More help with technique/composition?

[Deborah Hanson]

What I need more than anything is help with technique/composition.
After taking a photograph, looking at it I am not sure what I should've done or could've done to make the photo better.
Maybe I am looking for something that is not possible to get from a forum - in other words, I need to work through it. I am in an area of the country (North Dakota) that doesn't seem to have much photography support - or I haven't found it.

I feel that I am still making the same mistakes that I began with a year or so ago. I don't want to go out and take images and then come back and figure out which one worked. I would like to take the photo correctly in the field (I understand that there are situations that you can't just think out - you need to react).

Is there a way that the forum moderators could offer more in-depth support, maybe with a special forum with additional charges (I realize that time spent on this would need to be compensated)?

I am not trying to take away from the comments on the photographs that are submitted. They are very helpful in showing what people look for in images - (eye contact, sharpness, etc).

Thanks
Deb

[john j. henderson]

Deb

What is your preferred subjects. Do you photograph animals, birds or landscapes?

[Fabs Forns]

Deb, is your subjects are birds, I suggest getting Artie's CD, from the online store, where he covers everything from exposure to composition and a great number of techniques. You will not be sorry.
His teaching will work for wildlife too.

https://store.birdsasart.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=84

[John Chardine]

Deb- I really think there are some fine resources on BPN already that can help you a great deal. This one is really good:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30

Artie Morris' Art of Bird Photography II is excellent and highly recommended.

I would also suggest you start looking at images on BPN and what people say about them. Pretty soon you will start to see some common denominators in the comments, which you can then take out into the field with you and apply. Also commenting on images yourself will help a lot. We encourage everyone to comment/critique images. Another point- you get better by practicing and the more images you make the better you will get. Finally, I would recommend posting specific questions on BPN, to which you will receive lots of useful answers.

This is what I did over two years ago when I discovered BPN and it worked for me.

[Deborah Hanson]

I enjoy birds - I usually sit for a length of time watching behavior, which has been an enjoyable part of starting up photography again (first a photographer, second a birder - tho). But am very interested in landscape as well.

Deb

[john j. henderson]

Deb
Generally, there are many compositional guidelines; these will help
Rule of Thirds, divide the scene into three equal pieces vertically and horizontally-each place the lines cross is a power point. If helps to have your area of primary interest in one of the power points
Leading lines and diagonals, diagonals help lead the eye through the photos and to an area of interest. In landscapes, roads and fences make excellent leading lines. With birds, branches can help and flying birds on a diagonal helps.
Color and contrast, our eye is drawn to color and contrast. An Arctic fox on a snow hill with a dark background will draw attention than a Arctic fox on snow hill with white background.
there are many more. Hope this helps

[Deborah Hanson]

Thanks all.
John-
Yes, information helps but I am thinking that there is much to learn and incorporate into one photograph.
I come from non-art background and I can usually learn/make techs work but maybe the 'photographer's eye' is missing.

Thanks again

[john j. henderson]

Deb; please post one of your images here that you like and we can discuss specific compositional issues with this one image. I believe this will help more than discussing general compositional guidelines.

[Deborah Hanson]

Unfortuately, most of the time I find the snowys 100 feet up. We had a freezing fog during the night. The sun was just coming through the fog from the east. I had to shoot with the sun off my left shoulder. I don't think I am compensating for the sun (?). Also the crop is from the sides and top - not the bottom - maybe more trees would have made the image work better? Cropped to get the bird in upper left but had problems because I wanted to include the frost coming off the tree.
Techs - ISO 250, 1/1250, f/8, at 550mm. I'm not sure how to check, but I probably had EV -0.3. There are times I will spot meter on the owl - probably not in this instance.
Also, used D700 with 200-400+1/4TC.
Thanks
Deb

[Jay Gould]

First and foremost, congratulations on spending the best $20 you could possibly spend to further your photographic education. Now, I will tell you have to improve and spend more money! ;)

A year ago I was just like you regading photography and a "photographer's eye".

I took four approaches because I wanted to shorten my learning curve and as a consequence make it steeper and quicker.

1. I joined BPN and purchased both of Artie's books - there are great sections in both on composition although not specifically aimed at landscapes.

2. I purchased lots of books including landscape photography books and STUDIED them. I have attached a list of books I have on photography. The list was easier than typing all of the names as all of my books have been purchased, destroyed (I have the binder removed), and scanned. I live in a caravan/trailer - no room for a library. Specifically regarding landscape: Shaw and Fitzharris are second to none.

3. Workshops - ND is a hop, skip, and a jump from Michigan in one direction and Montana/Wyoming in the other direction. I have no idea who you are or what you do since there is nothing in your profile. If you can, schedule a week in N. Michigan with Rod Planck, or there are several excellent professional photographers here on BPN that run workshops out of Yellowstone all seasons of the year.

4. I post images and ask lots and lots and lots of questions. Do not be afraid to post even what you think is not so hot - it is a learning experience, and in the landscape forum there are some excellent moderators who give amazing amounts of their time to help everyone.

Again, welcome Member to BPN.

[john j. henderson]

These are my opinions about composition. Others will differ, I am sure. First, let me say getting a Snowy Owl photo is awesome.

The sky at top is nearly wasted space. I would prefer the bird to be flying into the photo, not out. I like the branches but they intersect the bird and become distracting. I think I would prefer this as a vertical with the bird near the top and more branches at the bottom, maybe the bird in the upper right power point area of a vertical. I like the contrast between the white bird and the blue background-the bird grabs my eye. I would like a bit better if the wings were up and not down, I like the power stroke for powerful birds (wings up but beginning to pump down). The owl is looking down but I can not see the area the owl is focusing upon, that is a little distracting to me; as a vertical with the bird up near the top, I would have more of a sense that the bird was flying into the photo and what the birds was flying toward. I like the branches on the right, the dusting is beautiful but they do not add to this photo.

[john j. henderson]

Jay, I like your idea of scanning the books, may I contact you for more information. I need to reduce my weight before moving to Russia

[Jay Gould]

Jay, I like your idea of scanning the books, may I contact you for more information. I need to reduce my weight before moving to Russia

Bro, of course you can contact me either on BPN or by pvt email. That is what BPN is all about!

One of the benefits of scanning the books is that here I am in Lima, Peru, and I have my entire reference library with me!!

[Rob Miner]

Hi Deb,

Heres a different prospective. Process, crop & print the above photograph every way you can think of and put them on a wall you have to notice regularly. After a while, you will shun some of them. Take those down and leave the others on the wall. Within a short time your own discernment will guide you. After that process has been completed, submit the remaining one to BPN for critique.

You might say to start with, "If I don't know, how do I make my own critique?" No doubt you have been making these decisions all your life, such as make up, boy friends, etc. Its a process, but I think you will enjoy.

Welcome to the journey.

Rob...............

[Tony Whitehead]

Bro, of course you can contact me either on BPN or by pvt email. That is what BPN is all about!

One of the benefits of scanning the books is that here I am in Lima, Peru, and I have my entire reference library with me!!
Jay, for new purchases it is worth seeing if Amazon has a Kindle edition as they are readable on a PC, iPhone or iPad and no destruction or scanning needed.:)

[Grace Scalzo]

You know what I think? Do these three things....

#1 -Get out there and create images.

#2-Then bring them here and get involved. (By that I mean, post your images, critique others, read everything you can, look at other's techs, etc.)

And last but most important....

#3- Have fun. Enjoy the process and recognize that it takes time to be able to implement your vision (and by time I mean a lifetime of learning; modifying, creating, refining, etc.)

(And you thought my three things were going to be magic ;))

[Deborah Hanson]

John-
Thank you so much. This is exactly the type of critique/information that I find very helpful and prefer.
Jay-
Thanks for the list. Since research is my background, I feel more comfortable in the 'read to learn' environment.
Rob-
I will try this as well - but one of my photographs that I like the most wouldn't be considered good because the eye contact isn't there. (I could paste an eye on the side of the bird's head :D ).

Again, comments are appreciated.
Deb

[Deborah Hanson]

Grace-
Thanks for encouragement.
Mostly I have really enjoyed the time I spend with the camera. I have been able to watch eagles feed their young in the nest (right under the nest) and watched as they took their first flight. I've had a hummingbird come up to the camera lens because of curiousity - and no, I was too surprised to take a photo. Observing the playfulness/acrobatic flights of short-eared owls is worth sitting out at the Slough in 15 below. Snowy owls are amazing.
But every winter brings different birds (this year the short-ears irrupted and there were no redpolls at all after 50+ in my yard last winter) and I get frustrated that I will miss the opportunity if I don't get them photographed right this year.

Deb

[Grace Scalzo]

Deb, I think that we all feel the frustration of missed opportunities, at least I do. But that's why we keep on getting out there and trying to make the most of the moment, realizing that sometimes things work out and sometimes they don't. I was photographing a sap sucker with two top photographers one day, they fired off about 10 images when he landed, looked at their histograms and both had cooked him. It happens. What I'm trying to concentrate more on these days is making sure that I am prepared, both with my camera settings and mentally. And yep, I still mess up. Alot. Birds are hard. They are small, fast, and they fly.

[Jay Gould]

Jay, for new purchases it is worth seeing if Amazon has a Kindle edition as they are readable on a PC, iPhone or iPad and no destruction or scanning needed.:)

Tony, I have been looking very hard at the Kindle.

The problem is that there are so many negative reviews on Amazon on how fragile the screen is that I hesitate given our lifestyle. Right now we just packed a dozen junk reading books for the jump from Lima to Nazcar to find the aliens. I would love to carry two Kindles...........

I still wouldn't use Kindle for my research texts; I like them in the computer.

[William Malacarne]

Jay
Kindle for your PC.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=ms_sbrspot_0?ie=UTF8&docId=1000426311&pf_rd_p=98731122&pf_rd_s=center-22&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0015T963C&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=05ZN86R92ABJHC85NFQ7

Bill

[Jay Gould]

Thanks Bill, I will be waiting for Kindle 3 or something better than Kindle 2 - it is amazing how much you learn when you read the 1* reviews instead of the 5* reviews.

[john j. henderson]

Deb

For landscape work, look at the photos of Jeff Ripple http://www.jeffripple.com/onlinegallery.cfm

Jeff has many photos of everyday landscapes done very well. I like his use of composition, color, leading lines, water motion blurs and texture.

[Tony Whitehead]

Thanks Bill, I will be waiting for Kindle 3 or something better than Kindle 2 - it is amazing how much you learn when you read the 1* reviews instead of the 5* reviews.
Jay, My point was that you don't need a Kindle - you can just read the files on your PC as you do with your scanned pages. I think that was what Bill's link was pointing to. I read kindle on my iPhone which is not bad.

[Jay Gould]

Deb

For landscape work, look at the photos of Jeff Ripple http://www.jeffripple.com/onlinegallery.cfm

Jeff has many photos of everyday landscapes done very well. I like his use of composition, color, leading lines, water motion blurs and texture.

John, thanks for the reference - his images are beautiful and there is so much to learn and gather ideas from others when you take the time to browse through various websites.

I have a group of websites that I regularly look at - Artie started me looking at websites on a regular basis when he told me his special five that give him inspiration:


“The only masters that I have studied are Shaw and Wolfe and Lanting and Planck and more recently folks like Rouse, Van Rooyen and Alan Murphy.”


Deb, the websites of the moderators, and Members whose images "grab you" here on BPN are another source to utilize to further your education.

[Jay Gould]

Jay, My point was that you don't need a Kindle - you can just read the files on your PC as you do with your scanned pages. I think that was what Bill's link was pointing to. I read kindle on my iPhone which is not bad.

Senior moments result in sometimes slow on the uptake - I will now see what references are available in the Kindle library.

However, along the same line, for those that have a Kindle, take a look at:

http://books.google.com/ - over a million free books

http://kindleworld.blogspot.com/2009/08/million-free-google-books-in-epub-for.html - links to programs that will convert ePub files to Kindle files. I know several Kindle owners using Calibre http://calibre-ebook.com/

[john j. henderson]

Jay, I met Jeff a few years ago. He seems to live a simple life but produces some very fine images.

[Bob Decker]

Thanks all.
John-
Yes, information helps but I am thinking that there is much to learn and incorporate into one photograph.
I come from non-art background and I can usually learn/make techs work but maybe the 'photographer's eye' is missing.

Thanks again

Great book for composition... and compositional concepts apply regardless of the type of photography you're doing... is Michael Freeman's "The Photographer's Eye: Composition and Design for Better Digital Photos." For bird photography technique you cannot beat "Birds as Art II."

[Jay Gould]

I have received a few PMs asking me about scanning books so here is the story - it really is ok to ask these questions openly!

Actually it is quite simple and since I have received so many PMs asking me this question here is the answer:
<O:p</O:p
The books in the list: I take them to office works where they have a proper paper guillotine and then cut off the back just thick enough to remove the binder. Then while watching a television program I do the mindless task of scanning the book page by page in a flat bed scanner. I used to have a sheet feeder scanner as part of my printer; however, it died and the newer ones do not have the wonderful features of the days gone by.<O:p</O:p
<O:p</O:p

I use a Canon LiDE 200. Be aware that while the text is all there and very readable, the scanned color images do not have the same high quality res as the original.

I save each chapter as a separate pdf and when read I add DONE to the file title. Since it is a pdf you have all of the highlight and other tools available.
<O:p</O:p

For me, living in a box on wheels where I do not have any library storage space the quality of image compromise or nothing is a no brainer.<O:p</O:p

[john j. henderson]

Thanks Jay, sorry I did not get my PM to you yesterday. Sounds like a laborious process but does save space and weight. I have a scanner with a sheet feeder but that would only copy one side of the page; your technique seems to be better as you get the pages scanned in the proper order; unless you had a higher quality sheet feeder that would also flip the pages

[Deborah Hanson]

Bob-
I just got a gift from my sister and brother-in-law - Freeman's book "Photographer's Eye". I look forward to reading it.

Everyone else-
Thanks again for input.

As an aside - I have the Kindle app on my iPod Touch and really like the convenience.

Deb

[john j. henderson]

Deb, I wish you the best; keep shooting everyday and keep reviewing your images to learn from your own work. It takes time but it does happen. I find, the more mentally I am involved when I am shooting, the better my results.

If I go out and just shoot what is available, I am usually disappointed. If I go out, study the sun angles and the flight patterns, study the backgrounds and plan my shots, I am usually pleased.

It really helps to develop your style as a photographer. Mr. Morris teaches "point your shadow at the bird", frontal lighting. He does excellent work. I prefer the light a bit off angle because of it gives better shadow definition (as Chas says, light illuminates, shadow defines), of course, this is just my preference-does not make another technique wrong, just my preference. With the light a bit off angle (like coming over my right shoulder), I am better able to plan which shots I want to take.