Fighting Moorhens - last one

[Ofer Levy]

1D Mark 4, Canon 600 f4 IS, 1/2500, f7.1, iso 640

This is probably my favourite from this series.
Taken in Sydney a few weeks ago.

[Scott Frye]

Great action and I love that claw sticking up -- very intimidating --nice behavior shot

[Phil Ertel]

Hi Ofer
The action in this image is great. The screaming bird on the left and the wing position of the bird on the right are very engaging. The fling water and colors are also quite pleasing. The raised foot makes this one special for me. Very cool! Thanks for sharing.

[Arthur Morris]

Yes, great action. Yes, a perfect EXP with rich blacks with detail, a killer claw pose, and a beautiful near wing position on the bird on our right. Yes, to wonderful d-o-f. Yes to a great image.

Now, if you had your druthers, would you have preferred that the bird on the right not have had its head turned away from the viewer, or would you prefer it as is with the bird's head turned a bit away from us?

Same question for everyone.

[Ofer Levy]

Yes, great action. Yes, a perfect EXP with rich blacks with detail, a killer claw pose, and a beautiful near wing position on the bird on our right. Yes, to wonderful d-o-f. Yes to a great image.

Now, if you had your druthers, would you have preferred that the bird on the right not have had its head turned away from the viewer, or would you prefer it as is with the bird's head turned a bit away from us?

Same question for everyone.

Thanks for your comment and kind words Artie.
As to your question - I seriously think it doesn't matter. With all the action that is going on in this image a few more or a few less degrees in the HA will not change a thing. The birds are looking at each other and this is very clear in the image and this is what counts.

[Troy Lim]

Ofer,

Love the action in this shot, exposure is awesome as always.
As for the HA, I do think that if it is a fewer degrees towards me, as a viewer, it would grab my attention even more. With that being said, it is still a great image.

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks for your comment and kind words Artie. As to your question - I seriously think it doesn't matter. With all the action that is going on in this image a few more or a few less degrees in the HA will not change a thing. The birds are looking at each other and this is very clear in the image and this is what counts.

YAW. The kind words are well deserved. But you skillfully avoided my question which was "Which would you prefer?" Given a choice, I cannot fathom how you or anyone else could honestly state that it does no matter. What I am seeing is that the right hand bird is looking well to the right of its combatant....

Thanks to Troy for commenting. I would welcome comments from others.

[Ofer Levy]

What I am seeing is that the right hand bird is looking well to the right of its combatant.....

I think you should check your eyes Artie....:D

[Arthur Morris]

Again, I ask other for an honest opinion from others the matter. Your responses smack of someone who simply wished to protect their turf.

[Ofer Levy]

Dear Artie, do you really think I need to protect this image?.....It was you who wrote the following: "Yes, great action. Yes, a perfect EXP with rich blacks with detail, a killer claw pose, and a beautiful near wing position on the bird on our right. Yes, to wonderful d-o-f. Yes to a great image. "
Why do you think that anyone who doesn't think like you is being dishonest? I still think that this whole obsession with head angle is becoming a bit silly. This image is a perfect example to this. I promise you that not that many people other than yourself would think that a few degrees of a HA this way or the other would make this image better....;)

[Arthur Morris]

No, I do not think that you need to protect the image. But by refusing to answer my direct question, "Would you prefer this head angle or one where the far bird had it's head turned a bit more towards you?" that you are protecting your position, that head angle does not matter. And again I ask folks which they would prefer. I promise you that if anyone but you answered that question honestly they would prefer that the far bird had its head turned a bit more towards the viewer.

[Kiran Poonacha]

Loved the light, action and that clawing feet with the open beak adds very well...

[Stu Bowie]

Superb action Ofer, and the extended claw puts this over the top. With regards to HA's in this, as both are avoiding being scratched with claws, their heads could have been at any angle, and still worked. Yes, in a perfect world, if you pressed the shutter with both HA's towards you, it would have won 1st prize. Still works for me as is.

[Lance Peters]

Love the action - IMHO -If it were mine and I would be happy to take it as is - I would have been wishing for a little head turn towards me.
Not an image killer by any means - would have had the shutter firing full speed and had the fingers crossed.

[John Chardine]

Ofer- No need to get hot here. Everyone agrees the image is a keeper. The question essentially boils down to how it could be improved RELATIVE to this high standard to begin with. It is obvious that a better version of the image would have the right hand bird's head turned a little CCW, but this issue takes little away from the image as presented.

[Roger Clark]

Ofer,
Great image. I looked at the image and formed an independent opinion before reading any post. My first impression was, Wow, look at that claw! Then I thought what a neat image that could be captioned several ways. Here is a thought, for example, because the claw seems so large, it is almoast as if it is from a 3rd bird. So one could caption it like the two birds are surprised to see their friend's claw rising, "Oh look. there's Fred!" (Hey, I haven't had my coffee yet--just got up, went outside and took a few images.) Then I thought I wish the bird on the right had its head tilted toward us a little. But overall, the HA is minor IMO, and the image still has tremendous impact.

Congratulations,

Roger

[denise ippolito]

I think we are all entitled to our own opinions regarding what makes an image pleasing. When we put our image up for critique we need to be aware that others may not feel the same way about the image as we do. Allowing their voice to be heard is what makes a healthy discussion forum. Once we close our minds to others thoughts and opinions we can no longer learn. I have learned a lot from this forum and I see no reason why these discussions can't be handled more calmly. I appreciate both sides of the discussion and feel that both are offering valuable information.:)


I almost forgot my critique of the image.
Outstanding action captured. I love the claw like foot, open mouth and raised wing. The water splash is fantastic. I do wish the birds head on the right were facing a bit more towards us. It is not a deal killer for me, This is still a wonderful shot that I would LOVE to have it in my files.

[Robert Amoruso]

Honest opinion. If I had my druthers (had to look that one up), I would like to have had the HA of the right bird more towards me. As I have photographed these types of fights before (Coots and Moorhens), I just machine gun it and hope for the best on the HA. If I get one that has both heads right and the feet action is good, that's my keeper. If not, I pick the best of the bunch.

[David Pugsley]

I'll tackle the HA issue. For me, yes, the image would be far better if the HA of the right bird was more towards his opponent and thus the viewer. That said, under the circumstances, I think you have to take what you get as this is one of those "spray and pray" situations. I'd be happy with the resultant image and would not bin it but, sure, it could be better.

[Lloyd Spitalnik]

I've always said that there's no such thing as a perfect image because it's always waiting for the next opportunity. Ofer, this is an excellent image.. Would it be better with the slight head turn on the right bird. Of course, but so what! This isn't a posed shot. It's hard enough to get this type of image in the first place. Artie's critque is right on the money but so is the image as is. Just my very humble opinion.

[Rod Warnock]

Superbly captured, Ofer !! The intensity of the attack by the left bird, plus splash and the slight avoidance maneuver of the right bird all add to the complete image it is.
The right bird is engaged in heavy combat and that says it all. A great behavioural study.
Best regards
Rod Warnock

[Jim Neiger]

Way cool image, Ofer! I think I would have called it "The Claw". Fantastic action with the huge foot and spray everywhere. I also like the outstretched wing of the bird on the right and the open bill of the bird on the left. You nailed the exposure as well. Great job capturing the moment.

Do I think this is a great image as is? Yes.

Do I think it would be even better if the bird on the right had its head turned more toward the viewer? Yes.

Do I think the HA is an important factor when evaluating this image? Only if I'm comparing it to other outstanding images of this quality.

[Bill Jobes]

Ofer, congratulations on a fabulous image. My initial reaction to the photo was as Roger's -- what a claw !

Then I looked at both combatants and was immediately struck by the HA of the right bird. As air leaking from a pinhole in a balloon, the passive HA took a bit of life out of the photograph.

What first struck me as a 'great' photo, was now a 'really good' photo.

I've learned to appreciate Artie's wisdom on HA.

Full disclosure here: At first, I was not a big fan of the attention to that detail.

But I've since come to a real appreciation of how that seemingly subtle factor, at least to casual viewers, is very often the visual line of demarcation between 'good' and 'great.' I am grateful to Artie for being our mentor on that.

Looking at your image, as would a photo editor (which I've done for daily newspapers in a past life), and hypothetically seeing it side-by-side with the very next frame, where the bird on the right was 'cheating' slightly to the left -- no question which photo would be in the newspaper.

Your photo as stated above is a wonderful action image. To my eye, it's only a few HA degrees from perfection. :)

[Juan Aragonés]

I am sure that we all agree that subtle differences in a few degrees of head turn between two frames of the same series may help photographers (the author of the image, a magazine´s editor, a contest´s judge, etc) to choose which one is the best. This can be done, of course, if there are two or more similar images to compare (no matter if they are from the same series or even if they are from different authors). But, in this case I really think that a few additional degrees in the head turn (and we are talking about an almost unnoticeable or really, really small variation of head turn) of the bird would not change the overall perception that this photograph produce on the observer and would not increase (in a significant way) the high quality of the image.
In my opinion this one is an outstanding image and I would not worry for a subtle detail like a few degrees of turn head ;)

[Arthur Morris]

Juan et al. As I stated above, this is an excellent image. All that I asked Ofer was if he had a choice, would he have preferred that the bird on the right had its head turned a bit more towards us. To me that was pretty much a no-brainer. Rather than answer the simple question Ofer chose to take his ball and go home (that after I deleted an offensive post of his).

So I will ask you Juan, if you had your druthers, would you have preferred an image where the bird on the right had its head turned a bit more towards us?

[Gyorgy Szimuly]

My reply is, no. Why should always a bird eye-contact the photographer. Of course it is better looking for a posing bird but capturing a behavioural interaction, like this, we cannot expect it. Just different conditions. This image is well captured and others said everything. I would avoid to pick a nit. There's any for me. :2eyes2:

Cheers, Szimi

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks Gyorgy, I am not suggesting that we should expect it, just suggesting what would be ideal.

So let me get this straight, with this image, if you had a choice, would you rather that the bird be facing slightly away from us or would you rather that it be looking directly at the bird? (I was in no way suggesting that the bird look at us.)

[Gyorgy Szimuly]

I understand your point but again I believe if the bird would look at the photographer the action would stop. :D

Szimi

[Arthur Morris]

Gyorgy, With all due respect, I believe that your English is good enough to answer my question. I stated several times that I do not want the bird looking at me. As captured, the bird on our right is looking to the right of the bird on the left (and thus its head is angled away from the viewer). I am asking, if you had a choice would you prefer that the bird on our right be looking away from us just a bit (as in the captured image), or would you rather it be looking at the other bird? It is a rather simple question and I believe that there is only one sane answer :)

[Mike Tracy]

FWIW I think this image would be better seeing both of the feet raised in battle but it seems like folks are dwelling on the HA. The head angle as captured is akin to a boxer preparing to deflect a blow. I really thinks it's too subjective to determine if a few degrees this way would have any positive impact for most people though ideally if it were mine I probably would wish for it.

I also think sometimes we don't see the forest for the trees in the HA debate. I seldom enter contests but have been one of the fortunate very few to have had 3 images included in Natures Best the past two years. In two of the three images my subjects ( a bear and a heron ) have been looking away. The visual impact in both of them would have been lost if I had waited for what is "accepted" as the ideal HA.

Not my intention to add fuel to this fire or offend anyones position Just stating my own.