to sRGB and never had a problem that I was aware of. So I guess whatever works best go for it. I just prefer people seeing the colours I intend them to hence the conversion to sRGB. I'd love to know if you do something additional to have such a huge shift during conversion?

Oh, nice image BTW, I love predator/prey behaviour such as this. The splashing action adds alot too.

[Stu Bowie]

Hey Artie, I didnt realise Gulls were so cannabalistic - interesting behaviour. Well, a beak full of skimmer certainly gives this impact, and just love the raised foot and trailing water. Interesting to see the colour shift of the water between the two posts.

[Ofer Levy]

This was Long Island :). Furthermore as I have said several times here and elsewhere, anytime there is any white in an image and I covert to sRGB I wind up with clipping even when the whites are in the 220s. Therefore, no sRGBs from me. :S3:

Anyone can do things his/her own way whether it is the right way or the wrong one, however, since many people in here follow your advice I feel it is important to note that not converting to sRGB is not a very good practice IMHO. sRGB is the right colour space for web presentation. When processing an image properly there is no problem with clipping of whites when converting to sRGB. Not converting to sRGB guaranties that many people out there will see the image way different than what it actually looks - flat with dull colours.:w3

[Marina Scarr]

Love the action/behavior you captured here. Although your whites are not clipped, I find the picture a bit bright, so here's my stab at a repost with some multiply layers @ 20%.

[Pieter de Waal]

Wow Arthur, amazing behaviour was'nt aware of this kind of behaviour with Gulls. Love the raise foot and water splash. Interesting and helpful discussion.

[Jonathan Ashton]

Interesting discussion over a super image. If we all have browsers capable of displaying RGB correctly then there is no problem, I have looked at the link and mine is OK - but what about those who do not have this facility. At least when in SRGB we should all be looking at the same thing (taking aside monitor calibration), I would suspect that if some members posted in RGB and others in SRGB then some viewers could become confused when comments were made about good or poor colour rendition. For this reason I would have thought it best to remain in SRGB (but I may be wrong in my assumption) - I would be pleased to read about opinions on this matter.

[Arthur Morris]

Interesting discussion over a super image. If we all have browsers capable of displaying RGB correctly then there is no problem, I have looked at the link and mine is OK - but what about those who do not have this facility. At least when in SRGB we should all be looking at the same thing (taking aside monitor calibration), I would suspect that if some members posted in RGB and others in SRGB then some viewers could become confused when comments were made about good or poor colour rendition. For this reason I would have thought it best to remain in SRGB (but I may be wrong in my assumption) - I would be pleased to read about opinions on this matter.

Hi Jon,

As I've said, I have always posted in RGB until recently but whenever I convert an image with white in it to sRGB I get clipping so I am gonna keep on doing what I have been doing for at least 15 years :). That's my opinion. I would of course like to see other folks start checking for clipping right after they convert to sRBB....

[Cheryl Arena Molennor]

Interesting discussion over a super image. If we all have browsers capable of displaying RGB correctly then there is no problem, I have looked at the link and mine is OK - but what about those who do not have this facility. At least when in SRGB we should all be looking at the same thing (taking aside monitor calibration), I would suspect that if some members posted in RGB and others in SRGB then some viewers could become confused when comments were made about good or poor colour rendition. For this reason I would have thought it best to remain in SRGB (but I may be wrong in my assumption) - I would be pleased to read about opinions on this matter.

I came into this problem when posting on another site yrs ago and wondered why my images were so flat and dull looking when I posted. I realized that I started using the color space Adobe 1998 as advised by my printer and was posting with that color space.. Someone pointed it out to me and so I always convert to SRGB for web. BIG difference. Art, I am sure you probably know this but I notice clipping after sharpening and again took the advice of another poster and never sharpen the brightest whites. I believe it made a difference for me.:c3:

[Arthur Morris]

I came into this problem when posting on another site yrs ago and wondered why my images were so flat and dull looking when I posted. I realized that I started using the color space Adobe 1998 as advised by my printer and was posting with that color space.. Someone pointed it out to me and so I always convert to SRGB for web. BIG difference. Art, I am sure you probably know this but I notice clipping after sharpening and again took the advice of another poster and never sharpen the brightest whites. I believe it made a difference for me.:c3:

Hi Cheryl. Understood. But nobody is believing what I am seeing. Try it yourself. Size an image for BPN. Check for clipping in Levels. Convert to sRGB. Check for clipping in Levels. If there are any whites or brights in the image you just might get a big surprise. Folks have been raving about my JPEGs for more than a decade so it does not make sense to change what I am doing unless I figure out why the clipping.... Actually, Arash explained why: compression.

[Cheryl Arena Molennor]

OK so now you got me curious. I'm gonna try it but not tonight ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ I am anxious to see the results as I never even considered it.

[Arthur Morris]

Let us know how you do. I started doing it last week and am batting 1000.....

[Cheryl Arena Molennor]

Will do.:c3:

[Arthur Morris]

Okie dokie. Go 2 bed.

[Arthur Morris]

Count me in as another gull lover (but not "seagull":S3:). There was a rather tame juvie GBBG at a local beach recently...I photographed it extensively as they are not numerous up here, and usually very skittish. Once I was done some other photogs showed up and asked if there was anything good so I pointed to the gull. They all shrugged and walked right past it looking for other more "interesting" subjects. Oh well!

The RGB / sRGB thing is a tough one to understand, I don't. I've always converted to sRGB and never had a problem that I was aware of. So I guess whatever works best go for it. I just prefer people seeing the colours I intend them to hence the conversion to sRGB. I'd love to know if you do something additional to have such a huge shift during conversion?

Oh, nice image BTW, I love predator/prey behaviour such as this. The splashing action adds alot too.

Been there, done that.... I am confused as to what you mean by this: "I'd love to know if you do something additional to have such a huge shift during conversion?"

Please explain.

[Daniel Cadieux]

I was just wondering if there was another step in your post-processing workflow that would cause you to have such a shift in sRGB conversion. I do it all the time, and although I do get very minor shifts (not noticeable to the eye), I've never had any problems doing so. I've converted images with highlights with values in the high 240s and low 250s without clipping. Are you going straight from RGB to sRGB?

P.S. I agree that if it ain't broken don't fix it, just odd how the problem is worse for others. Darn colour management!!:S3:

[Arthur Morris]

Dan, As far as I know I am not doing anything out of the ordinary. Most recently I have been converting from ProPhoto RGB to sRGb. I check before and after and bingo every time :S3:

[Jonathan Ashton]

As I understand it the gamut increases as we go from sRGB to Adobe RGB to Pro Photo RGB, this being the case if you go from pro Photo RGB to sRGB in one swoop then this is where there is more likely to be the problem - especially if you shoot pro Photo RGB to the right.
Does this make sense - hey am I right?

[Brendon Cremer]

Jonathan i dont think it makes a difference that way, i have converted from Adobe RGB to Srgb and from Pro Photo RGB to Srgb and the results are the same in the clippings.

My suggestion is. I feel the majority of people out there are using programs other than Firefox or safari (programs that can display both colours spaces with no difference), like Internet Explorer or Google Chrome and some others (that show substantial differences between the 2 colours spaces) therefore i would think its a good idea to make Converting to Srgb mandatory or at least highly recommended to create uniformity, whereby everyone no mater what program is being used sees the same image. Baring screen calibration of course:w3

[Arthur Morris]

As I understand it the gamut increases as we go from sRGB to Adobe RGB to Pro Photo RGB, this being the case if you go from pro Photo RGB to sRGB in one swoop then this is where there is more likely to be the problem - especially if you shoot pro Photo RGB to the right. Does this make sense - hey am I right?

I don't know but i do know that I shoot Pro Photo RGB to the right. Whatever you capture in you should be shooting it to the right...

[Arthur Morris]

Jonathan i dont think it makes a difference that way, i have converted from Adobe RGB to Srgb and from Pro Photo RGB to Srgb and the results are the same in the clippings.

My suggestion is. I feel the majority of people out there are using programs other than Firefox or safari (programs that can display both colours spaces with no difference), like Internet Explorer or Google Chrome and some others (that show substantial differences between the 2 colours spaces) therefore i would think its a good idea to make Converting to Srgb mandatory or at least highly recommended to create uniformity, whereby everyone no mater what program is being used sees the same image. Barring screen calibration of course:w3

I use Google Chrome and my RGB JPEGs look great to me and have for years. Without any clipping. It seems that you are saying that you are OK with clipping the WHITEs. Am I understanding that correctly?

[Brendon Cremer]

Arthur i understand what you are saying. But i also think it is just because you and everyone else who has been following your images for so long are used to seeing your images in RGB. Just as it is fact that converting to Srgb creates clipping in the image, it is fact that Srgb is the proper colour profile to use for web publishing, this was developed by HP and Microsoft in the late 90's
"It seems that you are saying that you are OK with clipping the WHITEs. Am I understanding that correctly?"

But this is not the case, the resized web image converted to Srgb will give the indications of clipping, but the important image "the master file" still in Adobe RGB or Pro Photo RGB will be perfect with no clipping anywhere!

A quick one, you are using Google Chrome, if you print and image in RGB and place it next to the screen of the same image posted here on BPN for example in RGB, do they look the same? Because they shouldnt when comparing to an image displayed on Google Chrome.

[Mital Patel]

am surprised with this image. was not aware about this situation where a Great black back gull can eat/kill skimmer. absolute brilliant nature moment you have witnessed.