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Arthur Morris
11-11-2009, 10:59 AM
I was walking along a narrow path next to the lagoon. About 50 yards ahead of me there were two American Oystercatchers foraging. The only problem was that 35 yards ahead of me a photographer lay on his belly photographing the pair. They were catching big worms and the light was lovely… What to do? The guy on the wet sand was facing away and was not aware that I was there. If I called to him (to ask if I could join him) I risked scaring the birds away. So I stood there for 30 minutes and watched enviously. Finally I decided that I would join him by starting my crawl from way back so as not to flush the birds.

I advanced slowly a few yards, remaining well outside of this species usual circle of fear. I slowly and carefully got down on one knee and the birds did not notice me, but as I lowered myself to the prone position, one of the birds (to my dismay) screamed its strident alarm call. Both birds leaned forward and took flight. I felt absolutely terrible and was about to explain that I had waited for half an hour when the photographer turned towards me and exclaimed, “Artie, it’s great to see you!” Then Tim Fitzharris (friend, well-known professional nature photographer, and one of the folks who inspired me early on) reached into an upper pocket, grabbed his walkie-talkie, raised his wife (who was in their small motor home nearby with their son Jesse), and said, “Joy, you would not believe whom I met while crawling in the mud.”

Folks are usually not so glad to see you when you scare their subjects away.

You are walking down a desolate beach when you see a photographer working a beautiful Reddish Egret, a species you have dreamed of photographing. What to do? First off, as we saw in the example above, you need to stay well back. If you opt to leave the photographer alone with their subject, be sure to give both a wide berth while passing them. Many photographers think, “I will be polite and walk around this situation,” and then they choose a route that flushes the bird (or especially, the flock of birds; it is usually easier to approach a single bird than it is to approach a flock: scare one, scare all…) As a general rule, plan your route by doubling the distance that you think necessary to avoid flushing the subject(s).

You have another option if the photographer is aware of your presence. You can then ask as quietly as possible or gesture by pointing appropriately to indicate “Can I join you?” If they nod or assent, you need to be especially careful as to how you make your approach. First, you must consider your route. Approaching from directly behind the photographer is almost always best. You can actually hide behind the person who was there first as you make your approach. If the photographer is standing, you need to keep the front leg of your tripod low; it is often best to carry your tripod in front of you (rather than on your shoulder). And you need to move slowly, very slowly. I am often amazed at folks who think that “slowly” means to walk as if you were in a supermarket and late for dinner… If you are walking through shallow water or muck or algae, listen to your footsteps. By doing so and placing each foot down carefully you can make your approach much less obtrusive.

If the photographer is kneeling you need to get on your knees while you are well back and then make your approach slowly. If the photographer is down on his belly, you need to get down on your belly, again, while you are well back, and crawl your way in. Walking right up to a photographer who is either kneeling or crawling is unconscionable. In all cases your number one concern must be to avoid flushing the subject or the flock.

If there is only one flock of birds in sight, and there are several photographers already in position, then you have a bit more freedom; you can approach carefully without asking, but again, you need to take great care to avoid flushing the flock. There are many grey areas here… In some situations, as with an obviously tame bird, you can simply approach without much concern. An example might be a fisherman-friendly Great Blue Heron that is used to being in close proximity to humans. As with all aspects of photography, knowing your subject is of tantamount importance. If I came across someone photographing a Horned Lark while lying flat on the grass I would never even consider approaching as this species is notoriously flighty.

If you encounter a tour group that is photographing the only birds on the beach, then joining them would—in my opinion—be appropriate. If, however, they are tossing fish to attract the birds, then it might be inappropriate to join them unless you ask or are invited to do so. An option would be to take a position well behind the group while using a longer lens. And, by the way, if you are a member of a tour group, the restrictions on approaching birds or animals being photographed by another member of the group are greatly relaxed. That said, be sure to move slowly and to get low if need be. And if you are a member of a tour group, it is imperative that you be doubly considerate of other photographers who are not part of your group.

(At Homer a few years ago I spent more than $1,400 on fish for the Bald Eagles; herring is a healthy eagle snack. Many photographers, certainly more than a dozen, followed my group around the Spit as if they were members of the group. They joined right in, often getting in front of the folks in my group. Though I did not say a word—except to those who carelessly stepped in front of others—I firmly believe that their behavior was inappropriate. When other folks are paying for a service, it’s rude to intrude.)

In all group situations, it is imperative to be aware of the position of the others in the group. If someone is looking through their viewfinder at a subject, you are not free to walk in front of them as you please. To do so is inconsiderate. You can either walk behind them or, you can ask them if it would be OK for you to pass. When I want to get by someone quickly, I often stand just outside the field of view and say “Say when…” implying that they should let me know when it is OK to pass.

If you want to walk in front of someone who is changing teleconverters or chatting with a friend then you can do so with impunity. I once saw a woman who was removing a teleconverter at the Venice Rookery berate another photographer for walking in front of her tripod. She was screaming quite loudly. If you are photographing with a group, and you opt to stay well back from the subject or the flock while everyone else is photographing the same subjects from much closer range, it is best and correct for you to adjust your position in response to the folks up front changing their positions. I have seen folks photographing from hundreds of yards away chastise other photographers who were working a tame subject from much closer range. This is wrong. If you choose to stay well back, you are the one who needs to move a bit (assuming that you were not there first)…

If you have worked hard to get close to a great subject or a flock of birds (working the edge of a flock is usually best…), be sure to exit as carefully as you approached so as not to disturb the birds. And that is true whether you are by yourself or with a large group. I have –countless times in a variety of situations—seen a selfish photographer who is finished working a bird or a group of birds simply stand up when they were done thus flushing the bird(s). That is like saying, “I am done and I do not care at all about you or the birds…”

If you are photographing migrant songbirds in wooded areas or edges (such as The Tip at Point Pelee National Park or at the Convention Center on South Padre Island, TX, the guidelines are quite different. If there are several photographers around, it is pretty much open season as the warblers, tanagers, vireos, and the rest of the cast are usually intent on feeding and are pretty much oblivious to our movements. Be sure, however, to move slowly, to be fairly quiet, and to avoid cutting in front of others. In such situations the birds move to the next bush or fly away pretty much when they are ready to… On the other hand, if there is a single photographer in the woods working a thrush—they are usually quite skittish, it is usually be best to take another path and search for your own bird. Another option would be to stand quietly and hope that the bird moves towards your position.

Here are some guidelines when photographing from your vehicle on a refuge tour route (like Bosque del Apache NWR) or a shoreline with vehicle access (like East Beach DeSoto Par, St. Petersburg, FL. If the car in front of you is close to a skittish subject, it is best to either give them a few minutes with the subject before trying to get into position, or, if possible, to pass them without scaring off the subject. If in doubt, it is best to give them a few minutes with the subject before you attempt to go by them. If you are sure that the bird or animal is tame, you can approach at any time. When you do approach, do so slowly and with extreme care. It is best to approach subjects with your telephoto lens in place on the window; raising the lens and sticking it out the window once you are close to the subject will often frighten it away. Here’s another fine point: if you position your vehicle in front of the car that was on the scene first and the animal moves towards your position, you are not obligated to move your vehicle. If the other driver is savvy, they will simply pull ahead of you and hope—as is often the case—that the subject continues to move in the same direction.

Under no circumstances is it permissible to leave your vehicle and approach a photographer working from their vehicle. At Merritt Island NWR many years ago, I had just pulled up to a huge flock of White Pelicans doing their group feeding thing in a pool right next to the road when a car pulled up behind me. The guy got out with an intermediate telephoto lens and all the birds--that had been catching huge fish--all flew away instantly, about two miles away… And a few days ago at DeSoto I had a group of five American Avocets right outside my car. Another photographer left his vehicle, walked several hundred yards towards my position with his big lens on his shoulder, and scared all the birds away. You gotta love it. When the inevitable occurs, it is fine—if you are comfortable doing so—to let the offender know politely that their behavior was inappropriate. No matter how egregious the offense, screaming or cursing will not help the situation at all (though early in my career I did use that strategy a few times).

It goes without saying that we all must follow the rules when working in controlled areas. If the signs say “Stay on the Path,” then we must stay on the path. If the sign says “Area Closed,” then we must not enter. To do otherwise gives all photographers a black mark. (At present, because of the actions of a relatively few, many refuge managers consider all photographers criminals.) If you encounter another photographer breaking the rules you might consider informing them as politely as possible that their behavior is improper. If the other photographer ignores your request, it is best to move on. You might consider jotting down a description or better yet, a license plate number, and letting the authorities know what you observed. Best case would be to photograph the offender in action and send those to the authorities. When doing so you are—in my opinion—obligated to leave your contact information.

The suggestions above are only guidelines (but they are based on 26+ years of field experience). There are surely lots of grey areas and close calls. At all times it is best to obey the posted rules, to be considerate of others and the subjects that they are photographing, and to remember that no image is worth disregarding the welfare of the creatures that we are photographing.

The above originally appeared in a BAA Bulletin #210 here: http://www.birdsasart.com/bn210.htm (http://www.birdsasart.com/bn210.htm). The text has been slightly revised here. With the growing numbers of folks joining our ranks every day, the above information might be considered required reading…. Folks can subscribe for free via the link on the home page.

Jim Fenton
11-11-2009, 12:48 PM
I agree with everything you've said Artie.

Recently, I've had all too many instances where I've been photographing a particular subject or group of subjects which I've worked my way to or sat around and waited for them to acclimate to me, only to have another photographer or birder (frequently another photographer) walk right up to me and ask me what I'm shooting / watching.

I never used to report others for being blatantly where they shouldn't be but over the years, as I've listened to Refuge personnel, birders, etc., blatantly publicly making their feelings known about nature photographers, I feel I am only helping all of us in the hobby if I report someone. I go out of my way to try and politely tell folks they are where they shouldn't be and many times they listen, however, there are those who just ignore the advice and I then let the law enforcement personnel educate them accordingly.

Tony Whitehead
11-11-2009, 01:07 PM
Great piece, Artie. It's all just common sense really but it is amazing how uncommon common sense seems to be at times:)

Michael Pancier
11-11-2009, 01:25 PM
I wish regular folks would read this too. I've had situations where I was doing landscape work and setting up a shot with tripod when folks will walk right in front of me (even after seeing me) and would stand there taking their sweet time. On one occasion, I was at Pemquid in Maine and had my landscape that I had envisioned in my head with a reflection of the lighthouse in a tidal pool. I had waited years to take this shot since my last visit there. There was this woman just sitting on one of the rocks in my field of view. I asked her nicely if she would mind getting out of the scene for a minute so I could take my shot. She gave me a really hard time about it and was downright nasty. I managed to get the shot, but I ended up taking a picture with her in it and posted a crop of her with the lettering "beached walrus" and put it up on flickr.

On another occasion, when I was taking a scene, two girls just walked right in front of me and took pics of each other while I stood there like an idiot with my camera and tripod. So I took a picture of them and used the liquify tool to bloat their bums and posted it as well on flickr.

There's so little courtesy in the world sadly.

Jay Gould
11-11-2009, 05:13 PM
Artie, sadly, the only people that are going to read this are those that already hopefully doing what you have suggested. Here, I want to believe that you are preaching to the chorus, and hopefully the BPNers that take the time to read this thread are already following your suggetions. Writings like this require far broader publication, e.g., Outdoor Photgrapher, to reach the masses that are doing exactly what you are complaining about. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

While I cannot yet relate to your experiences with avian, I can certainly relate to Michael's landscape experiences.

In October during the Jack Graham Eastern Sierras workshop we were at Mono Lake each day either for the sunrise or the sunset. No matter how early we arrrived and set up there were always those that came late and set up right in front of the line of "first in" photographers. Not being the shy and retiring type, I had words with more than one photographer about their conduct and caused them to move our of our field of view.

Roger Clark
11-11-2009, 09:49 PM
I've had several such incidents where usually an unknowing amateur photographer has scared off birds or other wildlife. But none compares to my Whale Tail story:
http://www.clarkvision.com/stories/whaletail
(I should have taken pictures of him.)

Roger

david cramer
11-11-2009, 10:13 PM
I've experienced a twist on what Jay has reported. I had a workshop positioned and photographing bald eagles at Bosque when a van pulled up, another workshop poured out and set up behind us. That workshop leader began yelling at us to stoop down so they could shoot over our heads. All of this and there was ample room along both sides of us. Guess who didn't get there shot.

I think as photographers we are trained to observe the world more than the average individual. Most of the time that is paired with consideration of others, but not always.

Jason G. Harrison
11-11-2009, 10:37 PM
I have had only a few times where other photographers were not ethical. Worst time was when I was set up well before sunlight at the edge of a marshy area that contained several nesting pairs of Black-necked Stilts. These are VERY uncommon in these parts and as things do, word got out about them. I was set up on the edge of a farm road when another photographer and some birders drove down the road and parked RIGHT behind me. One asked if they could set up and observe the birds. I told them yes, very quietly. To my amazement, they pulled down the road a bit further, NOW in plain site of the nests...got out, opened their trunk of their SUV, and began to unload their gear, and did it very loudly.

EVERY single nesting pair left their nest and flew down the marsh area. I was shooting with a Conservation Department official, who then proceeded to inform these folks what they did was disrespectful and out right wrong. They did not say a word, just packed up and left. Within 10 minutes or so...all the Stilts were back in their places...and all was well. I think some people just DON'T think.

I have more problems with regular folks (non photographers) coming up to me while I am set up asking what I am doing. Can't tell you how many times that has messed up an outing. As such, I really try to avoid areas with people...I like to be left alone to work the subjects and not have to worry about someone coming up to me and ask loudly...whatcha looking at???

ChasMcRae
11-11-2009, 11:25 PM
Art,
My you have mellowed over the years. Good for your arteries and blood pressure !
I'm still trying to mellow in the field too. Once the situation has evolved ,not much you can do.

Daniel Cadieux
11-12-2009, 08:38 AM
Although it is simple common sense and courtesy it is surprising how often these things happen...thanks posting this Artie. Perhaps this should also be copied to the ER forum and/or made as a sticky :-)

Robert Amoruso
11-12-2009, 10:09 AM
On another occasion, when I was taking a scene, two girls just walked right in front of me and took pics of each other while I stood there like an idiot with my camera and tripod. So I took a picture of them and used the liquify tool to bloat their bums and posted it as well on flickr.

There's so little courtesy in the world sadly.

Been there but never done that (the flickr posting - good idea) Michael.

Probably the most recent and blatant examples were waterfalls in Great Smoky Mountain NP.

Robert Amoruso
11-12-2009, 10:38 AM
I recall reading this in the bulletin Artie - good stuff.

Four incidents at MINWR:

1) Two couples in their 60's throwing rocks at spoonbills to get them to fly. I went up to them and asked them why they were doing this? Response: to get them to fly. I explained the folly of this action to them and was told to mind my business. I told them as an advocate for wildlife and this refuge it is my business and that I had taken images of them doing this - including the license plate - before walking over and asked if they wanted me to make this the refuge's manager's business. They got in their cars and quickly left.

2) I was photographing an alligator. After I finished and walked away, he proceeded to climb the embankment to cross the berm road to the other impoundment. He stopped as he entered the road. At that point a pickup and a car approached. The pickup had yahoos in the back - the truck came to a sliding halt and the gator went back into the water. Of course the car behind the yahoos had to stop because the pickup was blocking the road. (It was never clear to me if the two were together)

Then one of the yahoos then goes into the water after the gator - don't ask me why. One the the persons in the car calls to them, I got a ham sandwich, maybe that will get him to come over. This gator was around 5 feet long.

I was talking pictures of all this and then walked over to them to stop this. I attempted to explain to them the folly of all this, plus it is a federal offense to feed gators. It got a bit nasty. I then explained to them I had taken their pictures as I walked around to the back of both vehicles and snapped a shot of the licenses and asked if the didn't mind me informing the refuge manager of this behavior.

3) Last year as I rounded a corner I saw a group of 60ish couples (3) tossing rocks into a canal near the road. This spot has a small island in it the gators love the bask on and at the time I was coming by they generally there (I call it gator island). Sure enough, a gator was there. I snapped an image or them and the license and then pulled up to them and let them know why they should not be doing this. No trouble just blank stares. As I drove away and looked in the mirror I see them return to tossing rocks at the gator.

I stopped and backed up, got out of the car and showed them the images on the camera and told them my next stop was the refuge manager to turn them in. They all got in the mobile home and left.

4) This is the one I did turn in. On Black Point Wildlife Drive, hunting and fishing are not allowed. I notice a large truck with a surly looking bunch cast netting on the drive. I took images of them and the license and dropped them off at the refuge visitors center. What happened after that I do not know but I was told that with the photo evidence, at a minimum a warning can be sent.

And at Viera Wetlands.

1) I was sitting on the ground photographing ducks. I had to carefully position myself at this place and then wait for the ducks. About 20 minutes into it two cars drive up behind me and two photographers get out of each and 1/2 the ducks fly off and the rest paddle off. I got up and left.

Later that day I remarked about this in the Florida Forum on NSN where I was a moderator at the time. I was none to flattering. One of the persons in this group saw it the post and took me to task. I do not regret mentioning it, I only regret not telling them at the time there actions were inconsiderate.


All too often when at MINWR, Viera and places like that a car/truck will roll up behind me as I look through the viewfinder. Sometimes the birds take off, sometimes not. 70% of the time it is to tell me that's a big lens I am using as if I did not know that. 20% of the time, it is to ask what I am photographing. 10% of the time it is someone that I know and should know better not to do it.

Paul Fusco
11-12-2009, 08:10 PM
Great stuff, Art!
I think it's good to post this info anywhere and everywhere. It's not always just the amatuers and birders that cause the problems. I have too many stories to recount, but here is one for the record books.

At the north end of the East Pond, Jamaica Bay a few years ago there was an avocet well out in the water. A friend was already working the bird and was getting almost close enough to pay off as I stood watching from the shoreline. All of a sudden a helicopter flew over and hovered over the photographer. It was low and loud. Needless to say the avocet took off, not to be seen again. Turns out the chopper was part of a police operation. They were looking for a distraught man and thought maybe Johann was him!

- Paul

Arthur Morris
11-12-2009, 09:12 PM
Good one. Was it Johann Schumacher?

Dave Mills
11-12-2009, 10:23 PM
I was on a landscape shoot at Monument Valley a few years back at the Totem Poles waiting for the sun to break the horizon. You have to pay a guide to get in there so about 8 of us are spread out in front of the dunes.When the sun breaks and we start shooting we notice a women walking in the distance heading toward us on the dunes.The last thing you want is a footprint trail on the dunes. It took her 5 minutes with all of us yelling to back off before she grudgingly responded. She had no clue about etiquette and thought she had a perfect right to be there. I'm not done yet...Same women 2 hours later. A group of us are shooting an arch and were all in a row. You couldn't miss us. She walks out between us and the arch and starts shooting. None of us could believe what she did. She was mad again that we asked her to wait until we were finished.
I partially blame the guide who didn't explain to her basic common sense etiquette and left it up to us.

Paul Fusco
11-12-2009, 11:20 PM
Good one. Was it Johann Schumacher?

Yep. He took it well from what I remember.

- Paul

Phil Battley
11-13-2009, 04:46 AM
A little different, but I was once doing research at the end of a 30-km sandspit, protected Scientific Reserve - permit access only, complete no-fly zone, very isolated. While the spit is famous for its shorebirds it also has a sea-level gannet colony. A helicopter approached, and to my amazement started to hover over the gannet colony. It's not a search & rescue machine, or one out to service the lighthouse. I start trotting over, gesticulating quite clearly and unambiguously. They move towards me AND LAND! And get out and come over to talk to me. It was someone living about 100 km away who wanted to have a look. The pilot must have known the regulations. They gave me their name, I gave the details to the Department of Conservation, who manages the reserve, and the offenders got prosecuted down the track. I guess they thought the chance of there being anybody somewhere like that was zero, when in fact it was merely negligible. I was astounded.

Phil

Arthur Morris
11-13-2009, 06:23 AM
Yep. He took it well from what I remember. - Paul

Johann and I go way, way back. I think we were friends even before I ever got a lens (that in '83). He had the Nikon 400 3.5 and I had the Canon 400 4.5 FD, both manual focus of course. We spent tons of time at JBWR but our styles were so different you would not have thought that we were even on the same planet.

We remain good friends today. Saw him this summer at Nickerson with one of his five sons.

Ian McHenry
11-13-2009, 06:28 AM
Thanks for the post Artie.
This modern day lack of consideration for others is so sad.
Possibly a large piece of material with " Please keep away.Thank You " could be displayed near tour groups.
Cheers: Ian Mc

Arthur Morris
11-13-2009, 09:06 AM
Thanks for the post Artie. This modern day lack of consideration for others is so sad.
Possibly a large piece of material with " Please keep away.Thank You " could be displayed near tour groups. Cheers: Ian Mc

YAW. Sad is a choice. :) (www.thework.com) I like to think of such encounters as a chance to educate folks. Actually, I enjoy it when folks come to join the group as long as they are respectful of the folks already photographing. I am often asked, "Why did you answer that guy's question? He is not even paying." I answer by saying, "I am trying to fool folks into thinking that I am a nice guy." They usually get my point.

And it is of course very good for business.

Ian McHenry
11-13-2009, 04:01 PM
Interesting website Artie.
Good to see your still meeting the challenge, and turning a possible negative into a positive.
Cheers: Ian Mc

Andrew McCullough
11-14-2009, 10:33 AM
I've had several such incidents where usually an unknowing amateur photographer has scared off birds or other wildlife. But none compares to my Whale Tail story:
http://www.clarkvision.com/stories/whaletail
(I should have taken pictures of him.)

Roger

That's a great story.

Jim Zipp
11-14-2009, 10:45 AM
Great stuff, Art!
I think it's good to post this info anywhere and everywhere. It's not always just the amatuers and birders that cause the problems. I have too many stories to recount, but here is one for the record books.

At the north end of the East Pond, Jamaica Bay a few years ago there was an avocet well out in the water. A friend was already working the bird and was getting almost close enough to pay off as I stood watching from the shoreline. All of a sudden a helicopter flew over and hovered over the photographer. It was low and loud. Needless to say the avocet took off, not to be seen again. Turns out the chopper was part of a police operation. They were looking for a distraught man and thought maybe Johann was him!

- Paul

I was there that day! He definitely took it better than I would have. I can recall numerous times in the past with this issue in the field but won't bother but do think it's a great thing to bring up and talk about for sure.

Dan Brown
11-14-2009, 11:09 AM
This one has a different twist to it. I was leading a group of birding friends around South Padre Island, TX a few years back and visited a small patch of willows on a vacant lot (a very popular birding spot on the Isle that many of you my be familiar with). We wandered into the trees and were suddenly upon a photo blind containing a photographer (a good pro). He proceded to become upset with us as we were "too close" to him, and he was right, we were too close (10 yards) for the birds to visit his drip. As a photographer, I agreed with him and promptly retreated. But, as birders, my friends and I didn't think that the pro photographer really had the right to dominate one of the very best spots on the little island to see migrants. We had traveled a long ways to bird in South Texas and felt shorted that we couldn't bird at that spot (out of respect for this pro, whom was a very nice person also!). As a photographer (not a pro), I wouldn't expect to be able to set up and "own" a spot like that. My 2 cents.

CliveTonge
11-14-2009, 08:46 PM
Thanks for sharing that Artie.
I think you posted something similar in the past because I recognize the first story.
I am still learning all of this, so I really appreciate the time and effort you have made to educate everyone.
In the spring I found a great place to get photographs of shorebirds. After visiting a few times and meeting a couple of photographers I learned what they expected of their fellows. At least I learned to approach slowly and wait to be to be invited over.
One morning a photographer suddenly jumped up and went crashing though the reeds and grasses along the side of the water. He was trying to get a picture of an unusual bird. As you can guess no one got a picture.
A while later I was speaking with a regular, he told me that, he had spoken to the guy on a number of occasions, for doing the same thing, but it made no difference. sigh. He explained that there was no point in staying after an episode like that. By the time the birds returned the light wouldn't be any good. So he would call it a day or go someplace else. He went on to say if he saw this fellow in the area normally he would leave before the guy had a chance to ruin his morning.
Take care,
Clive

Michael Lloyd
11-15-2009, 12:01 AM
Generally speaking I try to get along with everyone. I'm not a big fan of the "crack of dawn better beamer" shooters that seem to frequent popular areas like Bosque. I will occasionally, though rarely, use a BB but never when other photographers are shooting. There's nothing much more annoying than seeing the early morning hours blasted into 255,255,255 by an inconsiderate photographer. I've had a few shots ruined by that. All you can do to mitigate it is shoot a 5 shot burst and hope his flash duration falls outside of your burst. That said, I spent a small portion of the day today next to someone using a BB and it was of no concern to me since it was mid-morning and we were shooting side by side. In fact he put me on a pair of Ross's Goose (thank you if you are reading this) . I guess I'm saying that there is a time and place for a BB... (not for me... I don't like the look it gives... but to each their own)

Arthur Morris
11-15-2009, 07:17 AM
Hi Michael,

I am quite confused by much of what you say below.

re:

Generally speaking I try to get along with everyone. I'm not a big fan of the "crack of dawn better beamer" shooters that seem to frequent popular areas like Bosque.

Is your problem with folks using flash in the pre-dawn or only with those using a Better Beamer?

I will occasionally, though rarely, use a BB but never when other photographers are shooting.

Same question is a different form: will you use flash without a Better Beamer when other photographers around?

There's nothing much more annoying than seeing the early morning hours blasted into 255,255,255 by an inconsiderate photographer.

Please explain how folks using a flash with a Better Beamer are blasting the pre-dawn into 255, 255, 255.

I've had a few shots ruined by that. All you can do to mitigate it is shoot a 5 shot burst and hope his flash duration falls outside of your burst.

Are you doing scenics when this occurs? If not, what sort of shutter speeds and lenses are you using?

That said, I spent a small portion of the day today next to someone using a BB and it was of no concern to me since it was mid-morning and we were shooting side by side. In fact he put me on a pair of Ross's Goose (thank you if you are reading this) . I guess I'm saying that there is a time and place for a BB... (not for me... I don't like the look it gives... but to each their own)

You say that you do not like the look of images created by folks using flash with a Beamer. Sorry to burst your bubble but using a Better Beamer does not change the look of an image as compared to one created using flash without a Beamer. A Beamer is simply a wider hose that turns off automatically when the bucket is full. It saves you battery power and gives you greater reach (by concentrating the light from the flash).

There are two instances where using a Beamer can cause flash over-exposure:

1-when you are working small birds very close to the camera; with the increased flash output that comes with using the Beamer it is possible that the flash will not be able to shut off into without "over-flowing the bucket." In such cases I advise folks to remove the fresnel screen and work at -3 stops and/or to lower the diffusion screen.

2-likewise, folks using a Beamer on more distant subjects while working in Manual mode are more likely to overexpose their test images than folks not using a Beamer as their flash output is greater. But this problem can always be solved by reducing the power setting ration.

I am thinking that your problem is with folks using flash rather than with folks using a Better Beamer.

I look forward to your answers to my questions above.

ps: I intended for this thread to be educational in nature and did not anticipate that it would become a repository for "I can't believe this or that person's bad behavior in the field" stories but as a lover of what is I am fine with the way it turned out. As you might image after almost 27 years of doing this I have more than a few of those stories....

Arthur Morris
11-15-2009, 07:20 AM
Thanks for sharing that Artie. I think you posted something similar in the past because I recognize the first story.Clive

YAW. And yes, this was published both in a Bulletin a while back and also in Nature Photographer magazine.

As for the reed crasher, I do not have any suggestions as to how to deal with him without violence (and I am not in any way suggesting that).

Ed Erkes
11-15-2009, 01:00 PM
This one has a different twist to it. I was leading a group of birding friends around South Padre Island, TX a few years back and visited a small patch of willows on a vacant lot (a very popular birding spot on the Isle that many of you my be familiar with). We wandered into the trees and were suddenly upon a photo blind containing a photographer (a good pro). He proceded to become upset with us as we were "too close" to him, and he was right, we were too close (10 yards) for the birds to visit his drip. As a photographer, I agreed with him and promptly retreated. But, as birders, my friends and I didn't think that the pro photographer really had the right to dominate one of the very best spots on the little island to see migrants. We had traveled a long ways to bird in South Texas and felt shorted that we couldn't bird at that spot (out of respect for this pro, whom was a very nice person also!). As a photographer (not a pro), I wouldn't expect to be able to set up and "own" a spot like that. My 2 cents.

To me, this situation is a no-brainer--if, as I understand it, this photographer's actions were preventing others from enjoying a public area (meaning there was no way for others to enjoy this birding spot and yet keep a satisfactory distance from the photographer). No photographer, whether pro or not, has the right to monopolize an area at the expense of others who have just as much right to be there. Sometimes, photographers seem to act as if they have special privileges and rights. I once set up a perch in a small pond to try to photograph kingfishers. It was in a fairly remote , but public area, and I was in my blind before dawn. However some fishermen came to the pond shortly after sunrise, so I packed up my gear and left without any ill feelings (other than silently wishing they'd chosen another day or pond to fish). They really had just as much right to be there as I did.

Jim Buescher
11-15-2009, 02:12 PM
I was set up at a popular scenic overlook in a public area during the peak of the fall colors a few years back. While another photographer and I were waiting for the light to improve, a limo and a few other cars pulled up, a man jumped out of the limo, clapped his hands twice and said to us "OK fella's, wrap it up I have a wedding party to shoot". I told the photographer this was a public area and he'll either have to wait until we're finished or find another location. To make a long story short, I got my landscape images and he got his wedding photos...which included two unknown photographers behind the wedding party! If this professional had approached us and kindly asked if we wouldn't mind stepping aside for a few minutes, I'm sure we would've obliged. So it's not just nature photographers but other working photographers (wedding, photojournalists, etc.) that sometimes feel because it's their job they can "move to the head of the line" in public places. Can you imagine the reaction you would get if you walked up to that wedding photographer while he was busy positioning the bridal party and told him to "wrap it up, I have a landscape to shoot".:)

Jay Gould
11-15-2009, 02:27 PM
Jim, you are obviously a much nicer person than I am or have been under the same or similar circumstances. I too have been told to move from a public place in similar circumstances and funny if it didn't take me longer than I originally had planned to vacate my location in a public area.

Desmond Chan
11-15-2009, 03:38 PM
No photographer, whether pro or not, has the right to monopolize an area at the expense of others who have just as much right to be there. Sometimes, photographers seem to act as if they have special privileges and rights. I once set up a perch in a small pond to try to photograph kingfishers. It was in a fairly remote , but public area, and I was in my blind before dawn. However some fishermen came to the pond shortly after sunrise, so I packed up my gear and left without any ill feelings (other than silently wishing they'd chosen another day or pond to fish). They really had just as much right to be there as I did.

I agree. I don't think how, just because you want your scene to be everything perfect that you have the right to demand everybody else to stay outside that public area while you're waiting for the perfect conditions to press your shutter button. Certainly you can ask other people to do you a favor and stay away for a moment, but if the other folks don't comply, I don't think you have the right to be mad about other people. Ok, you're mad, understandable. They may be rude, but they also do not have to do you a favor. In fact, you actually can be in the way of other people, too. I don't know, perhaps some of you are pros and so you must have that shot. Other than that, as an amateur, yeah, I miss the shot, happens all the time. Some people are rude and some are not. We may even be one of them on some occasions. Besides, you don't know who you're dealing with. Life goes on. There's always another shot. And then there is Photoshop :)

Roger Clark
11-15-2009, 03:51 PM
I agree. I don't think how, just because you want your scene to be everything perfect that you have the right to demand everybody else to stay outside that public area while you're waiting for the perfect conditions to press your shutter button.

Desmond,
This is an interesting dilema. I was once at a beautiful lake in the Colorado rockies before sunrise with my 4x5. I was all set up and waiting for the light when along come 2 fisherman who proceeded to walk right into the lake in their waders in front of my camera. This was national forest so yes they had the right to be there. But the lake was large enough they could have entered the lake and fished about 20 or 30 yards away (seemed like just as good of conditions to me). I waited and waited for them to move. They never did and the light was gone. I never said anything to them, but I think what they did was wrong. Should I have said something? They were squarely in front of my camera about 10 to 15 yards away and just stood there fishing.

Roger

Desmond Chan
11-15-2009, 04:39 PM
Desmond,
This is an interesting dilema. I was once at a beautiful lake in the Colorado rockies before sunrise with my 4x5. I was all set up and waiting for the light when along come 2 fisherman who proceeded to walk right into the lake in their waders in front of my camera. This was national forest so yes they had the right to be there. But the lake was large enough they could have entered the lake and fished about 20 or 30 yards away (seemed like just as good of conditions to me). I waited and waited for them to move. They never did and the light was gone. I never said anything to them, but I think what they did was wrong. Should I have said something? They were squarely in front of my camera about 10 to 15 yards away and just stood there fishing.

Roger

I think you should have explained your situation to them. I would (I once asked a wedding photog to wait, too, but only for a 15, 30 sec). Perhaps they would have done you a favor and moved somewhere else, if what they were about to do could have been done somewhere else. You think the lake is big enough they could have been at other spot. They may also be thinking the same thing: "This lake is large enough...why the **** this guy with a big camera has to pick this spot where we fish everyday?" This may be cliche but communication between the parties may have helped here. You know, we are here thinking from the perspective of a photographer. What about the perspective of the other party? Are we assuming that the other party must understand and see things our way? You never know, perhaps right now in other internet forum, people are complaining how arrogant some photogs are, like because they have the camera they rule the world :D:D

Ed Erkes
11-15-2009, 06:35 PM
Desmond,
This is an interesting dilema. I was once at a beautiful lake in the Colorado rockies before sunrise with my 4x5. I was all set up and waiting for the light when along come 2 fisherman who proceeded to walk right into the lake in their waders in front of my camera. This was national forest so yes they had the right to be there. But the lake was large enough they could have entered the lake and fished about 20 or 30 yards away (seemed like just as good of conditions to me). I waited and waited for them to move. They never did and the light was gone. I never said anything to them, but I think what they did was wrong. Should I have said something? They were squarely in front of my camera about 10 to 15 yards away and just stood there fishing.

Roger

This is a situation where I would have explained what I was trying to do and ask if it was possible for them to fish a little to one side or the other. Of course, all you can do is ask. They may or may not help you out. But, unless this was a particular hot spot for them, the polite thing for them to have done was to go somewhere else. If you had been fishing at that spot, I doubt they would have moved in front of you without asking.

denise ippolito
11-15-2009, 09:45 PM
I was at Sandy Hook one early morning laying in the cold shallow water crawling up on the only shore birds around, (a few Sanderlings -which can be very skittish). I had been inching my way up for at least a half an hour after a pretty good hike in w/ my tripod and 500mm. I am not a really big/strong girl and for me to move my tripod that was set-up as low as it could go w/ my Wimberley arm and my 500mm lens I had to skootch(sp?) up on my knees and crawl up. Doing this while not scaring the birds. Anyway I noticed a fisherman out of the corner of my eye. He was heading my way so I waved him on to go behind me. Figuring he would see the set-up and just walk around me. Well he didn't -he walked right in front of my camera and scared all the birds away. I said thanks!-He said "No problem!" w/ a smirk. I won't repeat what I said back to him. I was mad at him. Not because he scared the birds away, but because he did it on purpose.

Michael Lloyd
11-16-2009, 12:37 AM
Hi Michael,

I am quite confused by much of what you say below.

re:

Generally speaking I try to get along with everyone. I'm not a big fan of the "crack of dawn better beamer" shooters that seem to frequent popular areas like Bosque.

Is your problem with folks using flash in the pre-dawn or only with those using a Better Beamer?

I will occasionally, though rarely, use a BB but never when other photographers are shooting.

Pre-dawn Artie and flash with or without a "booster". I don't care if someone uses a Better Beamer. It's not my favorite tool in the bag but it is nonetheless a tool so it would be hypocritical of me to complain in a general way. Besides that it's really none of my concern unless it impacts what I'm doing.



Same question is a different form: will you use flash without a Better Beamer when other photographers around?

There's nothing much more annoying than seeing the early morning hours blasted into 255,255,255 by an inconsiderate photographer.

Please explain how folks using a flash with a Better Beamer are blasting the pre-dawn into 255, 255, 255.

If I'm set up on... say... Sandhills... and shooting at high ISO wide open and at the right shutter speed to yield good exposure, if someone shoots at or near the same time as I do, in the general direction of where I'm shooting my shot is going to be overexposed. BB's in a crowd are bad etiquette IMHO...


I've had a few shots ruined by that. All you can do to mitigate it is shoot a 5 shot burst and hope his flash duration falls outside of your burst.

Are you doing scenics when this occurs? If not, what sort of shutter speeds and lenses are you using?


800mm / 600mm lens. ISO H - 1600 depending on light on a 1DMK3. As described above.


That said, I spent a small portion of the day today next to someone using a BB and it was of no concern to me since it was mid-morning and we were shooting side by side. In fact he put me on a pair of Ross's Goose (thank you if you are reading this) . I guess I'm saying that there is a time and place for a BB... (not for me... I don't like the look it gives... but to each their own)

You say that you do not like the look of images created by folks using flash with a Beamer. Sorry to burst your bubble but using a Better Beamer does not change the look of an image as compared to one created using flash without a Beamer. A Beamer is simply a wider hose that turns off automatically when the bucket is full. It saves you battery power and gives you greater reach (by concentrating the light from the flash).

There are two instances where using a Beamer can cause flash over-exposure:

1-when you are working small birds very close to the camera; with the increased flash output that comes with using the Beamer it is possible that the flash will not be able to shut off into without "over-flowing the bucket." In such cases I advise folks to remove the fresnel screen and work at -3 stops and/or to lower the diffusion screen.

2-likewise, folks using a Beamer on more distant subjects while working in Manual mode are more likely to overexpose their test images than folks not using a Beamer as their flash output is greater. But this problem can always be solved by reducing the power setting ration.

I am thinking that your problem is with folks using flash rather than with folks using a Better Beamer.

I look forward to your answers to my questions above.

ps: I intended for this thread to be educational in nature and did not anticipate that it would become a repository for "I can't believe this or that person's bad behavior in the field" stories but as a lover of what is I am fine with the way it turned out. As you might image after almost 27 years of doing this I have more than a few of those stories....

Maybe I should have said flash rather than flash with BB. I use the BB... I use flash... rarely and as needed. But rarely. ETTL is not something I've had much luck with and I don't use flash enough (in the field) to intuitively dial in the right amount of power (in manual) on the first shot... In studio I can walk up to my subject with a Sekonics, trigger the lights, read the meter and adjust the lights if needed. For some reason I've never had much luck doing that with birds or other wildlife :)) On the other hand, your explanation of what the BB does (BTW- I've tested varying the focal length setting of the flash and it's affect on beam shape and concentration so I'm aware of what it's doing) somewhat illustrates why I think using a BB in a crowd of photographers, during the pre-dawn to dawn hours is rude.

:D after 27 years I would imagine that you would have seen nearly everything

Roger Clark
11-16-2009, 08:56 AM
If I'm set up on... say... Sandhills... and shooting at high ISO wide open and at the right shutter speed to yield good exposure, if someone shoots at or near the same time as I do, in the general direction of where I'm shooting my shot is going to be overexposed. BB's in a crowd are bad etiquette IMHO...


I'm surprised this is an issue for you. If you are shooting at typical exposure times, say 1/250 second or faster, then in any one second, you have a 1/250 chance of exposing when another flash was going off if there was a flash per second happening. So a very low probability. Flash is a very short duration, much less than a millisecond. In all the decades I've been photographing, I've never had someone else's flash go off in one of my exposures.

Now if you were doing 10 frames a second and multiple other people were doing 10 frames a second with flash on the same subject, then it would be an issue, but even then I would bet only a few frames would be contaminated.

Roger

Michael Lloyd
11-16-2009, 09:38 AM
If the 1DMK4 was out I could see being able to shoot at 1/250th or faster in the pre-dawn hours. Maybe. The jury is still out on ultra-high ISO performance and the if there is no light then who knows. Panning shots of sandhills taking off at slow shutter speeds and / or attempts to get a standing shot are about all that I can think of to get during that time. Every now and then it works out. I guess I should say that the shot MAY have been ruined by the flash person. I've seen the same thing happen at night football games btw. And... come to think of it, when shooting day soccer and the lady across the field was shooting back toward me with her point and shoot. I've seen elk herds spooked when a lady blasted out of her RV with her point and shoot. Two of us were shooting from a tripod and, until the flash went off, having a good time watching and shooting elk.

I've been shooting for 4 decades plus and shooting birds since 2006. Bosque since last year. Last year I had a couple of shots ruined at Bosque ( Maybe I have bad luck?) and it's the first time that I had ever seen someone use a Better Beamer / flash in a crowd of photographers. This year the pre-dawn flash user count was much higher.

Rocky Sharwell
11-16-2009, 10:31 AM
I've been shooting for 4 decades plus and shooting birds since 2006. Bosque since last year. Last year I had a couple of shots ruined at Bosque ( Maybe I have bad luck?) and it's the first time that I had ever seen someone use a Better Beamer / flash in a crowd of photographers. This year the pre-dawn flash user count was much higher.

I don't have a problem with anyone using flash in the predawn hours--with or without a beatter beamer. I also don't see anything wrong with politely asking others in the crowd to avoid using flash for a few seconds--Someone did that last year while I was doing early am flash blurrs at the Venice Rookery and people cooperated.

Michael Lloyd
11-16-2009, 11:05 AM
Have you ever been to Bosque? The guy using flash didn't announce to everyone that he was about to use flash (nor would I expect him too). He was a good 30 - 40 yards to my right. I would estimate that there were around 30 photographers all lined up in a row. He was near one end, I was near the other. There was one person using flash in the crowd... apparently I'm the minority here. I still think it's rude :)

Arthur Morris
11-16-2009, 08:54 PM
I said it before and I will say it again, it may be rude to use flash in the predawn especially if others were there first and especially if they are doing wide angle very slow shutter speed stuff but putting the blame on the Better Beamer is ridiculous.

Michael Lloyd
11-16-2009, 09:01 PM
Artie... I'm not blaming the Better Beamer. You are correct. It's the use of flash at certain (but not all) times that is "my" issue... I should have worded my posts / responses better.

Arthur Morris
11-16-2009, 09:06 PM
Thanks Michael. That was my point from the beginning <smile>

Jim Neiger
11-16-2009, 09:30 PM
I'm at Bosque now and have been here since the 6th. There have been several people using flash at the crane pools in the pre-dawn hours. I haven't used flash and the flash from other photogs hasn't bothered me at all. It also does not appear to bother the birds. A much larger likelyhood of exposure being ruined comes from the vehicle headlights as people arrive and leave. The headlights didn't bother me though. Michael, perhaps your ruined photos were caused by headlights??

Michael Lloyd
11-16-2009, 09:48 PM
Hmm? Interesting thought Jim. That may very well have been the case. I didn't have any problems this year but the bird and photographer count was low when we were there. Mostly birders and ducks this time :) I ran into Doug Brown again. He said that you were conducting a workshop. I looked for you but never saw you.

Michael Lotito
12-28-2010, 04:43 AM
I am always amazed at how many photographs lack basic common sense Field Etiquette or simply don't care. Many time I will see a group or an individual snapping away at a subject as my mouth waters but I simply pass on the opportunity out of respect.

Recently there was a small group of Harlequin Ducks at a small marina. I waited in the prone position for well over an hour to have them come into position on three occasions, only to have them spooked by other photographers. Did they not care or have the intellect to figure out what they were doing wrong?

Thankfully I have thru proper etiquette and tact been able to gain access to private properties where this problem is minimized. I have also found that photographers like to try to photograph rarities and often encounter flocks of birders while doing so. Avoiding recent rare and notable sightings minimizes my aggravation.

Mike