Are you as a wildlife photographer - an ARTSIT or a CRAFTSMAN?

[Ofer Levy]

Hi all,<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
One more topic that I would like to discuss…<o:p></o:p>
I often see wildlife photographers who refer to their photos as “ART” mentioning “CREATING AN IMAGE” etc.<o:p></o:p>
I don’t think I am an artist, I don’t feel I create an image. I am a CRAFTSMAN and I capture nature’s creation.<o:p></o:p>
Would love to hear what other people feel.
Thanks!:w3<o:p></o:p>

[Dan Brown]

I believe that we do create when we press the button. In fact, I think legally, we create and it is our property when we press the button. No one else but you pressed the button. YOU CREATED IT! YOU ARE THE MAKER!

I like this definition of ARTIST gleaned from wiki and previously posted -

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 A follower of a pursuit in which skill comes by study or practice
 A follower of a manual art, such as a mechanic
 One who makes their craft a fine art

Artist is a descriptive term applied to a person who engages in an activity deemed to be an art. An artist also may be defined unofficially as "a person who expresses him- or herself through a medium". The word is also used in a qualitative sense of, a person creative in, innovative in, or adept at, an artistic practice. Most often, the term describes those who create within a context of the fine arts or 'high culture', activities such as drawing, painting, sculpture, acting, dancing, writing, filmmaking ,photography, and music—people who use imagination, talent, or skill to create works that may be judged to have an aesthetic value. Art historians and critics define artists as those who produce art within a recognized or recognizable discipline. Contrasting terms for highly-skilled workers in media in the applied arts or decorative arts include artisan, craftsman, and specialized terms such as potter, goldsmith or glassblower.
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Most of the time much prep has gone into tweaking our camera bodies/lenses with the many settings/bells and whistles available to produce what we want. Then even more prep/research/travel goes into setting up for a particular shot, whether it be to capture a certain behavior or aesthetic, or both, which is the ultimate!

The above could simply qualify as craftsmanship, and I am ok with someone believing that about him/herself, at this point. I have studied watercolor painting for some time now and the first time someone called me an artist, it was shocking, as I really feel that I am a mire student. I am far, far from a master, either at painting or photography, but am viewed by some as an artist in both mediums. But, the images/paintings produced, printed and displayed, say, in an ART gallery, are considered by many to be ART - produced by an ARTIST. My ego likes this but I am still not really sold on it (me, an artist?). But, art is in the eye of the beholder.

With digital photography, we capture an image after much prep and then apply some digital doctoring to produce the above prints, such as removal, selective sharpening, dodging/burning and cropping, this is where the craftsman really steps into the realm of creating an art piece. The things being done here are really, really close to what a painter does in producing a painting.

Now, if we go the next step into the post-processing of an image and we really open up the bag of digital tricks, I believe we are practicing the ART of digitally manipulating images and producing art. Our products may be crummy but still considered art.

So, in a sense, it's not for us to decide? ART IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!!

My 3 cents.

[Ofer Levy]

Thanks Dan,
When my dentist takes an x-ray image of my teeth he does the above:(as per your comment)
Only him presses the button.
He has to set the x-ray device and position the jaw in the proper position etc.
He needs to have the skill to do that properly.

Would my teeth x-ray image be considered an ART and my dentist an ARTIST? if not - how my photography is much different than his x-ray work?

I am not talking about manipulating wildlife photos to make Digital Creation work as this is definitely a form of ART as the artist in this case creates something totally different than what was captured in camera.

[Dan Brown]

Thanks Dan,
When my dentist takes an x-ray image of my teeth he does the above:(as per your comment)
Only him presses the button.
He has to set the x-ray device and position the jaw in the proper position etc.
He needs to have the skill to do that properly.

Would my teeth x-ray image be considered an ART and my dentist an ARTIST? if not - how my photography is much different than his x-ray work?

I am not talking about manipulating wildlife photos to make Digital Creation work as this is definitely a form of ART as the artist in this case creates something totally different than what was captured in camera.

Pressing the button is creating IMHO. I have seen dental xrays as art! Also other types of xrays? IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!

[Andrew Merwin]

I think you need to consider the intent of making an image. Radiographs are not taken with an artistic intent. They are used for medical diagnosis. Many photographers create images with the intent of creating a work of art. I think they are artists. They consider light, subject, composition, color, etc. just as a artist would. Photojournalists usually take images to record an event. While their images may be very artistic, the intent is a record of what happened. Fashion photography is intended to show fashion as opposed to an artistic endeavor.

[Ofer Levy]

Thanks Andrew, fashion photography is definitely a form of art IMHO. The photographer has to create an image from scratch using his personal light, selecting the BG and doing whatever needed to get the image he had in mind.
If you take two fashion photographers and ask them to photograph the same model they will come up with totally different images.
In most of our work as wildlife photographers we have little control over what is going on in the image. (unless it is a setup which I think getting much closer to being an art.)
I am not sure the intention alone is a good way to differentiat between what is an art and what is a craft.

[Sid Garige]

Ofer,

Here is "True Artistic Wildlife Photographer: :)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzyzB3c_K58

[Ofer Levy]

This is great Sid!!
I do agree that this is a form of art.
The photographer had this idea in mind. Then he brought the animal to the studio, arranged the light, BG etc.
Very different to what most of us do when we drive our cars shooting whatever we see through the window....:bg3:

[Bob Decker]

As a nature photographer you make many decisions that effect the resulting image. Wide angle, telephoto or something in-between. Wide open or stopped down. High ISO, low ISO. Fast shutter speed or drag the shutter. Vertical or horizontal presentation. Polarizer, ND filter, no filter. All of these "technical" choices has a profound effect on the final image.

But it's not just technical decisions. Subject to the left of the frame or two the right. Lot's of negative space or a tight view on the subject. Apply the rule of thirds, leading lines, harmonic balance... or throw all of the rules out the window. Again, compositional decisions that will make or break an image.

Still the job's not over. Take the image file straight out of camera? Probably not. Will it be color or black & white? A little dodge here, a little burn there. Cloning, vignettes, sharpening... levels and curves. So many things that change how the final image will look.

Sounds a lot like the decisions an artist would make to me. :w3

[Ofer Levy]

As a nature photographer you make many decisions that effect the resulting image. Wide angle, telephoto or something in-between. Wide open or stopped down. High ISO, low ISO. Fast shutter speed or drag the shutter. Vertical or horizontal presentation. Polarizer, ND filter, no filter. All of these "technical" choices has a profound effect on the final image.

But it's not just technical decisions. Subject to the left of the frame or two the right. Lot's of negative space or a tight view on the subject. Apply the rule of thirds, leading lines, harmonic balance... or throw all of the rules out the window. Again, compositional decisions that will make or break an image.

Still the job's not over. Take the image file straight out of camera? Probably not. Will it be color or black & white? A little dodge here, a little burn there. Cloning, vignettes, sharpening... levels and curves. So many things that change how the final image will look.

Sounds a lot like the decisions an artist would make to me. :w3

Thanks Bob, that sounds very good to me. Maybe I AM an artist after all....:eek:

[Sid Garige]

Ofer,

Frankly, who cares if it is art or craft or "that certain something - French call". If I like my image that is all it matters. :S3:
If you think you are an artist then you are an artist. If not then you are not. Just my 3&1/2 cents.

-sid

[Bob Decker]

Very different to what most of us do when we drive our cars shooting whatever we see through the window.... :bg3:


My concept of a nature photographer has very little to do with the crowd that drives around in their cars shooting whatever they see. That's not meant to belittle those that take that approach but to me a lot of nature photography is about the experience of being out there... the hikes, the dirt, the water. It's more than pointing a lens at some creature or plant and tripping the shutter.

[Andrew Merwin]

Ofer, IMHO, what is art & what is craft are not mutually exclusive. A craft can & does create art. Much of folk art is a craft & it is considered art as well. So, I would say that you are definitely an artist who is also crafty.

[Jay Gould]

Ofer, before this goes down the same road as the last thread, how about some definitions?

You posted the question in the context of photography; the answer might be different if you were discussing cabinet making; I don't know.

What I do know is that you have created the context - Wildlife Photographer - and used what you consider two terms of art: Artist and Craftsman.

What is the definition of each term of art that you are using; what are similarities; what are the differences?

And, even though there are no landscapes on your beautiful website ........... hmmmmmmmmmm ...... are you a Wildlife Photographer or an Avian Photographer :w3

would the definition be different if the context was, for example, landscape photography?

I do have an opinion based upon my definitions of the two terms of art; however, since you asked the question you should provide the definitions for us to use when answering your question.

Ain't this fun!! :5

[Ofer Levy]

Thank you for the excellent input guys!
I feel that Bob's comment: "As a nature photographer you make many decisions that effect the resulting image. Wide angle, telephoto or something in-between. Wide open or stopped down. High ISO, low ISO. Fast shutter speed or drag the shutter. Vertical or horizontal presentation. Polarizer, ND filter, no filter. All of these "technical" choices has a profound effect on the final image.

But it's not just technical decisions. Subject to the left of the frame or two the right. Lot's of negative space or a tight view on the subject. Apply the rule of thirds, leading lines, harmonic balance... or throw all of the rules out the window. Again, compositional decisions that will make or break an image.

Still the job's not over. Take the image file straight out of camera? Probably not. Will it be color or black & white? A little dodge here, a little burn there. Cloning, vignettes, sharpening... levels and curves. So many things that change how the final image will look.

Sounds a lot like the decisions an artist would make to me".

Together with Dan's comment "IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER!" make a complete picture for me.

[Ofer Levy]

Ofer, before this goes down the same road as the last thread, how about some definitions?

You posted the question in the context of photography; the answer might be different if you were discussing cabinet making; I don't know.

What I do know is that you have created the context - Wildlife Photographer - and used what you consider two terms of art: Artist and Craftsman.

What is the definition of each term of art that you are using; what are similarities; what are the differences?

And, even though there are no landscapes on your beautiful website ........... hmmmmmmmmmm ...... are you a Wildlife Photographer or an Avian Photographer :w3

would the definition be different if the context was, for example, landscape photography?

I do have an opinion based upon my definitions of the two terms of art; however, since you asked the question you should provide the definitions for us to use when answering your question.

Ain't this fun!! :5
Hi Jay, I was actually thinking about landscape photography and for some reason it feels much easier for me to classify this type of photography as ART. I think the main difference is that there are a million ways to photograph the same landscape at a certain time....

[Jay Gould]

How about some definitions?

And, if you were thinking about landscapes in posing this question, what are photographers like yourself and Artie, and , and , and , ....................


Shooters?



PS: i am going to be in Sydney over Xmas - lets go to the Blue Mtns (or somewhere else you might suggest) and create some landscapes, or shoot some birds!! :cheers:

[Jay Gould]

Sid, the video is brilliant. Moose certainly is a shooter :eek:!

[Ofer Levy]

How about some definitions?

And, if you were thinking about landscapes in posing this question, what are photographers like yourself and Artie, and , and , and , ....................


Shooters?



PS: i am going to be in Sydney over Xmas - lets go to the Blue Mtns (or somewhere else you might suggest) and create some landscapes, or shoot some birds!! :cheers:
Hi Jay, I am not very good in making definitions - I am sure others will do a better job...:w3
As to bird photographers like myself - I don't feel like an artist when I get a great shot of a flying bird. The result can be stunning but I didn't have to use any artisitic skills in order to capture the image. I didn't plan much too - the bird made most of the decisions....:w3
I can see how this is all not a B&W topic and there are no right and wrong answers.
Give me a call when you are in Sydeny - 0415941641
Cheers mate! :w3

[Jay Gould]

Here is some food for thought:

http://www.theprofessionalphotographyforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=956


http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1021480


http://www.photosig.com/go/forums/read;jsessionid=a9sYUYxQLAT5P8Vf63?id=215091



A lot of photographers have discussed this very question; just Google: Is a photographer a craftsman or an artist.


Now, IMHO, photography is a craft; so is painting; so is cabinet making.

The end product is a work of Art.

All of the decisions that go into creating the image in camera are decisions of a craftsman and some like Artie, You, and many other Avian photographers, and some photographers like Roman, Dave, John Shaw, Kah Kat Yoong and many other Landscape photographers, all "do" the craft at the highest level.

The application of one's craft may or may not create a work of art; recognizing of course that Art Is In The Eye Of The Beholder.

What is ultimately Art to one person is crap to another person. I have no doubt that if you were to look at the images you created when you were first starting out, you thought they were art and today they are crap because what you are now creating you consider Art.

i can remember Artie saying an image of mine was "Yuk!" He certainly didn't think that image rose to the level of Art.

For some, the RAW image is not the work of art; it is what they do with it after in PP that creates the object of art.

Kind of like a cabinet maker that takes his raw piece of furniture and thru the application of various sand papers and varnishes etc he turns a piece of craft into a piece of art.

For some of us learners, while we may think our final product is our art, other might feel that the RAW product coming out of certain professionals' camera is more artistic than the finished product we are posting for critique or showing to our friends.

The bottom line: photographers are both craftsman and artists. It just depends where on the production line you are asking the question.

IMHO.

[Charles Glatzer]

IMO..."A craftsman is one who can effectively use the tools of his trade to produce a work of art."

Chas

[Charles Glatzer]

IMO..."A craftsman is one who can effectively use the tools of his trade to produce a work of art."

Chas

An Artist is someone who can produce such works on a consistent basis.

I believe the Artist title is something that should be bestowed by others, not the craftsman, wink.

Chas

[Jay Gould]

Hey Mate, I will agree with #21 absolutely.

I will disagree with #22. While clearly the time taken by others to achieve the title of Artist bestowed by others is the incentive for many to pursue the craft to a point of excellence, I would not negate the self-bestowed title.

While many are Supreme Craftsmen and Artists, I consider myself, for example, a better Artist than a Craftsman. I need to do more PP to achieve art that satisfies me than photographers like yourself who produce far and away significantly higher quality RAW files.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Another interesting topic! Having started as a landscaper mostly (thanks Jay for the high praise) I don't feel one is superior to the other. All branches have their difficulty and challenges. When you first pick up the camera.....you are an apprentice. Become proficient with the tools......you become a craftsman.....master the tools....IMO you do become an artist! Ofer, you forget that you take ceratain things for granted now.....such as light quality, angle, wind, your position, etc........which is now intuitive.....you have mastered some elements beyond the tool in your hand.......you are making choices in the field......which is your pallette.....just as an artist would. Don't believe me.....put 10 photographers side by side in a situation......whether it is landscape, animal, or BIF.....the artist/masters......will capture very similar moments......and yet each will probably have subtle differences.....all choices by the artist. The apprentices will not "see" the moment.....and probably miss it because of the subtle things you take for granted....but know to look for. Pre-visualization and skill of a master.....allow you to elevate photography to the artist level......because you can use those tools in your hand.....and create what you chose or foresaw or even adapted too.....because of the situation. That level IMO.....seperates the craftsman from the artist......but all stages are necessary to achieve that final goal. It is a process that everyone goes through and judging your work.......indeed you are an artist with the camera.