BIF technique question

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

Hello Gang, I'd like to run some specs/ details, and hear from you on your ideas.
BIF
Handheld
Canon 7d
Canon 2.8 70-200 L
Flash 580 exII beamer
Most if not all BIF shoots are not tack sharp
Here's the specs.
1250/sec, ISo 400 5.6F Manual exposure(looks great), AI servo mode, however shot in mode 1 IS, instead of mode 2 IS(accidental, meant mode 2)
ISo 400
I Notice that the focus is not tack sharp... looks like motion.I'll dig a picture and post it later, as i hit the "Big D" on most of the photos already.
Static images look good amd sharp. Ruling out the lens, and camera which use single spot center AF.
One other idea the AF assit point was used, instead of single point AF, with the sensitivity down one click.(maybe it's picking up bkg)
TIA
Don

[Doug Brown]

Are you using a tripod or hand holding? How big are your subjects in the frame? Why are you using a flash? The AF mode shouldn't cause your shots to be OOF. And your settings seem pretty reasonable. I'd be interested in seeing a complete image reduced to 1024 pixels wide along with a 100% crop of the unprocessed image to give me a better idea of what you're talking about.

[Daniel Cadieux]

1250/sec, ISo 400 5.6F Manual exposure(looks great), AI servo mode, however shot in mode 1 IS, instead of mode 2 IS(accidental, meant mode 2)


I'm not sure if this means it was accidental that you wrote mode 2 instead of mode 1 in your description, or if it was accidental that you left it in mode 1 for panning....

In any case, you'll definitely want to use mode 2 for panning birds in flight - mode 2 is designed especially for that. Even IS turned off will give you better results (with proper technique) than leaving it on mode 1 for tracking moving subjects. Mode 1 is for static subjects, hence your great results for those types of images.

What type of birds are you trying to photograph in flight? 1/1250s. is normally enough for larger flying birds such as herons, geese, eagles, cranes, pelicans, etc... but if you are trying for smaller faster birds then higher SS would be advisable.

[Sid Garige]

Don,

Where is the focus point (little red square) in your image? Even if you are using multi-point focus system, your light room should indicate your active AF point.

-Sid

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

guys thks, yes handheld only.
Mode 1 was left on accidently, instead of mode 2,
Sid good idea, i'm not suere how to activate that function in lr, but i'll look for it when i get home...does photoshop do this as well... thks don

[arash_hazeghi]

Please post an example where focus is not sharp with superimposed AF sensor box so we can try to guess what was going on. Canon DPP sw can show the location of active AF sensor.


Hello Gang, I'd like to run some specs/ details, and hear from you on your ideas.
BIF
Handheld
Canon 7d
Canon 2.8 70-200 L
Flash 580 exII beamer
Most if not all BIF shoots are not tack sharp
Here's the specs.
1250/sec, ISo 400 5.6F Manual exposure(looks great), AI servo mode, however shot in mode 1 IS, instead of mode 2 IS(accidental, meant mode 2)
ISo 400
I Notice that the focus is not tack sharp... looks like motion.I'll dig a picture and post it later, as i hit the "Big D" on most of the photos already.
Static images look good amd sharp. Ruling out the lens, and camera which use single spot center AF.
One other idea the AF assit point was used, instead of single point AF, with the sensitivity down one click.(maybe it's picking up bkg)
TIA
Don

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

okay guys here's want i found first off, i used DPP to determine that a lot of the time my AFpoint ws not on the bird,or if so , very little of it was.
Second, according to canon, when in the ai servo mode, the moment you depress the shutter, there should be a micro second non panning move on my part. The way i understand it.. i need to allow the camera to track the motion in AI, and not continue to pannfor tht mili-second just as i depress the shutter; unless using single shot. Not sure, i'm understanding this correctly, however it sounds that my motion of panning is causing the off focus less than tack. I'd like to post a pic, but can't figure out how to down size an image here in dpp, with the af point superimposed as well.
After reviewing my pictures, i can clearly se where my af point, had a significant amount of the bkg, example water in it.
Just my thoughts, certainly not blaming the camera, i new it was me, just trying to figure out how to get better. This is another learning curve for sure!
Thks don

[arash_hazeghi]

okay guys here's want i found first off, i used DPP to determine that a lot of the time my AFpoint ws not on the bird,or if so , very little of it was.
Second, according to canon, when in the ai servo mode, the moment you depress the shutter, there should be a micro second non panning move on my part. The way i understand it.. i need to allow the camera to track the motion in AI, and not continue to pannfor tht mili-second just as i depress the shutter; unless using single shot. Not sure, i'm understanding this correctly, however it sounds that my motion of panning is causing the off focus less than tack. I'd like to post a pic, but can't figure out how to down size an image here in dpp, with the af point superimposed as well.
After reviewing my pictures, i can clearly se where my af point, had a significant amount of the bkg, example water in it.
Just my thoughts, certainly not blaming the camera, i new it was me, just trying to figure out how to get better. This is another learning curve for sure!
Thks don

Try this, in DPP choose fit to windows or fit to screen to fit the entire image on your screen, then click "display AF points" to see the active sensor. Hit print screen on keyboard to capture a screen shot, go to Photoshop, click file new and then hit Ctrl+V or pick paste from edit menu. Resize the photo to 1024 pixels and post

[Roger Clark]

I never pause the panning while I'm shooting. I've never had a problem. Here is a 24-frame sequence showing the focus point in each frame and describing my methods, which includes continuous smooth panning (at least as smooth as I could do it) while AF tracks an eagle:
http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/tracking.action.with.autofocus/

Roger

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

Mark, very good tutorial/Article, i stand corrected, no pauses needed. Arash, thks , i'll post this tommorrow, as i need to finish some patient charts tonight. Thk for all of the wisdom guys, learning some cool stuff here!
Sid, thks for your Personal Chat, and sharing techniques.
don

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

Here you go. Thks odn

[Dave Blinder]

Don - This may be a case of simply not getting enough pixels on the bird. For most good detailed bird photos, the subject will occupy 1/4 of the original frame or more.

edit - just looked at what you posted, the whites are toasted. make sure you are exposing for the highlights first. You could probably halve the ISO here.

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

okay, this resembles more like what a lot of the images "af point" show. looks like i'm missing the subject, and do not have enough of the AF point on my subject.25% of square on the bird,and the other 75% plus on BKG, is going to not show sharp images! At least that's what i'm thinking! time, to get back out there, and apply what i've learned.
Don

[Roger Clark]

Don,
You have the AF point on the bird's back. It really should be on the eye. I move the AF sensor to the one I want to be on the eye and give the composition I desire. Then follow the bird with that AF point on the eye as closely as possible.

Roger

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

Hi Roger, yes i agree, once i used "DPP". and saw where my AF sensoe was falling, i understood this was my problem. So the leasson learned, make every effort to put the AF point on the birds head/eye! Which is tough for sure with BIF.
Don

[john j. henderson]

Indeed you have identified the problem. This is one of the advantages of a place like the alligator farm or gatorland-plenty of opportunities to shoot birds in flight. Of course, one of the disadvantages of a place like Gatorland is the changing light conditions. Your birds are relatively low in the water and at Gatorland this can be an area of less light than shooting eye level or up into the sky. So even if you do manual exposure, you will need to change exposure to compensate for the less light level near the water.

Good luck, good to see you this past weekend.

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

John, thks, and a pleasure to meet you, and hang on saturday! Okay, so for another dumb question. I need to Acquire and lock on focus to the head/eye in flight, track, and try to stay as smooth and fluid in panning as possible. :eek:
Also seems like the single point AF might be a better choice, than the AF expansion mode in the 7d.. as i had used last weekend.
Hopefully we can get back together before you leave on your big trip!
Don

[Mike Tracy]

For newcomers and with smaller birds in flight positioning a sensor point on a flying birds eye / head poses challenges on several fronts. In order to have some workable images and to not discourage further development of tracking skills I would suggest taking incremental steps to that end.

For those learning the ropes a few settings will increase the keeper rate. Too often the budding bif photographer feels he needs to shoot wide open or close to because the "great" images he has viewed have been captured in that manner. I would suggest stopping down to at least f/8 or higher to start. That permits some latitude in regards to focus point placement and still achieving relative sharpness across the subject. With todays cameras and noise reduction software available I also say crank up the ISO to achieve the needed shutter speed. To the average viewer noise up to a certain level isn't noticed but everyone can point to a fuzzy picture.

For the novice I think it's critical to accomplish the single objective of consistently producing sharp images of his subjects. A nice creamy back ground from shooting wide open or close to, lack of apparent noise, focus point on the head and pleasing composition can all be steps he takes after getting the hang of just keeping a focus point somewhere on the bird.

[john j. henderson]

Indeed Don

Putting the focusing point on the eye is correct but brings up many additional concerns. The bird must be close enough for the head to nearly fill the focusing point; at that distance you need to make sure you are choosing the correct focusing point because you do not want to clip the wings or tail.

Here is how I choose my BIF shots. I look at the sun angle and determine how the face is best illuminated with the current sun angle. Then I choose my position on the boardwalk and I know which direction the bird will be flying to get this best illumination. I position my chosen sensor so the bird is nearly full frame and the sensor is where I expect the head to be located. Yes, you will miss many other shots but you shots "nail" the birds coming from the best angle.

As you know, you can get 8 gigs of junk or 0.5 gigs of fantastic shots. Being selective helps. It also helps to have two cameras; one for this setup of BIF (like a 7D with 400 f5.6) and another for others shots (like a 600mm on tripod).

With lots more experience, you learn how to quickly change the focus point location, compensation, exposure, flash, etc so one camera setup will work better for many applications.

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

For newcomers and with smaller birds in flight positioning a sensor point on a flying birds eye / head poses challenges on several fronts. In order to have some workable images and to not discourage further development of tracking skills I would suggest taking incremental steps to that end.

For those learning the ropes a few settings will increase the keeper rate. Too often the budding bif photographer feels he needs to shoot wide open or close to because the "great" images he has viewed have been captured in that manner. I would suggest stopping down to at least f/8 or lower to start. That permits some latitude in regards to focus point placement and still achieving relative sharpness across the subject. With todays cameras and noise reduction software available I also say crank up the ISO to achieve the needed shutter speed. To the average viewer noise up to a certain level isn't noticed but everyone can point to a fuzzy picture.

For the novice I think it's critical to accomplish the single objective of consistently producing sharp images of his subjects. A nice creamy back ground from shooting wide open or close to, lack of apparent noise, focus point on the head and pleasing composition can all be steps he takes after getting the hang of just keeping a focus point somewhere on the bird.
Mike, Funny you should bring this up.. first off i was sittng here thinking... ^%$&*^((^$, man this is going to be a "%^*^ %)"; to acquire this skill. Next idea pops in my head, wait a minute.. if the depth of filed is greater, i can begin with some "Forgiveness" room , example higher F-Stop. I really appreciate the advice and time you spend on helping folks develope the necessary skills.

[john j. henderson]

I certainly agree with Mike that will increase your keeper rate with respect to birds in focus. I tried that at Gatorland and I tossed all my shots with the bushes in the background because they were distracting. At Gatorland, the bushes are to close or the water will be to close to use f7.1, f8, etc. Would be much better to practice on the coast at f8, this way the background is far enough away that it will be pleasing at f8

I have seen Artie shooting birds in flight (Gulls) by tossing bread into the air then quickly taking photos. This can be excellent practice to acquire the birds fast.

[Don Hamilton Jr.]

John, ditto that, let's just say 8 gigs went "Bye-Bye" via the delete, however if they weren't sharp, they were history, including "almosts"as it doesn't count either... I'm okay with that, just wish to improve. Like Mr. Sid says, Expereince, and lots of practice!!!!:D
No time to get bored, or comfy in this hobby...:)

[john j. henderson]

John, ditto that, let's just say 8 gigs went "Bye-Bye" via the delete, however if they weren't sharp, they were history, including "almosts"as it doesn't count either... I'm okay with that, just wish to improve. Like Mr. Sid says, Expereince, and lots of practice!!!!:D
No time to get bored, or comfy in this hobby...:)

Exactly. In order for me to make a living at this profession, I find I need to obtain at least five shots every day I shoot to submit to my stock agencies. That helps me stay focused. I know I do not need 8 gigs of junk so I concentrate on getting good keepers. I have also found that shooting burst of shots does not help me; I know the light angle I want and that is where I try to take the photo, usually just two clicks per flyby.

Having a second body with long lens helps my keeper rate also; when two birds get together mating, I just jump to the tripod with the 600mm and boom, they are captured and I am still ready for the next flyby with my camera on my shoulder.

Sid is indeed correct, lots of practice.

[Sid Garige]

I would suggest stopping down to at least f/8 or higher to start. That permits some latitude in regards to focus point placement and still achieving relative sharpness across the subject. With todays cameras and noise reduction software available I also say crank up the ISO to achieve the needed shutter speed. To the average viewer noise up to a certain level isn't noticed but everyone can point to a fuzzy picture.


You made a very nice point here Mike. Especially if bird is against blue sky there is no reason to shoot wide open.

[arash_hazeghi]

John, thks, and a pleasure to meet you, and hang on saturday! Okay, so for another dumb question. I need to Acquire and lock on focus to the head/eye in flight, track, and try to stay as smooth and fluid in panning as possible. :eek:
Also seems like the single point AF might be a better choice, than the AF expansion mode in the 7d.. as i had used last weekend.
Hopefully we can get back together before you leave on your big trip!
Don


Hey Don,
Agree with Mike, use single AF point, exapnsion will grab BG unless bird is against sky. Set the priority to main focus point proiroty for large birds and try to keep the point on the bird. Don't try the head you will miss, try the body or neck and close down to f/8 to cover dof. Egrets are not very difficult to track! but you will get some OOF shots in a sequnece, just try and hope for the best!



Good luck

[Bill Coatney]

Don't know what distances are for your shots but you may find this helpful as to what your margin of error is for
f5.6 or f8 and at different distances

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

[john j. henderson]

At this particular site (Gatorland) that Don was shooting, generally-f8 is way to much dof because the bushes are not far in distance. Of course, shooting against sky will not matter but shooting straight out-it is best to do less dof, f5.6 is good but f4 is better.

Nevertheless, I agree, for learning BIF, f8 is great.