BPN Usage

[Fred Canter]

After reading the thread about "Participant" versus "Member" it has me thinking about the use of BPN. Having been a participant for a bit, then a paid member, I find myself only posting a small amount of images. Looking at my images I tend to see them in one of several groups:
1. Photos that may have a flaw but are still good enough I don't need to see what others think.
2. Photos that are keepers for other reasons besides what is considered to be a good or great nature photo.
3. Photos that I'm on the fence on as there are elements that please me but other elements that don't. To simplify this, photos that I personally like but need changes and I don't really know what changes to make.
Obviously the categories listed are examples only but do apply somewhat. I'd like to be more involved here, but a lot of times I'll consider posting a shot then I'll ask myself "why" as I know what's wrong with it and tend to only post when I can't figure out if the shot works or not. An example is the recent Anole shot I posted, I like the Anole itself but the other elements of the photo bother me but I couldn't figure out how to edit it more or just try to get a better shot (of course I will try for a better shot anyway, but hopefully you get my meaning).
There are a lot of great images posted on the site, and sometimes I'll have an image I'd like some feedback on but after looking at it I'll decide it's not good enough to post here.
I guess the purpose of this thread is to see how to better utilize BPN. Honestly sometimes I feel I should post my absolute best shots, but on the flip side of that when they are good I generally know that and definitely know when they're bad.
So in my long convoluted way, how do you decide what image to post?

[John Chardine]

Fred- My experience is that no matter how good you think your image is, you will benefit from the opinion of others. That eliminates your first category. You ALWAYS need to ask what others think. I know this from being a scientist and having to deal with the publishing process in high-level science journals. Every paper you submit is the best you have written but that has no relevance in the peer-review process. Independent reviewers will have differing opinions and you just have to accept this. Ultimately your product will benefit if you embrace this process. BPN is unique on the web IMO because we have an essentially similar peer review process. If you make images that you feel will not benefit from the opinions of others then, with resect, you have ceased to become a life-long learner.

To answer your question- the best way to use BPN is to post anything and everything. Ultimately you will learn regardless of the absolute quality (whatever that is) of the image.

[Joel Haas]

Just returned from Brazil and disappointed to find "ghosts" in majority of images. Some Exif data:
Shutter speed: 1/1250 sec
Aperture: 6.3
Exposure mode: Av
Exposure compensation: +1 1/3
Flash: Off
Metering mode: Multi-segment
ISO: 2000
Lens: 140 to 400mm
Focal length: 292mm
Subject distance: 655 m
Image size: 545 x 524
White balance: Auto

New to the BPN so do not know how to attach image.

Thanks in advance for advice ( on attaching image ) or comments

[Fred Canter]

John,
I agree that even what I think are good images can benefit from other sets of eyes. It's possible that I'm more controlled by my mindset than I realize. Your reference to peer review at the scientific level makes me realize the difference in how my outlook is. For my livelihood I'm the exact opposite, everything is secret and controlled by non-disclosure agreements. Peer review is very limited or non-existant, it either works correctly or you handle the problems and make it work Having dealt with this for many years I'm sure it bleeds over into other areas of my personality. That said, I'll try to get more out of my membership here, as the whole point of using BPN is to gain knowledge and improve.

[John Chardine]

Just returned from Brazil and disappointed to find "ghosts" in majority of images. Some Exif data:
Shutter speed: 1/1250 sec
Aperture: 6.3
Exposure mode: Av
Exposure compensation: +1 1/3
Flash: Off
Metering mode: Multi-segment
ISO: 2000
Lens: 140 to 400mm
Focal length: 292mm
Subject distance: 655 m
Image size: 545 x 524
White balance: Auto

New to the BPN so do not know how to attach image.

Thanks in advance for advice ( on attaching image ) or comments

Hi Joel- Suggest you first refer to posting guidelines here:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/73827-ETL-Guidelines-with-Posting-Guidelines-and-Instructions-Revised-02-24-2011

Then start posting and let us see if we can diagnose the problems you are having.

[Daniel Cadieux]

Fred, I agree with John. My best image is the one I haven't taken yet...and with my images critiqued I bring alot of the information/suggestions along with me on the field to try to get that image. I don't have to agree with everything and everyone 100%, but it gives me more incentive to push myself and grow as a photographer - and I do learn tons from the collective output.

On the flip side of the BPN experience is critiquing others' images as well. You'll find you'll get alot out of your membership this way too. When critiquing other peoples' images you tend to start bringing that with you in the field too and start self-consciously asking yourself questions before triggering the shutter button (e.g. "why am I composing this way?" "perhaps I should wait for the subject to turn around?" or "maybe I should get lower?"). Posting AND critiquing is a win-win situation:S3:

[Joel Haas]

Hi Joel- Suggest you first refer to posting guidelines here:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/73827-ETL-Guidelines-with-Posting-Guidelines-and-Instructions-Revised-02-24-2011

Then start posting and let us see if we can diagnose the problems you are having.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Thanks, John, will do that. Also, have paid my $20.00 for membership

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hey Fred,
since I started the participant versus member thread I think I would like to chime in! I think you are under estimating why you should critique! If you have some strong thoughts/opinions about your own image......critiquing and listening to others......even if they disagree with you.....is the fastest way to grow as a photographer.....and you may not even realize it. Seeing....by critiquing....is a great way to learn and grow. don't under estimate that part of it!

[Fred Canter]

Joel, it doesn't matter to me if you posted this on this thread but I think you'll get the response you need by starting a new thread, possibly in the Eager To Learn section.



Just returned from Brazil and disappointed to find "ghosts" in majority of images. Some Exif data:
Shutter speed: 1/1250 sec
Aperture: 6.3
Exposure mode: Av
Exposure compensation: +1 1/3
Flash: Off
Metering mode: Multi-segment
ISO: 2000
Lens: 140 to 400mm
Focal length: 292mm
Subject distance: 655 m
Image size: 545 x 524
White balance: Auto

[Fred Canter]

Daniel, I whole heartedly agree that my best shot hasn't been taken yet. I can say that even with my limited usage it has made me think more when in the field. I do read a lot here and take a lot from it, I've just been slow at posting. My lack of posting is attributed to a number of reasons, but a primary one has been that I see things about the images that lead me to think, well this or that should have been done different. When I see points such as this I think, well there is no reason to ask for critiques people are only going to tell me this or that should have been done differently.
I do understand what you're saying it's just a mindset I have to get past

Fred, I agree with John. My best image is the one I haven't taken yet...and with my images critiqued I bring alot of the information/suggestions along with me on the field to try to get that image. I don't have to agree with everything and everyone 100%, but it gives me more incentive to push myself and grow as a photographer - and I do learn tons from the collective output.

On the flip side of the BPN experience is critiquing others' images as well. You'll find you'll get alot out of your membership this way too. When critiquing other peoples' images you tend to start bringing that with you in the field too and start self-consciously asking yourself questions before triggering the shutter button (e.g. "why am I composing this way?" "perhaps I should wait for the subject to turn around?" or "maybe I should get lower?"). Posting AND critiquing is a win-win situation:S3:

[Fred Canter]

Roman, I'm glad you weighed in as your thread is what prompted my thinking. Specifically going from a participant to a member. The $20 fee doesn't enter the equation, but I was asking myself if I was utilizing what I pay for. I know several people I've suggested to join the site and a few who are members, members in the loose sense as I don't know whether they paid or not, after looking around some they have basically said their images are not good enough for this site and were slightly intimidated and either don't post or didn't join. I've tried to convince them to post in ETL and start improving but haven't been successful in convincing them. It comes back to my own feelings of probably most of my own images. I'll think of posting an image and then I'll go over it critically and see enough to be done differently that I'll not post it as I see it as a waste of space and there is no reason to have people take their time to tell me what I already know. Other shots will have the perfect BG, color, sharpness, differences will be in the crop maybe but a lot of times that is personal preference.
I do agree that getting and giving critique do a tremendous amount toward improving. I just think I worry too much about getting everything right before I'll even post it, even though I know that is not conducive to learning.

Hey Fred,
since I started the participant versus member thread I think I would like to chime in! I think you are under estimating why you should critique! If you have some strong thoughts/opinions about your own image......critiquing and listening to others......even if they disagree with you.....is the fastest way to grow as a photographer.....and you may not even realize it. Seeing....by critiquing....is a great way to learn and grow. don't under estimate that part of it!

[Hazel Grant]

Fred, I think you should stop trying to talk to yourself about this and just post. If you read postings and critiques on BPN regularly, you'll see clearly that it is indeed the rare photo that doesn't have some suggestion of IMHO idea attached to it. some are technical, some are compositional, and some are just opinions that even other critiquers disagree with. In 4 years as a member, I have yet to get a 100% positive response. That's not all bad. At the same time, you get encouragement and stretch yourself. I can't tell you how I've grown through BPN as a photographer (and I know I have a long way to go.) Stop thinking about it and just post. If you don't want to post, then critique for a while. The pleasure and learning is in the doing.

[Dave Mills]

Fred, I feel your being way to hard on yourself which is not benefiting you. Most folks who post an image feel it's pretty good. The learning comes in when folks suggest things you never thought of which makes sense. This could help to improve the image but most importantly you will walk away with another tip or two to take into the field with you. Thats a learning process which has enabled the growth of many photographers on the site.
My advice...post your images which you feel are good or have questions. Over time you should benefit from the experience...

[Mike Tracy]

My position :

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/72525-Which-of-Your-Images-Do-You-Choose-to-Post-and-Why?highlight=

I very seldom post what I think are my best images. BPN to me is not a place to showcase my work but rather to get opinions as to whether what I consider a decent image appeals to others. From that point I know what I want to improve on the next time I am placed in a similar situation.

I think the ETL forum is a wonderful source for those either just entering photography itself or avian in particular. If I was just starting out you would see me posting ( and critiquing) images everyday.

[James Shadle]

Post it all.
If you post a truly great image, perhaps a fellow member will learn from it.
Post experimental images, post images your on the fence about.

I have yet to meet the perfect photographer (I've seen images that couldn't get any better:w3) and feel everyone can benefit from other eyes and opinions.

IMO how you use BPN depends on where you want to be as a photographer.
Competent, outstanding, great or one in a million.

James

[Don Lacy]

I post what I feel are my best or solid images if I am trying to get better why would I post an image I know has flaws they don't even make the first cut anymore and good images do not survive the second cut unless there is something unique about them. When I post what I feel is a strong image and get all positive feed back then I know the image works and it validates my thought process and techniques used to create the image. When I get suggestions to improve the image it helps me see differently and helps me improve as a photographer. To also be perfectly honest I only want my best work out there :bg3:

[John Chardine]

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Thanks, John, will do that. Also, have paid my $20.00 for membership

Thanks for your support Joel.

[Sachin Saraf]

I go out for shoot every weekend in hope of making best images which no one has ever made....

I take 1-2k pictures chimp through them process 3-4 at the max 15 Images and when I am ready to upload on Flickr I ask hundred questions to my self...But I chose those images from my couple of thousand hard earned images and I still have doubt...what to do? Who should I look up to for help?

I put them here on BPN and every time I did that my doubts were cleared and I went back re processed image and then uploaded them and showed to everyone else I want to share it with.

Where I post it?
If I feel it is pretty good but still lacks few aspects I put it in: Avian
If I feel it is just an average Image which can still benefit if I get input on few of the things which can make it better I put it in: ETL

And it always worked for me...My First Image was corrected by Aretie and straight away I knew what I did wrong...I Improved! (I was just a participant then...he always provides feedback irrespective of what your status is- member or participant)
Recently one of my shot was re processed by KD and you won't trust me my PP has been to next level just by listening to what he said and looking at what he did to my Image.

Everyone here is to help each other improve, we just need to put the image in right place to get the maximum feedback...Artie and team has designed the website very close to what I think is perfect to learn and improve as a community.

Make best use of it by being active participant in posting and critiquing when ever you get time.

[Sachin Saraf]

Specifically going from a participant to a member. The $20 fee doesn't enter the equation, but I was asking myself if I was utilizing what I pay for. I know several people I've suggested to join the site and a few who are members, members in the loose sense as I don't know whether they paid or not, after looking around some they have basically said their images are not good enough for this site and were slightly intimidated and either don't post or didn't join. I've tried to convince them to post in ETL and start improving but haven't been successful in convincing them.

I was on the same boat I was convinced but wasn't pulling the trigger when my wife asked me couple of questions:

How much have you spent on equipment to make better pictures?
More than $5k

How Much is annual Fees?
$20

How Much that means per month?
$1.66

How much that mean per day?
$0.055

Then she said you will make better images by paying that small amount more than just investing in gear...
I paid my dues the same day.

Plus being in software industry I understand it takes $$ to run the website and host so many images and mange it.

[Hilary Hann]

Sachin, wives are amazing creatures aren't they!! :bg3:

[Sachin Saraf]

I know :S3:

[James Shadle]

Sachin,
Your wife is brilliant.
James

[Harshad Barve]

IMO how you use BPN depends on where you want to be as a photographer.
Competent, outstanding, great or one in a million.

James

Very well said James , gotta love BPN


Hey Sachin

Glad that you become member

[Fred Canter]

A thought provoking thread, now let me post and see where I can go...

[Sachin Saraf]

Hey Sachin

Glad that you become member


Hey Harshad,

Yes, it is really wonderful to be a part of BPN Family/community...

I look forward to catch up with you once I come back to India...