Is this site dying out or are my stats wrong? [Archive] - BirdPhotographers.net

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-21-2010, 07:40 AM

In conversation with many members recently, there appears to be a slow deterioration in the usage of this once wonderful site.

Those much more knowledgeable than myself may want to comment on this but I certainly find this a much less vibrant site than it once was, with much less participation in the forums than before.

All I want is some direction as to where this site is going as I feel now part of a failing entity.

Many of the comments that friends and members have made to me are the commercial direction that the site appears to be going.

The many questions asked, seem to be directed to an advertising mode and the once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art appears to have been sacrificed to expensive and unaffordable to most, guided tours that though wonderful, are out of the range of the majority of members.

Please let us know the true direction of BPN so that many of us can make an informed decision as whether or not to renew our membership when due.

denise ippolito

09-21-2010, 08:02 AM

Christopher, I am no expert but it seems to me that you only get out what you put in. This site is filled with lots of great information. All free for the taking. Every post is a learning opportunity. I can only speak for my forum OOTB when I say it is thriving. We have more member participation than ever. :)

Roger Clark

09-21-2010, 09:00 AM

Chris,

I see ebb and flow on other sites too. There seems to be a lull in posts on weekends, which I think is a good sign: people are getting out and doing things. Because most members are northern hemisphere, people tend to be out more in the summer (with some exceptions like hot regions) and less online. Membership growth is still going up rapidly. It wasn't that long ago that we had 5,000 members; now it is over 9400. Most activity seems to be in posting images to the critique forums. So it looks like growth is good, and probably a summer lull in forums like gear and workflow. It may also be that the membership has gotten so many questions answered that they don't need to ask more questions, but get out and take pictures. Now if someone would answer my question on stacked 2x TCs.....:o

Roger

Arthur Morris

09-21-2010, 10:47 AM

Hi Chris,

re:

In conversation with many members recently, there appears to be a slow deterioration in the usage of this once wonderful site.

I am confused: how does deterioration appear in a conversation?

Those much more knowledgeable than myself may want to comment on this but I certainly find this a much less vibrant site than it once was, with much less participation in the forums than before.

What forums are you talking about??? As Denise mentioned, in part, you get out what you put in. I have not seen an image of yours for months (although you appear to be fairly active on some of the discussion forums).

All I want is some direction as to where this site is going as I feel now part of a failing entity.

On what stats are you basing your comments on? Visits are up dramatically from the same time period last year. On a personal note, I have been more active than ever before in August and September having raised my posts per day average from a low of 14.02 when I got home from Galapagos to about 14.89 as I type. And I can tell you, it is not easy to raise your batting average two years in to the season.

Many of the comments that friends and members have made to me are the commercial direction that the site appears to be going.

Please do be specific as far as the commercial direction that you refer to.

The many questions asked, seem to be directed to an advertising mode

Chris, what in the world are you talking about?

and the once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art

Chris, please post a link here to anything that smacks of the above.

appears to have been sacrificed to expensive and unaffordable to most, guided tours that though wonderful, are out of the range of the majority of members.

As far as I know, the only place that tours are mentioned is in the Workshops Forum. Where are you seeing mention of tours???

Please let us know the true direction of BPN so that many of us can make an informed decision as whether or not to renew our membership when due.

We just finished upgrading the site at a cost of many thousands of dollars. Every forum is filled with great images, great information, and tons of basically free tips. Our goal remains the same: to be the very best educational nature web site on the planet. In Avian more than elsewhere, I have seen that many folks post images and rarely comment on images posted by other folks leaving the great bulk of work to the Mods. We are currently looking at a variety of ways to encourage folks to comment on the images of others. Do you have any ideas?

In general I have no idea what you are talking about. Your thread seems biased and negative at best and as I said above, I see no mention of your so-called stats.

What ever happened to a positive mental attitude, participation, and leading by example?

I have taken the time to address your concerns and hope that you take the time to answer my questions above.

Mike Tracy

09-21-2010, 10:58 AM

I doub't the site is dying out and sites are cyclical like Roger pointed out. Several of the top posters have left so there is a void to be filled. Of the top 20 posters 8 no longer participate and 10 are either mods or have a vested interest. Site stats seem to indicate steady traffic so it's just that people are looking more than participating. With time, new and existing members will probably fill the void left by the members who vacated.

My personal sentiments are that this forum provides a wonderful learning environment and agree with Denise in regards to you get out what you put in. However, I do feel that a sense of this forum being a "fun" place to participate is not there and my discussions with both members past and present as well as non members support that. It's the responsibility of the core group to foster an atmosphere to retain members, enlist respected photographers and balance making BPN a educational resource along with a place one feels at ease with voicing his opinion.

I happen to like it here for the most part and participate when time permits. I also was always the first one in class to raise their hand so thats why I took the initiative to reply to your query from a "regular" members perspective.

Edit: Mr. Morris beat me in his reply so I have not yet read it.

Eric Virkler

09-21-2010, 11:06 AM

Chris, I believe that there are many of us in the background learning from the discussions, critiques, posts, etc. of those more experienced and more knowledgeable. Since many may not be posting or critiquing it may seem that they are not participating in this great forum. The information gained and knowledge increased by each one is not measureable by post numbers.

Eric

Faces of Nature Photography
www.ericjvirkler.com (http://www.ericjvirkler.com)

Chris Ober

09-21-2010, 11:12 AM

The server logs show differently....

In conversation with many members recently, there appears to be a slow deterioration in the usage of this once wonderful site.

Arthur Morris

09-21-2010, 11:14 AM

Now if someone would answer my question on stacked 2x TCs.....:o Roger

Roger, where can I find your question?

Arthur Morris

09-21-2010, 11:27 AM

Chris, Here are a smattering of very recent comments:

"Nature photography pretty much demands perfection; that is why folks need to do the work, put in the effort, and practice." I doubt if things have always been like this but because of you and your efforts, the bar has been raised and you have shown the rest of us what nature photography can be at its best. I feel like I have done 2 things right out of 20 so far; I have found the bird and I have taken a photo from it. Now I'm here to learn the rest of the missing 18 points. :D
Thanks Arthur, Mikko

and

Artie, as someone once said in another context, "Now that's information I can use." Thanks so much . . . Wendell

and

Thanks for the question Artie! Yes, I would have preferred the wings to be fully extended. Ideally, a full extension up or down would have made this a much stronger image. But seeing that I do not have that, it is something to shoot for in the future. Gary.

One would not expect comments like that on a "dying site." And I am sure that the other mods could point you to dozens of similar comments from the past week alone.

And here's one directed at Dan:

Hi Dan, After reading your critique I went back to my NEF file and found as you had observed, a definite file degradation on the pict submitted. I then tried to replicate my work flow to see what happened. As you suspected, I had carelessly used a Noise remover by brush on the file. As for the magenta cast - I will have to work on that. I use each and every critique given me on my pictures as a class in learning. Thank you - Daniel Cadieux for your time, patient and observing eye. Rob

Nicki Gwynn Jones

09-21-2010, 11:49 AM

What bothers me is how few people who post in Avian seem to leave a comment, and Artie, I know that you mentioned this point in an earlier pane. I know that a lot of us dip in from time to time - I for one have had no time to post recently, but to post an image and not have the courtesty to leave five or six comments for other people is downright rude. We are all responsible for making this site a fun place to be.
Nicki

Arthur Morris

09-21-2010, 12:10 PM

Hey Nicki, We are working on it. Hope to see you posting soon.

Joel Eade

09-21-2010, 12:12 PM

Chris,

As a relatively new member I can't say that I see the site "moving" toward an advertising or commercial mode.

Of course there is an entrepreneural aspect where those on a professional level organize and lead workshops for a fee. But what's wrong with that? It's an everyday way of life to pay for skills and knowledge that you don't possess yourself,( there are too many examples of that to mention.) If you are not interested in workshops, don't look at that forum. There are many affordable ways to enjoy nature photography....99% of my images come from my back yard song bird setup that cost less than $100 until just recently I had to move my daughter to florida and I arranged a one day outing with James Shadle that was very affordable. My work and other obligations prevent me from participating in those big time events but I'm not mad about it, I just do what I can and derive enjoyment from what the blessings I have.

I certainly agree that it is easier to post images than to critique others, for myself I just don't feel very qualified other than to just say something that may not really help the poster learn or improve. Maybe a guide or trainig aid on how to properly critique may be useful. Despite this I don't think there is a slow down in posts.

I think for the small membership fee you have available at least 5 or 6 forums you can post one image daily and receive critique from recognized experts....if you do the math I bet you could submit as many a 2000 images in a year for review....that's pretty good for $20 IMHO!

Don't worry, be happy!!!

Joel

Arthur Morris

09-21-2010, 12:30 PM

Chris, As a relatively new member I can't say that I see the site "moving" toward an advertising or commercial mode. Of course there is an entrepreneural aspect where those on a professional level organize and lead workshops for a fee. But what's wrong with that? It's an everyday way of life to pay for skills and knowledge that you don't possess yourself,( there are too many examples of that to mention.) If you are not interested in workshops, don't look at that forum. There are many affordable ways to enjoy nature photography....99% of my images come from my back yard song bird setup that cost less than $100 until just recently I had to move my daughter to florida and I arranged a one day outing with James Shadle that was very affordable. My work and other obligations prevent me from participating in those big time events but I'm not mad about it, I just do what I can and derive enjoyment from what the blessings I have. I certainly agree that it is easier to post images than to critique others, for myself I just don't feel very qualified other than to just say something that may not really help the poster learn or improve. Maybe a guide or trainig aid on how to properly critique may be useful. Despite this I don't think there is a slow down in posts. I think for the small membership fee you have available at least 5 or 6 forums you can post one image daily and receive critique from recognized experts....if you do the math I bet you could submit as many a 2000 images in a year for review....that's pretty good for $20 IMHO! Don't worry, be happy!!! Joel

Well said Joel, and thanks. As for the critiquing all that is asked is for folks to look and an image, state what they like and what they don't like, and tell us why. It is actually quite simple; anyone can do it. :)

Nicki Gwynn Jones

09-21-2010, 12:47 PM

Artie, I shall try to post soon :)
Joel, I agree with Artie that critiquing does not need to be complicated. If you have enjoyed an image then I think that the photographer would always appreciate knowing this. Your input is always valuable and valid :cool:

Michael Bertelsen

09-21-2010, 05:21 PM

I'll be posting a bunch as soon as I'm done the moose trips and fishing trips.
I know there is quite a few people like me who are to tired after a long day in the feild or at work to carry on a conversation but for me that is what the winter is for and I look forward to these discussions.

Keep them coming folks,

Michael Bertelsen

Roger Clark

09-21-2010, 06:34 PM

Roger, where can I find your question?

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?72085-Canon-AF-and-stacked-2x-TCs-with-1D-bodies

Roger

Arthur Morris

09-21-2010, 06:44 PM

Thanks Roger, Amazingly sharp moon image. Thanks for the link. I posted a question or two there.

James Shadle

09-21-2010, 09:37 PM

Chris,
I'd like to take this point by point.
You said: "In conversation with many members recently, there appears to be a slow deterioration in the usage of this once wonderful site.
Those much more knowledgeable than myself may want to comment on this but I certainly find this a much less vibrant site than it once was, with much less participation in the forums than before."

As Chris mentioned (as only Chris can) so eloquently the server log shows no recent decrease in visits or hits. We are in fact up from the same time last year.

Roger's point that most nature photography forums (with a majority of it's users in the northern hemisphere) dip a little in the summer is valid. Mike's point that a few "top posters" are no longer participating is also valid.
In both cases the impression could be that volume is down, however the server log and analytics shows otherwise.

You said: "All I want is some direction as to where this site is going as I feel now part of a failing entity."
Failure is not an option. We did not spend the time and money we did upgrading our server and forum software to fail.

You said: "Many of the comments that friends and members have made to me are the commercial direction that the site appears to be going. "
Help me understand this - we have not added any advertisers in over a year and a half.

You said: "The many questions asked, seem to be directed to an advertising mode and the once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art appears to have been sacrificed to expensive and unaffordable to most, guided tours that though wonderful, are out of the range of the majority of members."

I'm not following you on this one either, so please elaborate. We allow members to post workshop notifications in the appropriate forum at no cost to them.

You said: "Please let us know the true direction of BPN so that many of us can make an informed decision as whether or not to renew our membership when due."

BPN's true direction has not changed, as matter of fact we are more on target than ever. Our goal and direction is to be the best internet forum community to learn and teach nature photography.
We are not a back slapping, great shot, good ol' boy forum, rather we are an educational forum where you can get honest critiques from some of the planet's best nature photographers.

I am a big believer in "community" and frankly this is an area that I do believe we can improve.

Helping one another, getting to know one another, fun, sharing, laughing, getting irritated, learning and teaching are just a few qualities of our forum community.

As mentioned, "you only get out what you put in". I'll go a step further and say "everyone only gets out what you put in". Imagine if everyone had that attitude!

We will continue to work hard to make BPN a fun place to learn and teach nature photography.

Norm Dulak

09-22-2010, 06:15 AM

Christopher:

I tend to agree that the problems at BPN have been steadily growing. As a further example, I posted an image of a Galapagos land iguana recently that was referred to by one commentator as having a "grunge look." Constructive criticism that can lead to improvement is always welcome, but such derogatory comments serve no one.

Norm

Paul Randall

09-22-2010, 06:42 AM

I don't see any degradation of the site:confused: Still a great place for info and inspiration.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 06:58 AM

Christopher: I tend to agree that the problems at BPN have been steadily growing. As a further example, I posted an image of a Galapagos land iguana recently that was referred to by one commentator as having a "grunge look." Constructive criticism that can lead to improvement is always welcome, but such derogatory comments serve no one. Norm

Norm, You did not understand my use of the term and chose to see it as derogatory. That was not at all my intention. The "grunge" look, very much in style at the moment refers to using HDR followed by a variety of filters to give an image a sort of ancient somewhat grungy look. Click here (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?72188-Blue-Galapagos) to see both an example of the style and use of the word "grunge."

I am confused when you say "a further example" as there have not been any examples given, just opinions and innuendos. And after posting a comment that obviously would get folks attention, Chris has disappeared at least for now.

I will always give my honest opinion as gently as possible. Some folks do not like that and would prefer to hear "Big Congrats" even when an image (such as your iguana) has serious problems. Perhaps now that you better understand the use of the word "grunge" you might consider posting the original image as requested so that I and others might attempt to help you.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 07:23 AM

Norm, seeing that you opted to voice your opinion in the iguana thread, please do provide us links to you the "other manifestations" that you mention. Thanks.

Norm Dulak

09-22-2010, 08:09 AM

Norm, seeing that you opted to voice your opinion in the iguana thread, please do provide us links to you the "other manifestations" that you mention. Thanks.

Arthur:

Thanks for belatedly explaining what the term "grunge" means to you.:) Had you explained that for those of us who regard the term to be derogatory when applied to what we do, there would have been no problem. But not everyone viewing BPN is a professional photographer cognizant of all of the current terms of art in photography.

If you want a link to another example of current problems with BPN, I'll provide one below. But by way of background, I posted an image of a Hibiscus that was generally well regarded and which generated much discussion over an issue of which most viewers to the thread were unaware. One BPN member noted that reds in the image were over saturated.

To make a long story short, the problem occurred during conversion to JPEG for posting and was not present in my earlier files. At one point in the discussion, when no one had offered a good suggestion for overcoming this problem, I suggested that perhaps unexpected over saturation of reds and yellows due to conversion for posting might be disregarded for critiques on BPN.

In reply, a moderator of the macro/floral forum issued a scathing rebuttal to my suggestion, without offering the slightest suggestion as to how the red blowout during conversion problem could be corrected. Later, this same moderator stated in the thread that he had run his rebuttal past other moderators and was told by them that it was too harsh. But he posted it anyway. He later apologized, but a bit inappropriately and too late, especially since the apology was directed in part to comments I made only to him in a PM and were not known to the others viewing the thread!:(

The link to this thread is: http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?70996-Hibiscus.

I could post others, but I see no point in doing so. The two I've posted adequately support my point.

Norm

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 08:42 AM

#1: Here's what I wrote in part at your iguana image, "I have no explanation for the mega BKGR noise and the quasi-HDR/grunge look." Rather than ask what I meant you chose to take the remark as derogatory. Your choice.

#2: In Pane #1 of the hibiscus image, the image contains clipped REDs. Lot of them. In Pane #3 there rather than taking the JPEG into PS to see if the REDs were indeed clipped, you sprang to your own defense in part lecturing the poster on your superior techniques.:

"Thanks for your comments. I'm a bit confused by your suggestion, however, that there is considerable clipping in the reds. I don't see how there could be, unless something weird happened during conversion from the PS file to the web image. That's because whenever I photograph anything with strong reds or yellows, I immediately review the captured image and evaluate the histograms. The LCD on my D300 camera is set to not only display the captured image, but four separate histograms also, for the red, green and blue channels plus overall luminance. In an earlier frame there was in fact some clipping of the reds, and that is why I applied a strong -2 compensation to my camera's matrix metering to get the present, correctly exposed frame.

As it turned out, Jerry was right as you later admitted.

As to the "scathing rebuttal," again, scathing was your interpretation. I wish Roman had asked me as I did not feel that his reply was at all harsh. Like me, Roman speaks his mind (heck, we do not always agree either). Blunt yes, but harsh, not at all for me. Based on #1 and #2 above Norm, it seems that you opt to see the negative side of things and that you do not like any criticism at all of your images.

You and I have had our differences in the past as we both have strong opinions and are willing to back them up but for the most part we have kept things civil. With the hibiscus thread, the end result was an improved image and greater understanding by all. Instead of seeing it that way you again to choose to champion the negative side of things by citing the thread as an example of "problems at BPN." I really don't get it.

Norm Dulak

09-22-2010, 08:59 AM

#1: Here's what I wrote in part at your iguana image, "I have no explanation for the mega BKGR noise and the quasi-HDR/grunge look." Rather than ask what I meant you chose to take the remark as derogatory. Your choice.

#2: In Pane #1 of the hibiscus image, the image contains clipped REDs. Lot of them. In Pane #3 there rather than taking the JPEG into PS to see if the REDs were indeed clipped, you sprang to your own defense in part lecturing the poster on your superior techniques.:

"Thanks for your comments. I'm a bit confused by your suggestion, however, that there is considerable clipping in the reds. I don't see how there could be, unless something weird happened during conversion from the PS file to the web image. That's because whenever I photograph anything with strong reds or yellows, I immediately review the captured image and evaluate the histograms. The LCD on my D300 camera is set to not only display the captured image, but four separate histograms also, for the red, green and blue channels plus overall luminance. In an earlier frame there was in fact some clipping of the reds, and that is why I applied a strong -2 compensation to my camera's matrix metering to get the present, correctly exposed frame.

As it turned out, Jerry was right as you later admitted.

As to the "scathing rebuttal," again, scathing was your interpretation. I wish Roman had asked me as I did not feel that his reply was at all harsh. Like me, Roman speaks his mind (heck, we do not always agree either). Blunt yes, but harsh, not at all for me. Based on #1 and #2 above Norm, it seems that you opt to see the negative side of things and that you do not like any criticism at all of your images.

You and I have had our differences in the past as we both have strong opinions and are willing to back them up but for the most part we have kept things civil. With the hibiscus thread, the end result was an improved image and greater understanding by all. Instead of seeing it that way you again to choose to champion the negative side of things by citing the thread as an example of "problems at BPN." I really don't get it.

Arthur:

Individuals who post images for critique on BPN do so because they want to learn how to do things better. Whether responses from moderators are scathing or not depends upon one's point of view. But mere criticisms without solutions are essentially useless. So too is endless argumentation by moderators, instead of meaningful guidance!

You don't see this kind of thing happening on other nature photography sites, including the ones to which some of your best moderators have in disgust migrated!

Your continuing argumentation enables me to rest my case. I will not respond to any more of it.

Norm

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 09:11 AM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Norm. I am curious as to why you are still here if BPN is so bad. I am sure that your images would garner dozens of "Big Congrats" on those other sites. What you see as "endless argumentation" I see as folks trying to help folks with thin skin who choose to defend their positions rather than take criticism with an open mind.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 09:28 AM

And one last comment on the hibiscus thread, what you see as an example of "problems at BPN" James Shadle and I see as an example of our greatet strength. And so do lots of others. Perhaps its time for you to take a look in the mirror rather than point the finger of bitterness at BPN.

Norm Dulak

09-22-2010, 09:37 AM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Norm. I am curious as to why you are still here if BPN is bad. I am sure that your images would garner dozens of "Big Congrats" on those other sites.

Arthur:

Although I said I would not respond further to your comments, I think you are right here. Other sites might receive my posting more favorably than the technically obsessed BPN. But that's because they know enough, unlike BPN, not to obsess over technicalities.

Your moderator ranted about a technical histogram, while others reviewed my image for what it visually meant to them. Still others pointed out that adjusting an image to avoid blowout of any particular color in a histogram could actually damage the overall quality of the image! Perhaps you missed that point in your apparently hasty reading of the thread!

But an interesting posting in my Hibiscus thread was made by Anita Bower, who wrote:

"I like the original post, Don Lacy's post and your repost, though, I must say, I can't tell much difference between them. I like the painterly look, the details, the swirls, the lines, the colors. I think you made the right decision to keep the greens toned down a bit, thus highlighting the flowers. Beautiful flower and beautiful capture".

Anita could see no difference between my original posting and subsequent posting in which adjustments were made to avoid the technical histogram issues.

It sometimes helps to read everything, not just the things that serve your interests! Yet another problem IMO with the new BPN.

As for your last comment, I try to work around unreasonable moderators, but increasingly that is becoming impossible.

Norm

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 09:43 AM

I thought that the originally posted image was lovely too.And I am glad that Anita liked it. But there were REDs without detail. You continue to rant about moderator argumentation yet you find yourself doing the same thing. Here's a great suggestion: post your iguana image on one of "the other" sites and see what types of comments it gets. Whatever is said, that image is nowhere near your usual standards. You are a very good photographer but the iguana image is of poor quality at best.

James Shadle

09-22-2010, 10:19 AM

Let's stay on topic.
If we want talk about specific images, let's do that in the thread they were originally posted.

I see passion in this discussion. Any relationship counselor will tell you that when there is apathy in a relationship, it's done. When there is passion and debate there is hope:).

Norm Dulak

09-22-2010, 10:43 AM

Let's stay on topic.
If we want talk about specific images, let's do that in the thread they were originally posted.

I see passion in this discussion. Any relationship counselor will tell you that when there is apathy in a relationship, it's done. When there is passion and debate there is hope:).

Here, here!:cheers:

Grant Eldridge

09-22-2010, 11:20 AM

For the most part if someone is posting an image on BPN they believe they have something special that they are proud of. Criticism, no matter how constructive, can hit a nerve with a lot of people and they don't take it very well. As Arthur said there are plenty of "Great Shot" forums around but that does not teach you anything, just makes you feel good. If you are posting here you need to understand that its not personal its about learning and improving. With the media of an internet forum intent and meaning can sometimes be lost in translation, best rule here is to assume the best intent. Nobody is out to make you look bad and be a jerk. Keep in mind also that some critiscim is subjective and you don't have to agree with it, we all hang different art on our walls. Its what makes the world go round.

Having said that its important to be concious of the sensitivity some people have and be sure you are clear in your critique. That helps everyone in the long run. With some key members leaving recently there is indeed a big void, I hope we can fill it. Best way for that to happen is for some of us lurkers to start posting comments (myself included). If that happens then not only will we fill the gaps, I'm sure we will exceed expectations.

As for the commercial aspect...I just don't see it. Lots of discussion around various new products but nobody trying to push them.

Just my opinion.

Grant

Dan Brown

09-22-2010, 11:27 AM

Interesting discussion! I will chime here. The comment that you "only get out what you put in" is probably true but I am little puzzled here? I recently posted a thread http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?71943-Acorn-in-flight which got 125 views and only 3 comments, two of which were by moderators. The comments were great but why only 3? For me, all comments are welcome and I always learn from them. If my woodpecker image was the best woodpecker image ever posted here (and it wasn't!) I would still like to have comments. Are we afraid to give a slap on the back and won't comment if we can't suggest improvements? BTW, currently I post about 6 comments to 1 image.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 12:05 PM

For the most part if someone is posting an image on BPN they believe they have something special that they are proud of.... Just my opinion. Grant

Hey Grant. Thanks for sharing your thoughts here. Your comments are right-on. We look forward to seeing more comments from you and hopefully some images.

Myer Bornstein

09-22-2010, 12:14 PM

I love to get great comments but the comments when something is wrong makes me look at the image and see what I could havge done better. If you need help in fixing something just ask and the help will be there.
Personally I like the site and do miss the Forns but life moves on and I only see great and better things for the site

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 12:14 PM

Interesting discussion! I will chime here. The comment that you "only get out what you put in" is probably true but I am little puzzled here? I recently posted a thread http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?71943-Acorn-in-flight which got 125 views and only 3 comments, two of which were by moderators. The comments were great but why only 3? For me, all comments are welcome and I always learn from them. If my woodpecker image was the best woodpecker image ever posted here (and it wasn't!) I would still like to have comments. Are we afraid to give a slap on the back and won't comment if we can't suggest improvements? BTW, currently I post about 6 comments to 1 image.

While one might feel that a single comment that helps you improve an image is enough, I do agree with you 100%. We are currently working on the problem as I indicated somewhere above in this thread. (BTW, my current comment to post ratio is about 20 :1. I need to post more :0) Your 6 : 1 ratiio is commended and appreciated. If everyone did that we would need to move to an even larger server :)

We are trying to do something similar to what you see in the image above with the text appearing in the Post New Thread dialogue box. If you or anyone else has any suggestions on how to get folks who post images to comment on the work of others please do share.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 12:18 PM

Of the top 20 posters 8 no longer participate and 10 are either mods or have a vested interest.

Hi Mike, With regards to the above were you able to pull up those stats or are they your gut feeling. If the former I would love to learn how to see the stats.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 12:22 PM

I love to get great comments but the comments when something is wrong makes me look at the image and see what I could havge done better. If you need help in fixing something just ask and the help will be there. Personally I like the site and do miss the Forns but life moves on and I only see great and better things for the site

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Myer. I will admit that I miss Axel's eagle eye and I do miss jousting with Arash.

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 12:32 PM

My opinion, and it's not intended as a critique, is that the fact that there is a membership fee is required to access some of the features on the site is a deterrent to many. Certainly, it is for me; I almost didn't even sign up at all because of it. At present, I am not a subscriber and would contribute a lot more in other forums if not for the limitations on non-subscribers. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of forums like this are free, and most people (myself included) are not included to pay for it. That's not to say I don't see value in the content here; I certainly do. But I can fine similar (if maybe slightly lower signal to noise ratio) content elsewhere for free also.

Ian Cassell

09-22-2010, 12:37 PM

Speaking for myself, I'm finding this site as useful as ever. I look constantly (although I may sometimes be a little hesitant to comment on those whose skills far exceed my own).

If I had one comment to make it is that ETL is starting to swerve from it's (perceived by me, anyway) purpose. I'm seeing more and more images there from the more experienced among us and, re-reading the purpose of that forum, it was originally supposed to be for those who are relatively new to the critique world. It can be quite intimidating for me to put my images up next to one of those of our guru's.

Mike Tracy

09-22-2010, 01:20 PM

Hi Mike, With regards to the above were you able to pull up those stats or are they your gut feeling. If the former I would love to learn how to see the stats.

On iPhone pardon the brevity

Go to members search > tick posts > it will display posts in descending order. I knew who definetly wasn't around any longer and looked at the others recent activity and last post made
Site stats are available for any site for free and if you have a subscription more detailed analysis is provided.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 01:31 PM

TAT Mike. Right now I am struggling with finding members search... Any suggestions?

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 01:32 PM

Never mind. I found it. Thanks a ton.

Dave Mills

09-22-2010, 01:51 PM

Hi Ian, When I was moderating ETL I was also wondering why some of the more experienced or accomplished photographers were posting there. I think the area was designed for less experienced folks to get help with their images.
Not sure if these people just wanted to be stroked and stand out from the rest since the avian section is where they belong.

Dave Mills

09-22-2010, 02:01 PM

Chris, I find it hard to believe that you feel the small fee attached to being a member is out of line.
The fee for the site is equal to the price of 3 value meals at McDonalds
You can post an image a day in any of the areas for 1 year and get personal critiques...honest critiques that will help you and not just make you feel good
You get valuable information on your images and others that would take you along time to amass from reading or trial and error
If you PM'd any of the mods for add'l info or questions you would have an answer.
You get info on where to go, what to do when you get there and the best times.
I could go on and on...so to complain about the site not being free when thousands of dollars are spent to run it ...is really a bit much.
By the way...the mods do not get paid for their work....

Dan Brown

09-22-2010, 02:11 PM

I have posted to ETL with images that I thought needed help and also when I wanted to post more than one avian image in a day which was probably not right and I don't do that now.
Hi Ian, When I was moderating ETL I was also wondering why some of the more experienced or accomplished photographers were posting there. I think the area was designed for less experienced folks to get help with their images.
Not sure if these people just wanted to be stroked and stand out from the rest since the avian section is where they belong.

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 02:17 PM

You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not complaining, I'm simply saying that I do not see enough value to become a paying member. That's not a complaint, it's just a statement of my opinion, backed up by the fact that I'm not as of yet a paying member. As I noted, there are tens of thousands of forums like this around the web, the overwhelming majority of which are free, and many of them also have moderators who volunteer their time. In that context, charging a fee simply for access to a forum like this, however valuable, will be perceived as unusual by a potential new member. So, while I understand your perspective on the business model, that doesn't make it any less unusual relative to what most internet users would be familiar with.

To give you a specific example, non-members are not permitted to post items for sale. I had a couple of nice lenses that I wanted to sell recently and was told no, I can't post unless I subscribe. So, I sold them on eBay. It was cheaper and probably fetched me a better purchase price.

Again, I'm not being critical of anything; I enjoy the site and am still able to derive some value from it at the non-paying level. I'm simply offering an opinion that the membership fee may be hindering the growth of the site.

(Also, just by way of background, I'm a startup lawyer and I work with online businesses for a living, so I also have some business experience for offering that opinion.)

Dave Mills

09-22-2010, 02:17 PM

Hi Dan, You bring out a good point. I hadn't considered that...

James Shadle

09-22-2010, 02:23 PM

Chris said:
"that the fact that there is a membership fee is required to access some of the features on the site is a deterrent to many."

What features are you unable to access? As a Forum Participant you are allowed to post images using your host, start threads, comment on threads, criticize the site, access the member list etc. I look at it is like this, photographic knowledge is much more important than the gear a photographer uses. $20 US is such a small amount to pay for an education when compared to the several thousand dollars most photographers have invested in equipment.
No one on staff or ownership receives a salary, the dues cover the cost of hosting, software etc. I don't mind working for free, but I prefer not to work for free and pay forum overhead out of pocket.

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of forums like this are free, and most people (myself included) are not included to pay for it. (I'm guessing you meant inclined)

We are a free forum. We just ask that if you want to use our hosting, participate in the IOTY contest or have a personal gallery you help cover the cost of hosting.

Dave Mills

09-22-2010, 02:28 PM

Hi Chris, first off if you sell on Ebay there is a fee attached.(paypal also) Here the sale is between buyer and seller with no fee attached. It can't be cheaper.
Secondly,if you spend thousands of dollars on camera equiptment and don't see value in a small fee(under $30 per year) that gives you an immense amount of personal info and much much more there isn't more to be said.
Remember, all sites aren't created equal....

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 02:33 PM

James-
Hard to say for sure, because (checking right now) I can't find a link that explains what is available to members and what is not. I know of one example that I mentioned before: I can't post an item for sale. That one doesn't make sense to me, since it seems like having a robust marketplace with more items to sell would actually benefit all your members too, especially given the obvious eBay competition. So that's one.

Another I remember is that there is a limitation on how you can post images, but that one was easy to work around using inline linking. I understand that's to save on hosting costs, and that makes sense to me to charge someone if they want to host here as opposed to linking elsewhere.

I seem to recall in the past that I've run into issues limiting the number of private messages I can send or receive and limitations on posting images, but I haven't run into any restrictions lately. Partly that's because I stopped posting images for the most part. I am not a professional, so I tend to do all my photo stuff in batches of time. While I understand the posting restrictions, the fact is that it would easier for people like me to be able to post several at once as opposed to one a day in any forum.

At the end of the day, it's a business decision for Art and the people who run the forum, and I respect their right to run it however they want. As I said a couple of times before, the membership fee actually did deter me from signing up initially. It was only the second time I came back and realized that the fee only prevented certain features that I signed up. So, perhaps the issue is that the membership benefits aren't well-explained. Maybe if you make clearer that the forum is free but membership has extra benefits? Just thinking out loud.

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 02:35 PM

Hi Chris, first off if you sell on Ebay there is a fee attached.(paypal also) Here the sale is between buyer and seller with no fee attached. It can't be cheaper.
Secondly,if you spend thousands of dollars on camera equiptment and don't see value in a small fee(under $30 per year) that gives you an immense amount of personal info and much much more there isn't more to be said.
Remember, all sites aren't created equal....

Dave, you continue to miss my point, so I won't reiterate; you can re-read if you want.

Chris Ober

09-22-2010, 02:35 PM

Ebay selling fee examples:
1) Opening bidding at $1 with a $900 reserve price. IF it sold for $1000 and had a buy it now price set for $1200 the fees ebay will soak you for are $64.25.
2) Opening bidding at $1 with no reserve or buy-it-now, IF it sold for $1000 the fees ebay will soak you for are $50.25.

Yeah, Ebay is a WHOLE lot cheaper :)

http://www.rolbe.com/ebay.htm

James Shadle

09-22-2010, 02:38 PM

Chris,
Ask around, I'm a very calm guy who is "slow to anger" but you are making my neck throb!

You said:
"Again, I'm not being critical of anything; I enjoy the site and am still able to derive some value from it at the non-paying level." italics by James

You just said that what everyone here who tries to help photographers improve their art are worthless.
That statement is a slap in the face to every true participant, free or paid on this site.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 02:46 PM

No one seems to be understanding what I'm saying, and I'm clearly not doing a good job of communicating it, so I'll summarize it this way. First, James, I neither said nor implied anything of the sort regarding anyone being worthless. Frankly, I think that's a grossly unfair way to characterize what I said in any context, but I certainly apologize if that was the way it came across.

This thread started with a concern that this site might be declining in usage. I'm simply offering one possibility to consider about why that might be occurring, and I'm offering a context for that opinion. I'm not saying the site isn't valuable. It is, or I wouldn't be here and I wouldn't be spending this time on this thread. I'm just saying that a fee-based membership model for some of the features of this site is unusual, and that might be part of the issue. That's all I'm saying; nothing more, nothing less, and certainly nothing critical of the choice to use that model.

Randy Stout

09-22-2010, 02:48 PM

You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not complaining, I'm simply saying that I do not see enough value to become a paying member. That's not a complaint, it's just a statement of my opinion, backed up by the fact that I'm not as of yet a paying member. As I noted, there are tens of thousands of forums like this around the web, the overwhelming majority of which are free, and many of them also have moderators who volunteer their time. In that context, charging a fee simply for access to a forum like this, however valuable, will be perceived as unusual by a potential new member. So, while I understand your perspective on the business model, that doesn't make it any less unusual relative to what most internet users would be familiar with.

To give you a specific example, non-members are not permitted to post items for sale. I had a couple of nice lenses that I wanted to sell recently and was told no, I can't post unless I subscribe. So, I sold them on eBay. It was cheaper and probably fetched me a better purchase price.

Again, I'm not being critical of anything; I enjoy the site and am still able to derive some value from it at the non-paying level. I'm simply offering an opinion that the membership fee may be hindering the growth of the site.

(Also, just by way of background, I'm a startup lawyer and I work with online businesses for a living, so I also have some business experience for offering that opinion.)

Chris:

Having spent a significant amount of time and money to learn how to do bird photography, BPN has to be the best investment I ever made to improve my skills. The ROI has been tremendous.
Obviously as a moderator, I am biased, but it only took me about two visits when I started visiting the site to realize that the information and learning possibilities here were well worth the investment.
We all have differences in "perceived value". To me, information/education has a very high value. If I had to skip a couple of meals to pay for the membership, I would consider that a worthwhile investment! Time is limited for me, so I want the highest signal/ratio I can find, and BPN clearly is the leader there. (I like your choice of terms, since I am an amateur radio operator as well)

I do very much value your input!

Cheers

Randy

I am sorry that we haven't shown you enough value to merit the investment. Rest assured, we will keep working to make the site better.

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 02:56 PM

Randy-
Thanks. I do think the way the membership fee is explained or the forum is characterized may be something that could be easily fixed. Is there a link somewhere that explains clearly what is free and what is only available to members? I couldn't find one a few minutes ago, but I could have easily missed it.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 03:05 PM

You misunderstand what I am saying. I am not complaining, I'm simply saying that I do not see enough value to become a paying member. That's not a complaint, it's just a statement of my opinion, backed up by the fact that I'm not as of yet a paying member. As I noted, there are tens of thousands of forums like this around the web, the overwhelming majority of which are free, and many of them also have moderators who volunteer their time. In that context, charging a fee simply for access to a forum like this, however valuable, will be perceived as unusual by a potential new member. So, while I understand your perspective on the business model, that doesn't make it any less unusual relative to what most internet users would be familiar with.

Chris, I invite you to post links to all of the nature photography sites that both offer critiques of your images and host your images for free. To my knowledge, there are none.

An annual membership at one of our competing sites is $40 (lowered from $50 in response to our opening here), and $49. Both of those are places where your images will receive many "Big Congrats" and "Great Image" comments.

So from where I sit you comment is a totally baseless complaint. And your comment about perceived value leaves me scratching my head.

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 03:11 PM

I give up. I can't say enough that I'm not complaining. I'm trying to offer some constructive thoughts on how to address the perceived issue, and I"m failing miserably. No one seems to think the issue I'm raising is a concern, so let's just drop it.

Ben_Sadd

09-22-2010, 03:17 PM

I do not want to directly comment on the side discussions going here, but it is actually the passion being shown here by people that makes this forum so rewarding and such fun. In fact based on this thread alone I now subscribed as a full member! :) Well actually it is because I hope to have much more time to participate and get out and take pictures following a terribly hectic year, but also because of the general passion as well.

Concerning critiques and assumed derogatory comments, perhaps BPN should introduce a sliding scale of sensitivity to critique that displays by member's posts ;). I personally, while not posting a great deal this last year, have tried to keep up with other posts, and in that time have seen nothing that I would deem derogatory, offensive or otherwise. This is a critique forum after-all, so not all posts will be filled with jovial appraisal. Perhaps this is just me, but a little verbal jousting and tongue-in-cheek homour, mixed with excellent images, advice and critiques is a perfect mix.

Chris Ober

09-22-2010, 03:22 PM

There was a detailed list that was inadvertently misplaced sometime during the upgrade. Thanks for pointing that bit out. I'll add it to the list of things that need to be fixed still :)

Randy-
Thanks. I do think the way the membership fee is explained or the forum is characterized may be something that could be easily fixed. Is there a link somewhere that explains clearly what is free and what is only available to members? I couldn't find one a few minutes ago, but I could have easily missed it.

James Shadle

09-22-2010, 03:23 PM

Chris,
I do agree that I need to make the differences between membership and being a participant more obvious.

I will work on consolidating the information that has evolved over the last 2.5 years into one up front / can't miss location.

Chris Ober

09-22-2010, 03:24 PM

I like this guy already....give the man a raise! James, you can teach it alongside the Sliding Shadle Shiny Scale. :)

Concerning critiques and assumed derogatory comments, perhaps BPN should introduce a sliding scale of sensitivity to critique that displays by member's posts ;).

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 04:08 PM

Chris, I invite you to post links to all of the nature photography sites that both offer critiques of your images and host your images for free. To my knowledge, there are none.

Art, since you asked me in your response to my private message to respond to this, I will respond to this. You may well be correct that there are no such sites, but I never said that there were and it isn't germaine to my point. My point was that there are lots and lots of sites like this offering content in the broad sense (i.e. not limited to photography) that are entirely free, and so a fee-based site may be a deterrent for a new member who is used to that in the general sense. The way the thread has evolved, I think the problem is simply a (current) lack of clear info on the benefits of membership vs. being a participant.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 04:16 PM

Chris, You stated clearly that there are lots of sites like this that are free. Period. As I said, there are not. In fact, there are no sites anywhere nearly as good as this for any amount of money.

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 04:23 PM

Chris, You stated clearly that there are lots of sites like this that are free. Period. As I said, there are not. In fact, there are no sites anywhere nearly as good as this for any amount of money.

Yes, I did. And by "this" I was referring to online member/forum content sites in the broad sense, not nature photography sites in the specific sense, as I noted in my previous post. I have no doubt that you are correct about sites like this one in the specific sense, and that's why I'm here and not elsewhere; it's a great site. I was simply making a comment about the business model and how it might impact a prospective member in the absence of better clarification, nothing more and nothing less.

This whole thread is a problem with communicating in writing and not in person. If we were having this conversation over beer, nuance and tone of voice would have eliminated any of these miscommunications and I would have been able to communicate my comment more clearly.

jack williamson

09-22-2010, 04:50 PM

I have never posted anything on this site. I have been watching and learning for a few months now. I will say this, I have seen some excellent photography and learned a great deal from the people who take the time to critique. To the people who take their time to respond and to the people who run this site, thank you. I will begin posting my own images soon and I will become a paying member. Thank you for your time.

Mike Tracy

09-22-2010, 05:01 PM

Concerning critiques and assumed derogatory comments, perhaps BPN should introduce a sliding scale of sensitivity to critique that displays by member's posts ;).

In a effort to try to lighten the mood I present the following:

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 05:02 PM

I will say this, I have seen some excellent photography and learned a great deal from the people who take the time to critique. To the people who take their time to respond and to the people who run this site, thank you.

Here here!

Roman Kurywczak

09-22-2010, 05:40 PM

Hey Jack and Chris......Thanks!!! This is what keeps me going as a mod!
Mike......too funny!!! I do wonder how many people will chose red?;)

Chris Sloan

09-22-2010, 05:43 PM

Roman, if it had purple for "crying at my own inability to communicate effectively", I would choose that one. ;)

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-22-2010, 07:03 PM

I decided to leave this up for a while to allow many others to comment, as it is only through a fair representation of the many members that have replied that will help those that complained to read them, agree or disagree and make up their minds as to what course they wish to take.

That I was asked to make the original post was for two reasons, 1) some folk do feel intimidated (I am not ) on this site and this is not something new and was further exaggerated by the recent retirement of some very respected members which has driven a wedge between present admins and past admins not necessarily my opinion but I am the Devils advocate here. I find is sad that this has errupted out of the blue on a site that I have always felt had a warm fuzzy feel to it unless you (like someone I know) persist in having "Busy backgrounds" and thus incur the wrath of Artie.:)

2) A few of the folk do not have a great grasp of English so the penmanship was to be mine.

Two points on a personal nature, one relating to a comment by a Mr. Mills about the cost of being a member of this site, have a look at my join date and member number and compare it to yours, please don't try to insult me on matters of money and loyalty as you would be wasting your time. I took one look at this site and joined up forthwith and will continue to happily pay my 5 Big Macs worth in the future as I have no intention of leaving the ship even if it sails through a few small gales.

The second relates to a good post by James but I just wish to point out to James that some who made the observations are closer to him than he may think, no names no pack drill James.

I knew when I posted this on their behalf that it would incur some rancour but as an old friend and fellow ex Lawyer Jay Gould can attest we are very hardned to rancor as we made a very good living from it.

Reading what I have read, I hope will go some way to allay the fears of those who worry about this site, some I know intend to leave, (I am not one of them) some have already found other sites and are testing the waters there and some have gone off to search out our recently departed Admins out of great respect and loyalty to some fine folk that most of us owe a great deal and (This IS my opinion,) have left a gaping hole in this site.

My point of view is simple. I have long since ceased to regularly post my Avian images here as they did not fit into the style and quality of the images that grace this site but I get as much if not more pleasure from looking at the wonderful work that is so common to this site and the forums that I do participate in I enjoy and I read just about everything there is to read here.

I share my work with some members privately, partly because I can give them much larger Images to work with and partly because we have a different and private relationship and I have learned much more from our private conversations that would be possible from the small (yes I do understand bandwidth) images posted here, I have this site to thank for their friendship.

I hope but doubt that the replies will satisfy all the concerns expressed to me, possibly we will lose some members possibly time will heal any wounds.

I hope this helps if not, [I]C'est la vie.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 07:36 PM

I have never posted anything on this site. I have been watching and learning for a few months now. I will say this, I have seen some excellent photography and learned a great deal from the people who take the time to critique. To the people who take their time to respond and to the people who run this site, thank you. I will begin posting my own images soon and I will become a paying member. Thank you for your time.

Hey Jack, Thanks for your kind and supportive words. We look forward to seeing your images somewhere down the road.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 07:52 PM

I decided to leave this up for a while to allow many others to comment, as it is only through a fair representation of the many members that have replied that will help those that complained to read them, agree or disagree and make up their minds as to what course they wish to take.

That I was asked to make the original post was for two reasons, 1) some folk do feel intimidated (I am not ) on this site and this is not something new and was further exaggerated by the recent retirement of some very respected members which has driven a wedge between present admins and past admins not necessarily my opinion but I am the Devils advocate here. I find is sad that this has errupted out of the blue on a site that I have always felt had a warm fuzzy feel to it unless you (like someone I know) persist in having "Busy backgrounds" and thus incur the wrath of Artie.:)

2) A few of the folk do not have a great grasp of English so the penmanship was to be mine.

Two points on a personal nature, one relating to a comment by a Mr. Mills about the cost of being a member of this site, have a look at my join date and member number and compare it to yours, please don't try to insult me on matters of money and loyalty as you would be wasting your time. I took one look at this site and joined up forthwith and will continue to happily pay my 5 Big Macs worth in the future as I have no intention of leaving the ship even if it sails through a few small gales.

The second relates to a good post by James but I just wish to point out to James that some who made the observations are closer to him than he may think, no names no pack drill James.

I knew when I posted this on their behalf that it would incur some rancour but as an old friend and fellow ex Lawyer Jay Gould can attest we are very hardned to rancor as we made a very good living from it.

Reading what I have read, I hope will go some way to allay the fears of those who worry about this site, some I know intend to leave, (I am not one of them) some have already found other sites and are testing the waters there and some have gone off to search out our recently departed Admins out of great respect and loyalty to some fine folk that most of us owe a great deal and (This IS my opinion,) have left a gaping hole in this site.

My point of view is simple. I have long since ceased to regularly post my Avian images here as they did not fit into the style and quality of the images that grace this site but I get as much if not more pleasure from looking at the wonderful work that is so common to this site and the forums that I do participate in I enjoy and I read just about everything there is to read here.

I share my work with some members privately, partly because I can give them much larger Images to work with and partly because we have a different and private relationship and I have learned much more from our private conversations that would be possible from the small (yes I do understand bandwidth) images posted here, I have this site to thank for their friendship.

I hope but doubt that the replies will satisfy all the concerns expressed to me, possibly we will lose some members possibly time will heal any wounds.

I hope this helps if not, C'est la vie[/I].

Hi Chris, Thanks for dropping by. I do not understand several things that you mentioned but such is life I guess. I would love to have you explain some of them but your attitude above seems to be kiss off. If I am wrong please let me know and I shall ask for clarifications.

The one thing that I cannot fathom are your (or your pals' ???--it is hard to tell who was speaking when one goes back to your original post) statements as follow:

"Many of the comments that friends and members have made to me are the commercial direction that the site appears to be going.

The many questions asked, seem to be directed to an advertising mode and the once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art appears to have been sacrificed to expensive and unaffordable to most, guided tours that though wonderful, are out of the range of the majority of members."

I ask again, what in the world are you (or they) talking about? Please provide even a single link and show me what whomever is talking about. The stuff about forsaking the "once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art" for a more commercial approach is--to put it bluntly--pure bs. Was that your concerns or the concerns of your running mates. If the latter, please have them chime in here.

Lastly, if folks prefer to hear "Big Congrats" for their poor images rather than receive honest critiques they are free to leave. As several of us have indicated, we are staying true to our course here.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 07:57 PM

.....

You cannot expect BPN to be your mother, who will like whatever you shoot.

All well said and thanks for your support. The line that I left above cracked me up.

James Shadle

09-22-2010, 08:13 PM

In a effort to try to lighten the mood I present the following:

Thanks for converting the "Sliding Shadle Shiny Scale" to the "Sliding Shadle Sensitivity Scale".
Leave it to Chris to drop a line that inside on 9500 people.

Way back in the day I offered a discounted workshop for members of Photomigrations.Net .
Chris, Deb, Debbie, Mike B and Bill Horn were there (who did I miss?).
We were covering exposure theory and I explained how scene tonality affected reflected meters. I then went on to explain that reflectivity of the metered area also affected the meter.

Before I was done explaining, our own Chris Ober dubbed my reflectivity theory the "Sliding Shadle Shiny Scale"

The workshop was a hoot and yes, Chris does own and use a camera;)

James Shadle

09-22-2010, 08:19 PM

Chris,
You lost me here. Please help me understand: "The second relates to a good post by James but I just wish to point out to James that some who made the observations are closer to him than he may think, no names no pack drill James."

Thanks

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-22-2010, 08:57 PM

Artie,

What I said about being the "Devils Advocate" is the point, I wrote on behalf mostly of others so lets clear up one point my personal disappointment was the departure of two (and now possibly more) folk for whom I had an extraordinary respect and who like so many others recieved their benign guidance when I needed it and the way many of us felt about way of their leaving.

As regards commercialism, as you know I have enjoyed all my purchases made through BPN and the guidance to other outlets by members here so no complaints from me there.

The folk who complained had availed themselves of services provided in the USA, nothing whatsoever to do with the Aussie end and some of these folk are from other countries outside the USA and availed themselves of services when they visited the US. I have advised them to take the matters up with the people involved personally as I do not intend to enter further into what is really their business.

My own observations is that the site is definitely going through a Hiatus on some forums and there does appear to be a little less appreciation shown by members to some who post images on the Avian forum.

Every good site in whatever field has at some time or another had its "moments" I suspect the leaving of our senior members shook may of us to the core more so as to we don't really know what caused the breakup and as this is a privately owned site it is the right of the owners to keep those matters private.

Reading the messages posted in this thread has also given me some concern as I could sense that some wished to speak their mind a bit more but were not comfortable to do so, also indicitative of a "family breakup"

"I ask again, what in the world are you (or they) talking about? Please provide even a single link and show me what whomever is talking about. The stuff about forsaking the "once great philosophy of photography for the greater good of the art" for a more commercial approach is--to put it bluntly--pure bs. Was that your concerns or the concerns of your running mates. If the latter, please have them chime in here."

It is not normally like you to be rude but I consider that statement to be personally offensive and certainly unnecessary and Artie what rubbish is this "running mates" this is a friendly forum and I never resort to political chicanery and "Chime in here" will just about guarantee that they won't and may well isolate others I totally fail to see the sense in that statement, especially as the author of "Birds as Art" a book and DVD that I treasure.

I see no future in pursuing this as it appears to be deteriorating into personal attacks and I will have no part in that.

Sorry one point I left out I believe was started by Dave Mills was the matter of membership fees, everyone who talked to me is a paid up member not one made any mention of fees being any concern at all and it never even occured to me until I read this thread that anyone could possibly complain about the value of the very moderate fee charged for the wealth of information supplied.

Arthur Morris

09-22-2010, 09:09 PM

Hey Chris, Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Dave Mills

09-22-2010, 10:26 PM

Mr Cooke, If you read the threads carefully I was responding to Mr Sloan. You both happened to be named Chris so I can understand the mixup.
Mr Sloan was very clear about his concern regarding a membership fee hurting the site and I was attempting to show the value of the site to counter his statement.
I can't believe I'm even discussing $20.

Joerg Rockenberger

09-22-2010, 10:59 PM

Having no/little beef in that particular debate I DO wonder why Akos' post was deleted. JR

Ken Watkins

09-22-2010, 11:07 PM

I certainly hope not, I have learnt more from this site in two years than I could ever have found elsewhere.

I must confess to not having posted in a while as I have been away in Southern Tanzania and Northern Zimbabwe. I now intend to post lots as I have lots, I only hope I have enough time.

Jamie Douglas

09-23-2010, 12:19 AM

Not to churp in with my 2 cents and risk sounding like a peace loving Canadian (Iam scottish by the way so not the peace hugging type :)) but it simply sounds like the forums are going through a bit of a change since a few big and well respected names moved on to knew things. We cant expect folks like the Forns etc to simply stay loyal to one site forever, people need a change. Unfortunetly they left big shoes to fill so why don't folks start being proactive about filling these shoes rather than complaining? This is a place of people opinions so people aint always going to see eye to eye and comments will be misinterpreted.

I joined about a year ago and thanks to the critique and comments folks proivded my photography has improved ten fold. I am not posting this to brown nose but I see myself as the sort of amatuer who stands to learn a lot from the caliber of photos and critique available through this site and for $20 I can't complain.

My site contains photos taken since joining BPN last October and I spent over a year prior to joining this site fumbeling about with so many unanswered questions.

I am also a long way from being a so called expert so it looks like I'll be around for a while.

My work in progress site and facebook page...

http://jmdouglasphotography.zenfolio.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/J-M-Douglas-Photography/150570641630962

Jamie

I am certainly much happier with my photography since joining this site a year ago so I will definetly be renewing my membership.
:cheers:

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 12:35 AM

Having no/little beef in that particular debate I DO wonder why Akos' post was deleted. JR

It had nothing to do with the discussion at hand. Several comments back I encouraged everyone to stay on topic.
If Akos is serious he can send me a PM, he knows I'll be happy to speak with him about it.

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 12:38 AM

Jamie,
You said: "This is a place of people opinions so people aint always going to see eye to eye and comments will be misinterpreted."
Art is an opinion business! And you know what they say about opinions;).

You hit the nail one the head (as several have). Thanks for the comments.

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-23-2010, 01:15 AM

Mr Cooke, If you read the threads carefully I was responding to Mr Sloan. You both happened to be named Chris so I can understand the mixup.
Mr Sloan was very clear about his concern regarding a membership fee hurting the site and I was attempting to show the value of the site to counter his statement.
I can't believe I'm even discussing $20.

In which case I apologize I assumed that it was directed at myself which came as somewhat as a shock as I consider membership here as my best investment in the USA. :)

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 01:29 AM

I want to say this,
We are in a transition period. The new forum software package is not complete and I have yet to notify our members of some of the many new features.
My work load has increased as you can imagine and that has prevented the completion of the above. The net result is all of the exciting features I should be implementing are temporally on the back burner.

Several staff members have stepped up to take on additional responsibilities and have been lifesavers. Before long we will have additional qualified, energetic folks on staff (Jim Neiger is already on board).

Let me tell you about the staff that we have right now. Most, if not all of our staff members were "strongly encouraged " to leave BPN by some in the small group that moved on.
I received PMs and emails from our remaining staff members telling me in no uncertain terms they would not abandon our members. No matter how "strongly they were encouraged " to defect, they were staying because they made a commitment to you.
In addition to expressing their commitment to you, they wondered how anyone could walk away from you and your BPN learning experience.

I can not tell you how proud I am of our staff!!!!!!

We are not going anywhere but up. As I said we are in a transition period, during a traditionally slow time of year.
Once I have added additional staff members, we will finish the forum software and announce with tutorials the new member features.

One final note. When I approached those who would become my partners with my idea for BPN, it was to be totally free. Thank goodness they talked some sense into me.
As I learned, a good hosting service is expensive. I was prepared to work for free (as we all do) but I was not prepared(or able)to spends thousands of dollars a year out of pocket to keep "the doors open".

I knew as mention earlier, advertising can be an issue (we may need to add some in the future) with members so we knew coming out of the block not to count on ad income.

So we decided to make all of the features necessary to learn photography free. For those who wanted to help support the site (THANK YOU!!) and have some added features and privileges we came up with a very affordable membership.

Please understand - without paid memberships, there would be no BPN - NSN -NPN.
Not only are our paid members supporting BPN, they are also supporting those who choose to use BPN for free.

Again to those who have chosen to support us by buying a membership, Thank You!!

It's 2:30 am right now(USA EDT). I'll get up for the day job in 3.5 hours from now.
If I felt the least bit unsure of our course, commitment or chances, I would have been in bed several hours ago rather than writing this note;).

Hazel Grant

09-23-2010, 01:56 AM

As a member of about 3 years and as one who posts/comments often at times with rests between, I just want to add my support to the continuation of the site. I am not posting quite as often as when I first joined because of scheduling conflicts with my photo op times but mostly because I have learned so much from this site that I can now be more judgmental of what I should post. I don't want to post photos just for the fun of it. I want to participate and learn--and that happens for me. I have found I can be more observant in my critiques, having developed a better eye. I am amazed at the detail others have gone to as they write helpful guidance for me. Sometimes I post a photo and get no comments except from the moderator who I think took pity on me---and that's ok. I re-look at that photo to evaluate why it got no response. Othertimes, I get many comments. I'm not sure what all prompted this long, long group of comments about maybe closing the site, but I for one hope it stays open. I learn so much from others' comments and from trying to generate my own.

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 02:08 AM

As a member of about 3 years and as one who posts/comments often at times with rests between, I just want to add my support to the continuation of the site. I am not posting quite as often as when I first joined because of scheduling conflicts with my photo op times but mostly because I have learned so much from this site that I can now be more judgmental of what I should post. I don't want to post photos just for the fun of it. I want to participate and learn--and that happens for me. I have found I can be more observant in my critiques, having developed a better eye. I am amazed at the detail others have gone to as they write helpful guidance for me. Sometimes I post a photo and get no comments except from the moderator who I think took pity on me---and that's ok. I re-look at that photo to evaluate why it got no response. Othertimes, I get many comments. I'm not sure what all prompted this long, long group of comments about maybe closing the site, but I for one hope it stays open. I learn so much from others' comments and from trying to generate my own.

No worries Hazel, we are not going anywhere!
The original question was asked by someone for someone else who thought forum traffic may be down.
The thread then took on a life of it's own.

There is not even a remote chance we are going away (much to the chagrin of the haters)

Daniel Cadieux

09-23-2010, 05:19 AM

I see BPN as a thriving and growing community of eager, willing, and thankful members/participants/mods. Yes, there was a bit of a short-term stumble a little while back with key people leaving...but there is a renewed energy and BPN has become stronger than ever and will continue to grow. There will always be some disagreements and misinterpretations on any forums (I've seen those on the "other" sites too)...especially when dealing with critiques where opinions can and do differ. All part of the learning experience for all of us.

This thread alone proves the site is not dying out, but rather alive and well!:)

Nicki Gwynn Jones

09-23-2010, 06:18 AM

I wish you guys would stop deleting Akos's posts - I'd be interested to read what he has to say...when I sat down at the beginning of my coffee break there was a short post from him a couple of panes above this one. A couple of minutes later it was gone. Whatever happened to free speech?? :confused:

Here's my 2 pennies for what they are worth (please remember that I'm a Brit :D).
I do think that this is a wonderful site for many reasons and I can't imagine that anyone would quibble over $20. If you can afford bird photography as a hobby then you can afford $20. But that issue has already been done to death in this thread.
I also think that it is true that the resignation of the Forns has left an huge hole. It seems to me that they were broad-minded and showed real compassion towards those of us who are trying to learn, and I received so much encouragement from both of them to be true to my own 'voice'. Part of the reason that I have not posted lately (apart from lack of time - I won't post unless I have time to comment on other people's work) is that I feel that I get little encouragement of this kind. It seems to me that if an image does not conform to certain rigid nature photography standards then there is a view here that the image is of little value. This is simply not true - there are so many ways in which to enjoy an image.
The Forns also brought humour and a sense of community spirit to the site, particularly in 'Friends and Family'. Learning should be fun - maybe we should all lighten-up a little :cool:
Respectfully,
Nicki

Chris Ober

09-23-2010, 07:56 AM

I wish you guys would stop deleting Akos's posts - I'd be interested to read what he has to say...when I sat down at the beginning of my coffee break there was a short post from him a couple of panes above this one. A couple of minutes later it was gone. Whatever happened to free speech?? :confused:

If replies were kept civil, on topic and didn't try imply a comparison to Eastern European communism, (as the one I saw did) then I'm sure they wouldn't have been removed.

In the US, and this site is operated in the US, our constitutional rights are guaranteed only when the government (and not a private citizen) tries to limit our freedoms. Since this isn't a government owned or sponsored institution, the free speech rights in the first amendment are not guaranteed nor do they have to be.

Learning should be fun - maybe we should all lighten-up a little :cool:
Nicki

Well said! Let's get back to photography and stop the bickering. Please?

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/content.php?3-BirdPhotographers.Net-Guidelines

AJ Witt

09-23-2010, 08:04 AM

Wow! I just spent the first 30 minutes of my morning at work reading this thread (don't tell the boss please!). I think one thing the members / potential members need to keep in mind is that the administrators of this site have built the site & community how they envision it. I enjoy the site and how they have built it. While I may not agree with every little thing that goes on here, I do enjoy it for what it is...the best nature photography site on the net in which I can get honest critiques on my images and some very worthwhile information that has greatly improved my photography skills over the last year!

I view it like this, this site is like a business in which the moderators (ie business owners) can run it as they desire. If a potential member doesn't care for it, they are free to leave, just like you would not go back to a business in which you feel you were treated poorly or just didn't care for. It's frustrating seeing unhappy participants trying to tell the moderators what is wrong with the site and why they don't like it, which causes everyone to get defensive and from that, no good comes along...IMO, of course.

I once had the belief that with so much free information on the net about photography, putting money into web sites such as this and also workshops (which I feel are mostly over priced) are a waste. However, after subscribing to a couple of the more popular photography magazines and seeing what uninformative information (just my opinion) they put in them along with ALL the advertisements, I feel that the money to join this site is the best bang for your buck.

Let's all go shoot and stop the bickering!

Connie Mier

09-23-2010, 08:21 AM

I wish I had caught this thread earlier, my point will probably seem moot by now. I belonged to a previous forum prior to joining BPN over a year ago. I honestly believe that my photography skills have increased more this past year partly due to the thoughtful critiques that I have received from so many. My previous experience was flat, I received very little if any constructive critiques (despite posting on others).

I came to this forum for one reason to learn so that I can improve my photography skills, period (networking and making friends are bonuses). I prefer direct comments. Might be that I am use to being peer-reviewed in my profession and have been raked over the coals a few times that I can say, "Bring it on!". And the genuine "pat on the back" comments are useful too because that tells me that the photo has some merit to it.

The bottomline is, I'll use those critiques and helpful suggestions to my advantage. There is nothing personally advantageous about getting bent out of shape over a comment or lack of comment.
Connie

RichardLaBella

09-23-2010, 08:37 AM

Hey Folks, let's get a grip! There are thousands of us out there participating on this site & there is bound to be disagreement when that number of people interact. Could everyone take a deep breath before keeping this thread going?

This is a valuable site and we should be concentrating on contributing to it's success, not tearing it down. And on the defense side, maybe being not quite so defensive could help. I know this site is dear to the developers/moderators, but this back & fourth is only making things worse. Let this thread die.

This is reply # 96 - is this a record?

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 08:58 AM

I wish you guys would stop deleting Akos's posts - I'd be interested to read what he has to say...when I sat down at the beginning of my coffee break there was a short post from him a couple of panes above this one. A couple of minutes later it was gone. Whatever happened to free speech?? :confused:

Here's my 2 pennies for what they are worth (please remember that I'm a Brit :D).
I do think that this is a wonderful site for many reasons and I can't imagine that anyone would quibble over $20. If you can afford bird photography as a hobby then you can afford $20. But that issue has already been done to death in this thread.
I also think that it is true that the resignation of the Forns has left an huge hole. It seems to me that they were broad-minded and showed real compassion towards those of us who are trying to learn, and I received so much encouragement from both of them to be true to my own 'voice'. Part of the reason that I have not posted lately (apart from lack of time - I won't post unless I have time to comment on other people's work) is that I feel that I get little encouragement of this kind. It seems to me that if an image does not conform to certain rigid nature photography standards then there is a view here that the image is of little value. This is simply not true - there are so many ways in which to enjoy an image.
The Forns also brought humour and a sense of community spirit to the site, particularly in 'Friends and Family'. Learning should be fun - maybe we should all lighten-up a little :cool:
Respectfully,
Nicki

Nicki,
Akos comments were off topic and I ask earlier in this thread that everyone stay on topic. Akos and I exchanged PMs about the matter and he understands why I deleted them.

The Family and Friends forum was my idea, so I feel the way you do. It does foster a sense of community and it's fun. When the Forns left some of their close friends left also.
Judy Lynn and Harold were our "Friends and Family" moderators. IMO that is why the educational side of BPN was unaffected, but it "feels" different.
Let me assure you I'm working hard to get the feel back, like I said this is a transition period.

Most have heard me state my goal for BPN to be the best place to teach and learn as well as a fun place.
That goal has not changed.

When without any warning or advanced notice, key staff members leave a forum it takes a little time to fill those shoes.
Had I known in advance we would have prepared accordingly.

Arthur Morris

09-23-2010, 08:59 AM

This is reply # 96 - is this a record?

Hi Rich, Good to see you here. Head Angle Fine Points (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?69803-Head-Angle-Fine-Points&p=570223#post570223) currently has 147 comments. In time it will pass 1,000. There is tons of great free info in Educational Resources (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?30-Tutorials-and-Educational-Resources), our most under-utilized forum.

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 09:00 AM

This is reply # 96 - is this a record?
Still way off;).

Bill Jobes

09-23-2010, 09:07 AM

This debate started innocently enough with a query about participation in BPN since the departure of two highly respected founders, the Forns, and a few other moderators who followed in their wake.
Because of the timing of the original, legitimate query, its posting was understandably greeted with suspicion by our current leadership.
As much as most of us would prefer to get back to photography discussions, this one shows that healing after a trauma takes time.
Full recovery would occur much sooner if all who wish to speak would be permitted to do so, freely. If their remarks are hurtful or incendiary, so be it. Their intent will be transparent and their message diminished.
The good news: everyone who has participated in this discussion has contributed to the strengthening of BPN.
The better news: Thanks to the generous mentoring of Arthur Morris and the other artisan moderators, plus the engagement of image artists from all over the globe, the Internet's most prestigious avian photography community will thrive and prosper.

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 09:24 AM

This debate started innocently enough with a query about participation in BPN since the departure of two highly respected founders, the Forns, and a few other moderators who followed in their wake.
Because of the timing of the original, legitimate query, its posting was understandably greeted with suspicion by our current leadership.
As much as most of us would prefer to get back to photography discussions, this one shows that healing after a trauma takes time.
Full recovery would occur much sooner if all who wish to speak would be permitted to do so, freely. If their remarks are hurtful or incendiary, so be it. Their intent will be transparent and their message diminished.
The good news: everyone who has participated in this discussion has contributed to the strengthening of BPN.
The better news: Thanks to the generous mentoring of Arthur Morris and the other artisan moderators, plus the engagement of image artists from all over the globe, the Internet's most prestigious avian photography community will thrive and prosper.

Bill,
So as long as the comments are on topic and civil they are allowed.
Guideline #11 would take issue with " hurtful or incendiary".

You were a newspaper man:), I'm adding the words hurtful or incendiary to guideline #11.
James

PS Bill, how about helping out in the new Photojournalism forum;).

Bill Jobes

09-23-2010, 09:33 AM

Glad to contribute to the Guidelines, Captain.

Please PM regarding the Photojournalism forum.

Giulio Zanni

09-23-2010, 10:42 AM

I just regret that in this part of Europe, at this time of the year, there are not many photographic opportunities for birds, so I am not active in posting on this great site as I would like to be. Otherwise, BPN is the bible for bird photography.

Giulio

Richard Stern

09-23-2010, 12:09 PM

Hi,

I was off line for 2 weeks, so I have tried to catch up with this thread and others all in one go.

Frankly I'm amazed at the dis-satisfaction apparently expressed by some people. Where else can you get valuable critiques done in person by some of the best nature photographers on the planet for such a small fee? In the couple of years that I have been a member, it has been a better learning experience for me than anything else related to bird photography, and I think the small fee is excellent value for money. Yes, sometimes the comments are rather abrasive and not particularly gentle, but they remind me of the best teachers we had years ago at Med school, and they're the ones I still remember. Now, when I take pictures of a bird, I always (try to!) take note of the head angle, the background and the lighting, and I now know much better some of the limitations of my equipment. I have also learned how to critique others' work in other forums and in person.

My only issue with BPN in general is that there is still a rather limited number of people who repeatedly critique the images (e.g. the moderators and a few others). That 's nobody's fault but the members, and I think my own experience answers the question as to why - although I have started taking Artie's advice and try to post more comments than images, I still feel a rank amateur compared with the regulars here, and I'm still unsure of the value or otherwise of my comments. If many of my posts receive comments about head angle, sharpness, bg noise etc., who am I to criticise others? I suspect others feel the same.

A while back I saw a thread in another forum, where someone posted some bird images that, frankly, left a lot to be desired. When another poster made the honest comment that that was the case, the original poster complained. The reply was -Then post on BPN if you dare! and that to me was as good a recommendation for BPN as any I have seen.

There are of course other websites and forums that showcase superb bird, nature and wildlife images, and some of these invite comments - but often they're "Great shot!" type comments that do much for the ego but little for the learning. We all like to have our ego stroked from time to time, and when I want that, I post elsewhere. I have seen fabulous images on the web from people who don't seem to post on BPN, and I wish they would. I have also seen images posted on BPN that are also posted to other forums, but never with the same degree, if any, of critiquing.

If people feel that BPN is failing, or too expensive, then my advice is Go and find somewhere else just as good if you can, or start your own!

Cheers,

Richard

Flavio Rose

09-23-2010, 02:35 PM

As someone who mostly lurks, because I can't think of anything to say about such excellent images, I think the site is great. I especially like Avian ID. Also, I haven't paid any money, instead hosting my images externally, and yet derived considerable benefit.

I am a bit irritated at the gear forum at this point, however, and do regret the departure of certain formerly prolific posters. It's not clear to me that there can be a really useful gear forum anywhere due to the amazing variability of people's impressions of gear.

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 04:04 PM

I am a bit irritated at the gear forum at this point,

Me too!!!(and I the moderator there). I have big plans for that forum - gear drives traffic.
However as I mentioned my workload is considerable right now.

Keep checking, we have RSS ability so we can have the news as it's happening. Having the latest equipment news and REVIEWS are just around the corner.

James

Arthur Morris

09-23-2010, 04:15 PM

Like gear? See here (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?72311-Canon-Introduces-Six-New-L-Series-EF-Lenses-And-Accessories).

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-23-2010, 04:45 PM

Thank you for the above post Artie.

PS. My Bank Manager, Credit Card Company, Accountant, Australian Taxation Office, Customs and Excise, International Goods Carrier and The US Postal Service would like to thank you and assure you that you will be on their Christmas Card List from now on.

Sadly, my wife has advertised for a Hit Man.

It has been really nice knowing you. :)

Norm Dulak

09-23-2010, 05:12 PM

I am a bit irritated at the gear forum at this point, however, and do regret the departure of certain formerly prolific posters. It's not clear to me that there can be a really useful gear forum anywhere due to the amazing variability of people's impressions of gear.

Flavio, you said a mouth full, especially for Nikon shooters. BPN is almost exclusively a Canon club, and while there is some help for Nikon people, it's not very significant.

If you need further proof of that, look at the posting of Arthur Morris above: "Like gear? See here." And when you click on that link, you'll see nothing but Canon lenses and accessories.:(

Thank goodness for the Nikonians!

Daniel Cadieux

09-23-2010, 05:44 PM

Good thing you got James on your side Norm!:)

Norm Dulak

09-23-2010, 05:56 PM

Good thing you got James on your side Norm!:)

Yup! We've circled our wagons and are making our last stand together!!! :D

Was that a Canon I heard going off in the distance?

John Hawkins

09-23-2010, 07:23 PM

I just have to respond to this. I am a verrrrry amateur photographer. Still struggling to improve. I am here to tell you, the knowledge I have gained here is unbelievable. I used to go to those "other sites" and I always had such great praise for my photos. I was my toughest critic tho and soon realized I was wasting my time there. The top notch photographers that gather on this site and give of themselves unselfishly is beyond my belief. What other profession would teach their trade for free? I would pay 20.00 a month to use this site. (Don't try to bill me James). I have improved so much from help on this site, I couldn't began to tell you. I am just like anyone else, when I post a picture, I think it is pretty good and feel proud. Sometimes the critque hurts. But just for a moment. Once I read the responses, I begin to agree most of the time and start to feel better that I just learned something. So take my 2 cents for what it is worth. I for one think this site is invaluable.
John

Arthur Morris

09-23-2010, 07:27 PM

Hey John, Your comments put a big smile on my face. Especially the $20 per month bit! I am thrilled that you see how hard we are working to stay on course: honest critiques done gently (or in my case, sometimes not all that gently :) But I do try. Will see you on the boards :)

Chris Ober

09-23-2010, 07:30 PM

Here you go Nikon guys.... http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?72322-Nikon-D-7000-first-impressions-review&p=570574#post570574

Flavio, you said a mouth full, especially for Nikon shooters. BPN is almost exclusively a Canon club, and while there is some help for Nikon people, it's not very significant.

If you need further proof of that, look at the posting of Arthur Morris above: "Like gear? See here." And when you click on that link, you'll see nothing but Canon lenses and accessories.:(

Thank goodness for the Nikonians!

James Shadle

09-23-2010, 07:38 PM

Flavio, you said a mouth full, especially for Nikon shooters. BPN is almost exclusively a Canon club, and while there is some help for Nikon people, it's not very significant.

If you need further proof of that, look at the posting of Arthur Morris above: "Like gear? See here." And when you click on that link, you'll see nothing but Canon lenses and accessories.:(

Thank goodness for the Nikonians!

Norm,
One of my nick names is Darth Vader. I have been on the "dark side"(you know black lenseshttp://www.birdphotographers.net/images/smilies/wink.gif;)) a long time.

As I mentioned, the gear forum will soon live up to my expectations.

Norm Dulak

09-24-2010, 06:06 AM

Norm,
One of my nick names is Darth Vader. I have been on the "dark side"(you know black lenseshttp://www.birdphotographers.net/images/smilies/wink.gif;)) a long time.

As I mentioned, the gear forum will soon live up to my expectations.

Two thoughts. The dark side distinction is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain, with LensCoat covering almost every big lens! :p And I look forward to the gear forum improvements. Meanwhile, I'll just have to Klingon! :D

Myer Bornstein

09-24-2010, 08:14 AM

This discussion is changing, we are now getting into Nikon/Canon. On my last 2 photo shoots with a group, the first in Alaska was probably 7525 in favor of Nikon and the last with Artie. I was the only Nikon user. And I kept getting ribbed about it. However, all things aside, the critiques and discussion on how to improve your photography doesn't matter what system you are using it is how you take your picture and what you do with it afterwards. BPN does a great job in teaching us how to improve our pictures both ways, and I'm glad to see they will continue doing so.

Hazel Grant

09-24-2010, 09:06 AM

I can't believe people are complaining about $20 a year for this site! When I think of all I've learned here, of the community of interested people, etc......

Arthur Morris

09-24-2010, 10:33 AM

This discussion is changing, we are now getting into Nikon/Canon. On my last 2 photo shoots with a group, the first in Alaska was probably 7525 in favor of Nikon and the last with Artie. I was the only Nikon user. And I kept getting ribbed about it. However, all things aside, the critiques and discussion on how to improve your photography doesn't matter what system you are using it is how you take your picture and what you do with it afterwards. BPN does a great job in teaching us how to improve our pictures both ways, and I'm glad to see they will continue doing so.

You are right Myer: it ain't the camera and it ain't the lens. And it certainly ain't the camera system.

And in the long run, this thread has turned out to be in--large part--an affirmation that we are doing things right here and that BPN is a great place to be (aside from the opinions of a very few folks who choose to emphasize any and all negatives aspects that they can come up with).

Katie Rupp

09-24-2010, 10:38 AM

Echoing what's already been said, this is the best $20 I've ever spent! Thanks to what I've learned as a result of BPN membership and participation, I moved from rank amateur to putting out some respectable work, including a Best in Show award at a juried photo exhibit this past summer. Though sometimes it was painful, the critiques and comments have hellped (and are still helping) me in so many ways. Having the opportunity to interact with photographers from all over the world, and better yet, meeting some of them has been a great experience and gives me the sense of community.

Perhaps this thread was needed to talk about the changes that happened in August. That said, here's my thanks to James, Artie and all the moderators and fellow members/participants who post their work and take the time to foster learning and growth. And I have to add that I was reluctant to critique others work but once you get past the initial apprehension, the process actually helps you grow and is the best way to give back.

I'll have some more, please.

Katie Rupp

Arthur Morris

09-24-2010, 10:44 AM

Hey Katie, Big congrats on the best in show. And TSMFYMTKW-TAGA. YPABSOMF = Thanks so much for your more than kind words--they are greatly appreciated. You put a big smile on my face :)

John Chardine

09-25-2010, 03:51 PM

I've been away for a while but have followed this thread. There's lots potentially to say but I'll stick to what I know best. I am a scientist in my day job and integral to the scientific process is exposing your work to peer review. The process involves writing a manuscript based on your research, on your own or with others, polishing it up several times and then submitting it to a science journal for consideration. The journal editor then turns around and sends the manuscript to usually 2 or 3 independent peers for candid review. My experience over the years is generally that you submit what you think is the best paper you have ever written only to have it c r a p p e d on by one or both reviewers, or maybe praised by just one of them. Early on this is devastating but as you mature you realise the value of this system to ultimately produce the best published science possible. And if you don't get discouraged, the process hugely improves your research and writing skills so long as you maintain the attitude that life-long learning is the key.

I mention this because I am struck by how similar BPN works. You submit an image for peer review and comments both positive and constructively negative come back. If you are a life-long learner, you soak up all this information (both + and -) like a sponge and use it for your next endeavor, and the process works to incrementally improve your skills.

One key to this process is receiving honest opinion on what you have produced (the other is being a life-long learner), and that's what separates in my opinion, BPN from the so-called competitors out there. Receiving constructive but negative opinion on something you have produced can be a bitter pill but it is the only way I know of to progress beyond where you are now. Finally, if this process is not for you, then that is absolutely fine. To each his/her own. In the same way, if I had such a thin skin that I could not take having my nose rubbed in the caca every now and then I would have long since left the science field.

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-25-2010, 08:05 PM

Very well put John, sums it up nicely. :)

Paul Lagasi

09-25-2010, 09:30 PM

Ditto, Ditto, Ditto...John I couldn't have put it better myself....:confused:...no seriously I couldn't have.

When I first started here I was a bit thin skinned at comments on some of my photos..but you get over it or move on and lose out.

$20.00 dollars a year, come one folks we're using cameras and lenses that cost thousands..and I've learned cropping, color, sharpening halos ;) and composition. My Wife is a registrar of the Canadian Photo collection and says how some (not all) of my images have improved since joining.

Best of all OOTB, Macro and other forms of photography, I would never have tried...

Made a lot of friends...some I've met and some I will meet some day...

My 2% of a dollar...

Juan Carlos Vindas

09-25-2010, 09:57 PM

I am arriving late here and don't want to comment strictly on the top issue, but I see that one comment on someone's image but never receive any advise back from this poster, I could include names if I have to but that is not going to help. Just for all of us to understand how important it is to receive feedback from others.

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-26-2010, 12:17 AM

Juan, you are in my opinion, quite correct, in that if someone posts images on a forum for critique and receives some critique good or bad it would appear to be the polite and professional thing to do to respond to the Member who made the effort and took the time to critique the image. :)

alexgwoodruff

09-26-2010, 05:34 AM

I am (by comparison to the other posters on this thread) a VERY new participant to this forum and although my voice is lost in the crowd I thought this topic could benefit from the viewpoint of the new guy. I am a member of several photography forums, I have seen some die, I have lost interest in others... I am now at the point where I frequent 2 forums. The first is a general photography forum with critiques by other members - I love it there, it is supportive, friendly and among the birding threads I have made some good online contacts. My main concern with the forum is that the critiques are seldom constructive, usually the responses to an image tend to be 'cool shot', 'great timing', 'nice capture' etc. It is nice to get these back-pats, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy, but does nothing for the improvement of my technique, my understanding or my creativity.
By chance I stumbled across this forum (after reading one of Mr Morris' books and googling his name to find more tutorials) - I headed to the critiques and was absolutely thunderstruck by the expanse of knowledge and wisdom within these pages, I had no idea that such finite differences in the head angle could benefit an image, and what on earth are virtual feet?
I spend hours trawling the threads picking up titbits of information, awed by the images and trying desperately to find any amount of credibility to my own voice so that I can add a comment... who wants to have these honest, no holding back critiques to be followed by my 'cool shot' response! My ignorance is too painful to put on display alongside the esteemed photographers I see here.
I am grateful to have found this place, to be taking advantage of the free education and to look through the threads and see the names of photographers that I recognise, admire and whose work I aspire to equal.
Thank you to everyone who contributes to this site; be it as a contributor or as part of the admin. Being here will surely help my photography in ways that I could not have dreamed of.
I will add to the forum as I am able - this I promise! In the meantime please know that you all are hugely appreciated.

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-26-2010, 07:50 AM

And just how much were you paid for that eloquent dissertation espousing the wonders of a forum that most of us accept as simply the norm.

I can also point you at at least 2 Australian forums on the fine hobby of photography knowing that when I post photographs taken after consuming vast quantities of low quality "Vin Very Ordinaire" knowing that I will receive glowing praise for the wonderful way the bird looked despite the fact it had its back to me, the glowing tributes as to the wonderful lighting though I had forgotten to turn the flash on for that exquisite photo of a Powerful Owl not to mention the "Goodonya mate great Eagle" when tucked in the lower corner of a bush setting was a small dead sparrow.

BPN, is slightly more refined than that and we love the fact that most of our fine photographers were, in another life, both book and film critics and consequently hated by all mankind.

Despite that they do teach us to be like them, "if we survive."

Ask for a refund. :) :)

And Alex, please do not take me seriously, even my wife does not and thanks for chiming in.:)

peter delaney

09-26-2010, 05:41 PM

Eish.....thats the last time I go away safari for 3 weeks...:)
My 2 cents ... I am a proud member of BPN,ODP and NS... Photography has been my passion for over 13 years, the last 4 have been dedicated to Nature photography... this year on a personal note has been my best, I have achieved and come very close to personal goals that I had set myself.....I know in my heart and soul that without this site and other two my learning curve would have been much harder and longer to achieve those goals.... so a big thank you to the mods..[esp LandScape] for there tireless work..and to fellow members who also critique...... I must confess and apologize for my lack of commenting on other member images... my posting rate is terrible... I will do my best to improve....

One of the important things that attracted me to BPN was the professionalism and etiquette to the critique and the respect members showed one and other in their posting ... long may this continue..

James Shadle

09-26-2010, 07:32 PM

I am (by comparison to the other posters on this thread) a VERY new participant to this forum and although my voice is lost in the crowd I thought this topic could benefit from the viewpoint of the new guy. I am a member of several photography forums, I have seen some die, I have lost interest in others... I am now at the point where I frequent 2 forums. The first is a general photography forum with critiques by other members - I love it there, it is supportive, friendly and among the birding threads I have made some good online contacts. My main concern with the forum is that the critiques are seldom constructive, usually the responses to an image tend to be 'cool shot', 'great timing', 'nice capture' etc. It is nice to get these back-pats, it makes me feel warm and fuzzy, but does nothing for the improvement of my technique, my understanding or my creativity.
By chance I stumbled across this forum (after reading one of Mr Morris' books and googling his name to find more tutorials) - I headed to the critiques and was absolutely thunderstruck by the expanse of knowledge and wisdom within these pages, I had no idea that such finite differences in the head angle could benefit an image, and what on earth are virtual feet?
I spend hours trawling the threads picking up titbits of information, awed by the images and trying desperately to find any amount of credibility to my own voice so that I can add a comment... who wants to have these honest, no holding back critiques to be followed by my 'cool shot' response! My ignorance is too painful to put on display alongside the esteemed photographers I see here.
I am grateful to have found this place, to be taking advantage of the free education and to look through the threads and see the names of photographers that I recognise, admire and whose work I aspire to equal.
Thank you to everyone who contributes to this site; be it as a contributor or as part of the admin. Being here will surely help my photography in ways that I could not have dreamed of.
I will add to the forum as I am able - this I promise! In the meantime please know that you all are hugely appreciated.

"a VERY new participant to this forum and although my voice is lost"
I heard you loud and clear:)

Arthur Morris

09-26-2010, 07:36 PM

Furthermore to Alex, First off, thanks for you kind words. Next, as far as critiquing is concerned: it is simple. If you like an image, simply tell us what you like about it. If there is something that you do not like about an image, let us know that too and why.

Eric Virkler

09-27-2010, 05:42 AM

I put in my 2 cents so many posts back it's been long forgotten. To adjust for inflation I need to add one more.

I don't know if anyone else feels this way but maybe you could help out my way of thinking. I've done very little critiquing, therefore to be fair I've done very little posting (of images). The main reason is that if I post critiques of a bunch of images, I don't want to receive automated notification that another response to that post has been added. (99% of those posts will pertain to the image and not to me) I also don't want to go back to each post where I commented to see if they had a question about my critique. I don't want to leave a critique and never look back, for the obvious reason that it would be rude to the poster if he/she has a question for me and never respond due to never seeing it. Artie, how do you handle this?. You comment often and always respond to other's questions about your comments. Do you spend endless hours viewing all the comments, do you set it up for automated notification? I guess I'm just trying to find a way to do this without having to spend too much time in front of the computer (so I can go spend more time with my son).

It may seem silly but it's probably the biggest reason I haven't commented more often.

Thanks.

Eric Virkler
Faces of Nature Photography
www.ericjvirkler.com (http://www.ericjvirkler.com)

Arthur Morris

09-27-2010, 06:41 AM

Hi Erik, Thanks for re-visiting this important post. I reply to instant notifications. I recommend that everyone do the same. Otherwise, you are gonna miss something. Some folks do not even bother to check their own posts. On occasion I have spent five minutes on crafting a substantive critique, even created a repost, asked a question or two, and never heard back from the original poster. I do not click on every Reply Notification (RN), only those where I asked a question or where there was a possible issue of one sort or the other. The system is supposed to work so that if you do re-visit a thread after receiving a RN, you will not receive another. That works sometimes, but sometimes it does not. There is however, a simple solution: Reply to Instant Notifications. When you get a reply to a thread that you are sure that you do not wish to follow, simply hit the link that says,

"To unsubscribe from this thread, please visit this page:
http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/subscription.php?do=removesubscription&type=thread&subscriptionid=220186&auth=00657ecc032156e61f859781f7206bed"

I would never hit that one as it is for this thread :)

In truth, I go try to take a glance at most of the threads that I comment on just to make sure that I am not being rude to anyone. No matter how careful I am, I do miss a question every once in a while. In most cases, I am gently reminded. As here in Pane (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?72475-Early-Morning-Light-Juvie-Skimmer&p=572135#post572135) #9.

The short answer is, you will get out of BPN what you put into it. Do note however that there are some excellent photographers who drop off their images for critique and rarely if ever post comments on the work of others. I choose not to comment there.

I hope that my suggestions and comments prove helpful. And I do hope that you make it back here to read them :)

Roger Clark

09-27-2010, 08:25 AM

Eric,

The way I do it: I do not have notifications to threads turned on. But every thread I start or reply to is a subscribed thread. When I log in, I I go to quick links and click on subscribed threads from the pull down menu. Threads with new posts are in bold. I go to each one and read and reply as appropriate. Then I check many of the forums for new posts. Seems pretty efficient and the system keeps track of everything.

Roger

Michael Gerald-Yamasaki

09-27-2010, 11:53 AM

Folks,

Greetings. A comment about critiquing... As I've seen a few times:

it is simple. If you like an image, simply tell us what you like about it. If there is something that you do not like about an image, let us know that too and why.

I've wondered, it is simple, but how come the seemingly dearth of comments on Avian outside that of the moderators, more on ETL (but not without prompting by the moderators from time to time)?

I think honest critiquing given and taken is hard work, while simple. It's hard to swim against the tide as some folks say. There is ample feedback for posting images, but is there enough feedback for posting critiques?

I've thought that one way to increase the number of critiques is to, well, critique the critiques... especially when someone posts a critique that is particularly insightful and/or obviously taken a lot of thought. These do not necessarily need to be from the OP. And the insight that is gained need not be in the application to the OP, IMO (e.g. Oh, cool, so that's how you use curves to increase contrast.)

The moderators do a great job in modeling good critiquing behavior. Eliciting the same from others might need some reinforcement.

Cheers,

-Michael-

Randy Stout

09-27-2010, 12:12 PM

Michael:

I try to give credit to folks when they do a good critique. Esp. if you are a late poster in a thread, often most of the ground has been covered, so if someone has stated it particularly well ahead of you, let them know. I agree about positive reinforcement.

So, along those line, ' you brought up a good point' Thanks:D

Randy

Desmond Chan

09-27-2010, 08:54 PM

Michael:

I try to give credit to folks when they do a good critique. Esp. if you are a late poster in a thread, often most of the ground has been covered, so if someone has stated it particularly well ahead of you, let them know. I agree about positive reinforcement.

So, along those line, ' you brought up a good point' Thanks:D

Randy

There you go. To critique, all you have to do is to say:

1. what you like;
2. what you don't like;
3. "agree with the great comments above".

Or any combo of the above.

Five comments made in one sec :D

Christopher C.M. Cooke

09-28-2010, 02:26 AM

There you go. To critique, all you have to do is to say:

1. what you like;
2. what you don't like;
3. "agree with the great comments above".

Or any combo of the above.

I might add,
1. what you like; and why you like it.
2. what you don't like; and what you may have done differently and why.
3. "agree with the great comments above". No change here.

There is nothing to enthuse a person more that the belief that the person critiquing the image has the best intentions to help and not just making a passing comment.

Anyone who has teaching in their blood (and we do have one or two here) will understand that going the extra distance can make all the difference in the world to someone's continuing interest in their chosen subject.

Hilary Hann

10-06-2010, 06:58 AM

This is an interesting discussion and I'm not sure whether I can offer much in addition to what has been said already. I consider myself a fairly new member as far as regular postings, well it seems like just yesterday when I made my first tentative steps posting images but I have found BPN invaluable for the following reasons:
1. As a professional photographer I find I get bogged down in day to day, money earning photography. BPN has given me a creative outlet and meant that I can share creative ideas with other like minded people. That is good.
2. I make myself critique at least 5 images to each one I post, usually more. I have found that this is the hardest thing I've done here but possibly the most instructive as far as learning. The more I analyse an image, the more I learn about my own photography.
3. I am learning how to negotiate the huge egos which most photographers seem to have (not me of course! :p ). Good or bad is irrelevant, learning to communicate and get information from them is the important thing.
4. I also found the exodus of some big name, regular posters quite upsetting. It felt like losing old, trusted friends. Life sucks, you move on, but it takes time to get the balance back.
5. I have found my niche areas of photography interest and am happily exploiting these with lots of support and encouragement.

Sometimes we stumble, but I'm happy to continue posting and commenting here (and anywhere else for that matter), along with the regular seminars and workshops and competitions I participate in. Always something new to learn.

Thanks guys. :D

Kaustubh Deshpande

10-07-2010, 04:45 PM

I was on vacation and hence could not participate in this thread at the time. Spent some time going through it piece-by-piece.

All I want to say is that if there is an issue with participation/number of comments/ quality of comments, then we, partipants and members, are a part of the problem and should/will ultimately be the solution. So we should strive to do that. There is only so much moderators can do. Moreover, they travel more than most of us and might not always be able to do daily comments. Lets not forget that this site is great because of everyone's participation. The void left by some heavy hitters will have to be filled by us and I am hoping it will be. I know I'll keep doing what I have been.

Arthur Morris

10-07-2010, 08:10 PM

Hillary and Kaustubh, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Obviously, I wholeheartedly agree across the board.

Harshad Barve

10-07-2010, 10:15 PM

IMHO This website is photography learning institute

Just my 2 cents

Ken Watkins

10-07-2010, 11:13 PM

IMHO This website is photography learning institute

Just my 2 cents

I certainly could not disagree with that statement.

I for one have loads more images to post mainly Wildlife but a few Birds as well, and I greatly appreciate the comments on my recent efforts in that department, I think it shows me that I am slowly improving in this extremely difficult area.

I am a little dissapointed with Wildlife lately in terms of the amount of critiques but certainly not in the incredible standard of posts. I suppose I only have myself to blame for resigning as Moderator, which was as it turns out not well thought through,.

I tried the other sites and found them totally lacking in what I need, what a waste of money they were!

Harshad Barve

10-07-2010, 11:18 PM

I am a little dissapointed with Wildlife lately in terms of the amount of critiques but certainly not in the incredible standard of posts. I suppose I only have myself to blame for resigning as Moderator, which was as it turns out not well thought through,.

Totally Agreed

I suppose I only have myself to blame for resigning as Moderator, which was as it turns out not well thought through,.

Though I was regional Mod , but same thoughts here

Hilary Hann

10-07-2010, 11:31 PM

Ken, for interest sakes, what difference does it make if you resigned as moderator or not? It doesn't make any difference to the number of critiques you give or receive, surely? Just interested in what difference it makes to the activity and success of the wildlife forum.

Arthur Morris

10-07-2010, 11:33 PM

Excellent points by Harshad and Hillary :)

Ken Watkins

10-07-2010, 11:39 PM

Ken, for interest sakes, what difference does it make if you resigned as moderator or not? It doesn't make any difference to the number of critiques you give or receive, surely? Just interested in what difference it makes to the activity and success of the wildlife forum.

You know the more I think about it the less clear it becomes, but you are probably correct my presence as Moderator has little effect if any on the number or quality of posts, and I am certainly posting and crtiquing as much as ever, except when I am away.

Harshad Barve

10-07-2010, 11:44 PM

Ken, for interest sakes, what difference does it make if you resigned as moderator or not? It doesn't make any difference to the number of critiques you give or receive, surely? Just interested in what difference it makes to the activity and success of the wildlife forum.

Can't disagree with you but IMHO Mods who have spent tons of time in Africa , Asia and other part of worlds makes huge difference when they comment as MOD.
E.g. On one bird image if I have same thought as Guruji Aka Artie Aka Maestro , everyone will give more weightage to his thoughts

Hilary Hann

10-07-2010, 11:47 PM

I think, unless it was pointed out, the moderator title under the member's name has little relevance except when there is some matter of disagreement between posters, or a matter of forum rules. Some of the finest, most helpful learning critiques I have received came from members who weren't moderators.

Hilary Hann

10-08-2010, 12:01 AM

Harshad, our posts crossed, but I disagree with you to a certain extent. If the information about image quality and technique is concerned, it doesn't matter much if you are a bird photographer out of USA or Australia; or a photographer of only tigers, not cheetahs … if you know good techniques, have artistic ability and knowledge of your craft then you will critique well. Where it becomes problematic is when critiques on animal behaviour and such like are called for. Then a knowledge of the area and those species is a distinct advantage. I don't think the moderator necessarily can be over all these areas, I think the general membership will be a good guide. I don't see that moderators are chosen because they are professional photographers, or highly skilled published photographers, or even highly skilled technical photographers … not all the moderators appear to fit that bill. In some cases, the general membership would appear to have people whose skills and knowledge far outweigh the moderator. Therefore, I don't see that it matters. Arthur Morris' critiques would still be helpful (or annoying … depending on how you see some comments of your own photos :D ) whether he was posting under another user name or his own.
It becomes very easy, very quickly, to determine which members have a good, clear eye and a grasp of what is right and wrong with an image. Providing clear and concise information on how to make it 'better' is not always so easy … and to be honest, not always so well received. Goes back to those egos I mentioned earlier.
This is not to denigrate any moderators, sometimes you need good people in different time zones to help out with forum matters.

Michael Hogan

10-11-2010, 07:24 AM

I knbow I am a bit late in adding my piece to thius thread but I felt that I had to say something. There is one major problem with the site - it's popularity, expecially in the Avian Critique forum, and the lck of willingness of people to add their comments to images. It is something that I was very shy about. I started off in Avian Critique but it was obvious to me that I was not up to that standard. However, the comments were not harsh, even though I probably deserved them to be, and I alwaays learned from them. However, I wnt to the ETL forum and it was there that I learned a vast amount. It was also there that I realised that leaving comments was the best method of learning. You have to examine th eimage and decide why you like it or hate it or whatever. Lance it amazing supportive in ETL and never will say what you post is bad, always saying how to improve it in the nicest way. I have since rejoined Avian Critique with hopefully better images.

On the charge for membership - it is a paultry sum. If you participate in some of the forums then you will definitely get you money back in spades. Just one of Lance's tutorials is well worth the cost but we also get pearls of wisdon, great tips etc from Artie, Dennise, Daniel etc.

I may not be a great bird photographer, or even a good one but I have improved out of all recognition over the past 3 years thanks to Artie's books and all the critiques I have received.

Thanks to all for everything

Michael

Arthur Morris

10-11-2010, 07:28 AM

Hi Michael, Thanks for your more than kind but accurate :) words. Can you figure out how to get your and our message to the masses?

Mark Young

10-13-2010, 11:56 PM

I knbow I am a bit late in adding my piece to thius thread but I felt that I had to say something. There is one major problem with the site - it's popularity, expecially in the Avian Critique forum, and the lck of willingness of people to add their comments to images. It is something that I was very shy about. I started off in Avian Critique but it was obvious to me that I was not up to that standard. However, the comments were not harsh, even though I probably deserved them to be, and I alwaays learned from them. However, I wnt to the ETL forum and it was there that I learned a vast amount. It was also there that I realised that leaving comments was the best method of learning. You have to examine th eimage and decide why you like it or hate it or whatever. Lance it amazing supportive in ETL and never will say what you post is bad, always saying how to improve it in the nicest way. I have since rejoined Avian Critique with hopefully better images.

On the charge for membership - it is a paultry sum. If you participate in some of the forums then you will definitely get you money back in spades. Just one of Lance's tutorials is well worth the cost but we also get pearls of wisdon, great tips etc from Artie, Dennise, Daniel etc.

I may not be a great bird photographer, or even a good one but I have improved out of all recognition over the past 3 years thanks to Artie's books and all the critiques I have received.

Thanks to all for everything

Michael

I'm in pretty much the same boat as Michael. I'm new to the forum and have only been photographing birds for about 3 years. 2 of those with a DLSR and I've found this site to be a great resource of information. The information that's on this site is so helpful, the people encouraging and also very helpful, the quality of images is great, and all of this free for those who choose not to pay for membership. The site is well moderated and most people are extremely well behaved.

Whilst newbies like myself are learning about image composition, technical aspects, bird behaviour etc and whilst our posts and critiques may appear immature in content, but developing, I like the fact that I'm not made to feel like a newbie, and that if there is a fault with my images then people feel free enough to tell me. I know my images are not necessarily nice, but I don't often know why! And that's what I like about this place. I know someone will help or offer advice, and they do it freely too.

I can't understand the negativity towards this site. Like Chris who started this thread, I live in Aust where we don't have anything think like this site here. Nor do we have anything like the lessons you guys put on, though I wish we did.

If I were you blokes in the US, I'ld be saving my pennies to go on one of these trips and milk the minds of these blokes for all they're worth!!
Cause I'ld love it if we had some sort of setup like this over here. And from what I can tell, there is a desire for this level and style of forum and the accompanying workshops to be setup here, just not the desire to be the person to do it.

Robert Amoruso

10-18-2010, 03:00 PM

Mark,

Thanks for your insights and kind words.