Any hunters among us?

[Jim Poor]

I've been asked to shoot (and did) a couple hunt tests for different dog clubs in the area.

At the first test, the birds were quail and "chuckers." They didn't seem to have much will to live and didn't linger after being shot.

The second test featured mallards and on the first day,quite a few of them lingered on after being shot and even after having been retrieved. The second day featured better gunners or bigger bird shot and was much "better."

Still, I'm having a tough time reconciling the bird photographer in me with these events. The dogs really loved it and I got some wonderful images, but . . .


Any thoughts one way or another? Anyone both hunt and photograph the same game?

I'll spare you the retriever images, but a couple can be found on my facebook page www.facebook.com/jimpoor or my proofing site www.jimpoor.com/photocart if you're interested.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hey Jim,
Not a hunter....except with a Canon;).....but I have relatives who do so I can sympathize with your conflict. I don't know if I could do the photo shoot....just because of the reasons you mention....I now want to photograph the birds! I have no issue with people who hunt for food and eat what they kill. I do have issues/concerns with sport hunting. That being said, I will not impose my beliefs on others.....unless in the case of endangered species. I'd imagine many of these people have been brought up this way....yes we can try to educate blah/blah/blah.....but in the end it will still be an ethical and personal choice IMO. I do think this should go into general where I think it will get more traffic and opinions. I can say this....knowing someone who does photograph these events in NJ.....they certainly love their dogs! If it does get moved to general....let's keep it civil! BTW....wassup?...long time no see!

[Jim Poor]

Yeah, was going to put a photo in it that was more for "friends & family," but given my own conflicted thoughts, figured I'd leave that out.

Wassup? 59 dog sport events in 2010 plus private portraits. Trying to cut that to 25-30 events next year and build up a fine art portrait clientele. Maybe then I'll have time to get out with the birds again someday!

[Cody Newman]

I hunt alot, and actually that is what got me into photography. I am not a bird hunter though. I just love being outdoors and watching wildlife. Most that hunt have a huge passion for the animals/birds them selfs. I see the problem and all have there own comfort level you have to make that call. Personaly I wanted to make an excuse to go out more in the off season so I started taking pics to show friends of what I found before hunting season, loved it so much know I enjoy just as much as hunting plus I have somthing to look at all year either way and I can share pics with hunters and animal lovers alike :)

[David Smith]

Yes, I hunt.. I hunt Doves, Ducks, Turkeys, Deer, coyotes and am leaving Saturday for a Elk Hunt in Colorado.. I hunted long before I became a photographer and I found that by being a hunter, it allows me to use those skills, to get closer to the Birds and animals that I photograph.... I DO NOT, HOWEVER, photograph the birds and animals that I shoot at or have shot..

Dave

[Chris Knight]

I used to be an avid hunter, now I hunt only with my Nikon, it gives me the same feeling of hunting just a different end result. Not that I am against hunting I just dont feel the need to take game anymore. If they close the supermarkets I might have to pick up a gun again. I photograph a lot of hunters. It is a good thing that the hunters use and train dogs for the sport it results in a lot less game lost to crippled game swimming of to die and hunters shooting more. It can be hard to watch and see if you have not been exposed to such things. But if you want a real experience go to a slaughter house, it will make a vegan out of you.

[gary ellwein]

I was an avid hunter in my youth. Growing up in the Dakotas, it was part of the cuture. Now a Nikon has replaced the 12 guage. I can still get up at half past dark, cinch up leaky chest waders and get cold, wet and muddy. The knowledge and skills acquired in years gone by are still applicable. Being properly positioned and have a flock of mallards willow leaf into your lap is still a thrill. Processing images is a lot more fun than cleaning ducks.

I have nothing against ethical hunters. License fees and contributions from hunting organizations such as Ducks Unlimited maintain and acquire valuabe habitat.

[Doug Campbell]

I don't hunt much anymore but as long as it's fair chase and the meat is consumed, I have no problem with it. It sounds like your first group of shooters were either poor shots or using improper loads. By the way, "sport hunting" in most areas provides meat for the local population who might not get it otherwise. Africa is a prime example as no part of the animal is wasted after the kill.

[Eric Virkler]

I do not hunt, but many of my friends do. Listening to our conversations of time in the field and tracking or sighting of animals you'd think we were both using the information for the same outcome. Many of these guys would like to get better with a camera to bring back shots of those rare and wonderful experiences in the woods. Even some of the gear is the same. My wife bought me full camo for Christmas one year, and a self climbing tree stand the next. If one of us is about to 'shoot' a buck, I prefer my way. Once that shot is taken the hunters work is about to begin, whereas I get to keep on shootin.

Eric

Faces of Nature Photography
www.ericjvirkler.com (http://www.ericjvirkler.com)

[Nancy Bell]

For me it is a question of a clean kill. If the retrieved bird is not dead one must immediately ring its neck. I trained my 2 English Setters for hunt test compition and found that in my area it was a fair and ethical sport. Our planted game birds were hardy and the dogs had to work for their targets. There are many more aspects to the sport besides the moment of killing a bird. For me the bonding with my dogs was paramont and during the hours and days and months of training we killed very few birds. Our training birds were barn pigeons and we would use one dead pigeon over and over again, allowing the live pigeons to fly back to their roost. Digital cameras were not yet invented when I did this. Today I no longer train setters, although I am still a huge sucker for the English Setters.

[Jim Poor]

For me it is a question of a clean kill. If the retrieved bird is not dead one must immediately ring its neck. I trained my 2 English Setters for hunt test compition and found that in my area it was a fair and ethical sport. Our planted game birds were hardy and the dogs had to work for their targets. There are many more aspects to the sport besides the moment of killing a bird. For me the bonding with my dogs was paramont and during the hours and days and months of training we killed very few birds. Our training birds were barn pigeons and we would use one dead pigeon over and over again, allowing the live pigeons to fly back to their roost. Digital cameras were not yet invented when I did this. Today I no longer train setters, although I am still a huge sucker for the English Setters.

I did the English Setter Nationals this year. Agility and Hunt Test. i almost got shot at the hunt test. It was a totally different game than the retriever hunt test.

This time around. there was no neck wringing, instead someone sat and put their foot on the bird until it expired.

Here's a frame right before I hit the dirt when I noticed that we had our barrels pointed right at each other:

http://www.pbase.com/jimpoor/image/129533723/original.jpg

[Paul Guris]

I don't hunt but I fish, and I have been taking photos of both species we release (Sailfish, Marlin) and those we keep to eat (Mahi, Tuna, Striped Bass, etc.). These photos are great memories. I also subscribe to a fishing magazine and find good shots to be very exciting.

I think the "take" type of fishing is fairly analogous to hunting. The exception for me are "canned" hunts where the birds are handicapped. I think stocking quail for a hunt is fine, but clipping their primaries first to make sure the hunters can shoot more of them is unacceptable to me.

[Dave Leroy]

I used to hunt. I stopped when I moved from small town Alberta to big city BC.

Where I live now hunting is considered quite important in the control of the Snow Goose population that winters over in our area. If left unchecked the concern is they would eat themselves out of cattail marshes causing erosion and other issues.

I have no problem at all with hunters. Those I do have an issue with are the shooters. I often see people out "hunting" but shooting at birds much too high, flying out over water, leaving shell casings behind, and just not practicing good skills as a hunter.

Dave

[David Gancarz]

I don't hunt for the kill - I've no stomach for the latter. Still, birdwatching and bird photography provide what I firmly believe is the same satisfaction hunters feel. ...Being outdoors alone or with a trained dog, stalking, waiting and watching, studying your prey, enduring inclement weather, enjoying the thrill of finally getting close to an elusive animal - these are fine things. There are plenty of Fish and Game folks and other lovers of the outdoors that enjoy hunting. I have no problem with that. I believe them to be some of the best conservationists around. We need all of them we can get.

In my teenage years I came across many legtraps set in the Big Cypress. Once, a threatening, sidearm wielding deer poacher chatted me up so his buddies could get away. Spotlight hunting and so on. These things are not legitimate hunting; these are crimes. For my buddy at work who takes two weeks off each fall to be in a tree stand 2 hours before sunrise - God bless him. He will be first in line to conserve our wild lands.

[Chris Hansen]

I grew up in a hunting family in the front range of Colorado. The meat provided during deer and antelope hunting season was put to use in many family meals. Since moving to California I rarely hunt though I still sometimes buy a hunting license and hunt. Just not as often as i used to. Now I take more joy in being in the outdoors than in the actual hunt. Fishing is the same way. On my last fishing trip a few days back I only picked up my fishing rod once and that was to move it out of the way so I could take pictures.
I honor good hunters and fisherman. With emphasis on the good. The vast majority of them are conservationist and environmentalists that care for the animals and fish that they pursue. Take a close look at all the hunting and fishing groups that provide funding for habitat. National Wild Turkey Federation,Ducks unlimited, Rocky mountain Elk Foundation, California Waterfowl Association... the list goes on and on and many of these groups provide hands on direct labor for improving habitat for wildlife and fish.
So I both photograph and hunt. Hunting just has taken more of a backseat to the photography.

[Nancy Bell]

Jim, Your recent experience sounds awful. Where were the Field Marshalls for this test? They should be supervising each run. If I was still active with English Setters I would pursue the issues you have raised. I once organized and ran a National English Setter Hunt Test in northern Colorado. All the gunners in all the field tests I attended have been super safety conscious. Your experience gives a bad name to the event. This is a terrible shame. However I believe what every one has said, that hunters can have an ethical and legitimate sport and many hunters are very supportive of the environment.

[Jason Kinsey]

I have hunted and fished all of my life, and hope to continue throughout my life. I also LOVE photographing working retrievers at hunt tests or otherwise, and try to spend a weekend or two a year shooting at a buddy of mine's duck camp in Arkansas. My retriever is sitting beside me as I type my reply.

As a wildlife biologist, I understand that sustainable harvest is part of a healthy wildlife conservation plan. Many times conservation and preservation are used interchangeably and they are not one in the same. I also agree that if you get them within camera range you have beaten them at their own game as well.

[Jim Poor]

Jim, Your recent experience sounds awful. Where were the Field Marshalls for this test? They should be supervising each run. If I was still active with English Setters I would pursue the issues you have raised. I once organized and ran a National English Setter Hunt Test in northern Colorado. All the gunners in all the field tests I attended have been super safety conscious. Your experience gives a bad name to the event. This is a terrible shame. However I believe what every one has said, that hunters can have an ethical and legitimate sport and many hunters are very supportive of the environment.

Actually, I give GREAT credit to the gunner for having the presence of mind to notice me and pull up! The other gunner was at a much better angle.

[Cal Walters]

I used to hunt extensively growing up in Louisiana and Texas. Ant traveled to Mexico to hunt annually. A shotgun was a lot cheaper birthday present for a 12 year old than a camera and harder to break. We were trained by our dads and their stories and discipline if we screwed around to respect the power and the game we were hunting. It made you grow up pretty fast to hold a shotgun in your hands and see what could happen if mis-treated or carelessly handled. I've also been shot on a hunt - that hunter who was pointing at you, who had the sense to pull up - did not happen for me. Fortunately fine shot and shooting glasses prevented any real damage, but reinforced the safety for everyone. The comments on clean kills, and inexperienced hunters ring true for me.

What rings even more true is that learning to bird and photograph them has given me the same adrenaline rush and puts me in the outdoors where I need to be. The thrill of a lifer far surpasses the next dove dropped on the ground. Getting a clean crisp image is harder than hitting them with #9 shot. Seeing the scoop of the wing on a rising teal and stoping to observe the speed of flight made me even more appreciate the species, especially when they may end up on my table.

[Morkel Erasmus]

I grew up going on hunting trips with my dad, and have shot a buck or guinea-fowl or 2 in my life...but I have found no real desire to do so since picking up the camera and capturing forever images of the animals/birds as living. I was brought up on a very strict "eat what you shoot" hunting ethic and I don't have a problem with that. (I still eat meat after all, and it has to come from somewhere where someone had the balls to kill an animal, be it wild or tame).

I have a BIG problem with sport hunting as it plays out in Africa these days (and not wanting to "stereotype") with uber-rich "hunters" who come to Africa and kill all 5 of the Big 5, many of them through "canned" hunting, and go back and claim they were on safari and stalked and killed wild lion and leopard. My country is tarnished with people who breed lions for exactly this sport, and once you've seen a majestic male lion in the wild, you get sick to your core when you see one of these caged lions who you know will end up approaching a hunter (being used to humans) freely, and shot on sight to end up in some living room as a carpet.

But in terms of being both a photographer and hunter - I say each to his own. Maybe one day I will kill a kudu or impala again for the pot...I don't feel like it now and don't think I will again soon. :D

[Andrew McLachlan]

Well said Morkel.

I often shoot at a wetland where waterfowl are hunted when in season. The hunters are supposed to shoot well out in the marsh and not near the paths that cut through the marsh. I have on occasion had to take cover under a viewing platform due to buckshot "raining" down. I consider the hunters at this particular wetland to be mostly inconsiderate with no regard for the rules, but then again due to budget cut-backs authorities are not present to enforce the rules. I no longer shoot here during the waterfowl hunt. On a rather funny note, once when I was there, two hunters standing side-by-side opened fire with their shotguns on a small flock of Canada Geese and they got one. They proceeded to curse and swear at each other, arguing over who shot down the bird. Two guys, standing beside one another, with shotguns blasting away, and they're actually going to argue over whose buckshot killed the bird. I wonder if they heard my laughter.

[steve oakes]

Here in Britain we have a different view to hunting in the main to that of many in the US. In my opinion, hunting here is mainly a past-time of the rich or upper class (although hunting with dogs has for now been made illegal due to public lobbying of the government). Many years ago in Britain, hunting was not permitted by ordinary folk. All game belonged to the king and anyone found killing a deer would find themselves hanged with no questions asked.

I have to say that I don't personally understand the need to kill, unless it is to eat. I certainly don't understand killing for fun but hey, I'm not going to force that opinion on anyone else. Hunting can be disasterous if not properly controlled. Here in Britain we used to have wild pigs, wolves and bears. These have been extinct now for about 200-300 years.

Paradoxically, many of the worlds best nature reserves started out as hunting reserves and only exist today because of hunting. I guess we should be grateful for that.