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Hank Fannin
02-13-2008, 10:35 AM
Hi guys,

I'm having what I think are difficult focusing problems. Not sure if it's my cameras or my technique. I'm using a Nikon D-200 and or D2X with a Nikkor 300mm 1.2 prime and Nikkor 1.4 convertor with a Whimberly Head and a very steady tripod. I try to support my lens while shooting and try to roll my finger on the shutter. Most of my problems seem to be with small birds, like Painted Buntings, Wrens etc. Out of maybe 40 images I can get maybe, if I'm lucky, one image that I consider sharp. I focus on the eye and have tried auto focus, (way to much hunting) and manual focus.

Is one sharp image out of 40 or so shots considered normal? I'd think I should have a better average that that.

I've tried smaller f stops and using higher shutter speeds but can't see much improvement.

I'm actually thinking maybe I should switch my Nikon gear to Canon.

I do have better luck on larger and slower moving birds so maybe my problem is related to the quicker moving song birds.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Hank Fannin

Doug West
02-14-2008, 01:24 AM
The software you use in post processing...does it have the ability to show your focus
points when looking at a raw file? For example, I use BreezeBrowser Pro and there's
an option that will show me where my focus point was on a bird. That's the first thing
I'd check, to see first where the focus was.

When it comes to small birds, I've always had a hard time focusing on the eye...to
small. What I do is focus more on the neck or shoulder since its a little wider.

Also, in Art's books, he gives some great advice on bracing the camera, tripod and
yourself to get sharp images.

Doug

Alfred Forns
02-14-2008, 07:55 AM
Hank what iSO and shutter speed are you using?

Axel Hildebrandt
02-14-2008, 08:00 AM
1 out of 40 is way below average. You might have an occasional OOF image but most should be in focus as long as the focus point is on the eye. Do you use central point only? That might be worth a try to see if it makes a difference.

Fabs Forns
02-14-2008, 09:11 AM
Question: Are you using center point to acquire focus? I find if I move the point from the center, it hunts too much, unless I had previously acquired focus.

Jim Poor
02-14-2008, 09:25 AM
Can you post an example of the problem along with all the tech info?

Have you done focus testing in a controlled environment with a controlled subject like money taped to a wall or a focus chart like this one http://regex.info/blog/photo-tech/focus-chart/ ?

I'd test both with and without the TC 1.4.

Hank Fannin
02-15-2008, 09:00 PM
Doug,
Thanks for the reply. I use Digital4Pro. I doesn't have a feature to show me my focus point. I sometimes do try and focus on the neck area. I'd say the the magority of the time my eyes tell me I'm in focus when I squeeze the shutter, that is, the eye looks sharp. When I view the image on my computer, I'm disapointed. It looks soft. I usually open the image in DP4, then PS2 and view at 100%.

Hank Fannin
02-15-2008, 09:08 PM
I've been trying everything from shooting wide open, to stopping down. My best results seem to be at f5.6 and f8. I usually shoot in Aperature mode but have tried Shutter Priority with different speeds. So far, after numerous different combinations, I can't seem to find that magic setup. I try to keep the ISO at the lowest setting to achieve those numbers.

I tried some different combos today and still not happy with the results. The images are so so, I think, but just not what I call "Sharp". Maybe I'm expecting to much.

Thanks,

Keep your ticker ticking and your camera clicking.

Hank Fannin

Hank Fannin
02-15-2008, 09:14 PM
Axel,

Thanks for the reply. In Auto Focus Mode for small birds I almost always use center focus. In Manual mode I concentrate on the birds eye. When I squeeze the shutter my eyes tell me I'm in focus except of couse, when the little critters move, which seems to me constantly. Even when I catch there heads still for a second and press the shutter my ratio of really sharp images seems low.

My tripod is steady and the image as I see it is rock steady.

Thanks for the help.

Keep your ticker ticking and your camera clicking.

Hank Fannin

Hank Fannin
02-15-2008, 09:18 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I do try and use center focus on small birds unless I'm in Manual Focus mode. It doesn't seem to help that much. In manual my eyes tell me I'm in focus but then when I see them at 100% in PS2 they look soft.

I visited your website last night. Awesome and inspiring images.

Keep your ticket ticking and your camera clicking.

Hank Fannin

Hank Fannin
02-15-2008, 09:47 PM
Jim,

Thanks for the reply.

I have done focus test and used the focus chart. On all thos my camera/lens combos seem fine.

Hopefully I've managed to attach what seems to be my typical shot. When I squeezed the shutter the eye looked razor sharp. When I opened it in PS2 I was very dissapointed. Out of about 10 shots not one was what I consider "sharp" A little later I got a very acceptable shot of a Red Belly Woodpecker. I shot this in Raw then used Arties method of saving to jpeg and the web. No corrections or sharpening, just a straight conversion.

I'm just having probelms believing that it should be this difficult or hit-or-miss to get sharp. in focus images.

Maybe I'm just to **** critical and expecting too much.

Keep your ticker ticking and your camera clicking.

Hank Fannin

JH Tugs
02-16-2008, 10:29 AM
Hank, what are the techs on that capture? (EXIF didn't carry through to the jpeg). MF or AF?

Chris Starbuck
02-16-2008, 04:47 PM
Hank,
Two things occur to me that I haven't seen anyone else mention.

First, if you truly applied zero sharpening in the raw converter, and none in Photoshop either, then that's at least part of the problem. All digital cameras have an optical anti-aliasing (low pass) filter in front of the sensor, which softens the image. Thus all images from any digital camera always require some sharpening just to recover from the softening of the anti-alias filter. (The purpose of this filter is to prevent moire patterns and other image artifacts caused by the physical structure of the sensor, i.e., discrete photosites distributed across the focal plane.)

Second, I'm not so familiar with Nikons, but many cameras have a diopter adjustment on the eyepiece. If that's out of adjustment (the knobs get bumped all the time in handling the camera), manual focus will always be off (but it doesn't affect autofocus). I've never seen a camera manual that describes how to correctly adjust the eyepiece diopter, and it drove me nuts until I stumbled across the explanation (can't remember where now). In brief, point the camera at something light and evenly toned (like blank sky), and with the lens in MF, completely out of focus (like at minimum distance). Adjust the eyepiece diopter until the markings on the focus screen are at their sharpest. It's a good idea to check this every time you're going to be using MF, because it's so easy to bump the knob while taking the camera in and out of a bag or backpack.

Hope this helps.

Chris

Jim Neiger
02-16-2008, 05:44 PM
Hank,

I think Chris gave you your answer. The images (all digital images) need some sharpening. I downloaded your example and applied USM to the subject. It looks pretty sharp to me.

Hank Fannin
02-16-2008, 09:17 PM
JH,

Thanks for the response. That shot was done using MF. I've tried both. With small birds AF hunts way to much.
I think Chris and Jim helped me a lot.

Hank

Hank Fannin
02-16-2008, 09:25 PM
Chris,

Thanks again for responding. I was always under the impression and have read this: " Garbage in-garbage out" and understood this to mean that an image that actually requires sharpening must not have been aquired properly. I did not fully understand or don't remember reading about optical anti-aliasing. ( I probably did but, obviously it didn't register)

Did you read Jim Neiger's reply and the image he sent back. That really makes my day. Maybe there's hope for me.

Do you apply sharpening when doing the RAW conversion or is it better to wait until the last step in your workflow?

Thanks again.

Hank Fannin

Hank Fannin
02-16-2008, 09:34 PM
Jim,

Thanks for the response. I'm a big fan.

Chris explained optical anti-aliasing and gave me a great tip on the proper way to set my diopter adjustment.

I'm just blown away by how simple, or so it seems, my focus problem really was. Like I mentioned to Chris I've been under the impression that to get really great images they have to be in razor sharp focus without requiring any extra sharpening.

Do you do your sharpening while in RAW or at the end of your workflow? Artie states that he doesn't do any sharpening to his originals, only after he's completed his editing.

I live in Port St. Lucie and quite often roam around in your neck of the woods. I'm planning on taking my boat to Blue Cypress in the near future and trying my hand using your techniques for flight shots.

Thanks again.

Hank Fannin

Chris Starbuck
02-17-2008, 12:45 PM
Hank,
Yes, I saw Jim's repost of your image; looks really good!

I'm pretty much in the "sharpen last" camp. But I do make use of the sharpening in Adobe Camera Raw -- I've changed the defaults to apply the sharpening to "preview only", and then set it at 100%. Setting "preview only" in the ACR sharpening preferences means that it won't actually be applied to the image when you open it in PS, but it lets me evaluate better just how sharp the image really is. It also accentuates any noise (again, just in the preview) and thus helps with applying the noise reduction available in ACR.

Chris

Ian McHenry
02-17-2008, 01:35 PM
Hi Hank
You might like to try focussing on the branch the bird is standing on and see how this turns out.
I find that the best way to get pix of kingfishers.

Hank Fannin
02-17-2008, 08:25 PM
Thanks Chris,

I'm trying my sharpening in RAW like you suggested and the results are much better. I also set my D-200 Custom Setting to apply +1 sharpening in camera. This also seemed to help.

I had some good results today. One thing I'm doing is being more patient and not snapping the shot until I'm sure of focus.

Thanks for the help.

Keep your ticker ticking and your camera clicking.

Hank Fannin

Hank Fannin
02-17-2008, 08:29 PM
Ian,

I tried that this evening and your are right. My success rate went up considerably. Out of 20 some shots I ended up with 10 very sharp photos. Now if I can just get the composition, BG and HA right I'll be on track.

Keep your ticker ticking and your camera clicking.

Hank Fannin

Jim Neiger
02-17-2008, 08:30 PM
Hank,

Sharpening depends a great deal on the size of the image, so it depends on what the final image will be used for. Web images are very small and require less sharpening than large prints for example. I also prefer to do most of my sharpening in PS so that I can apply it selectively. No need to sharpen an OOF bg, that only enhances noise.

Hank Fannin
02-18-2008, 06:40 PM
Thanks Jim,

I'm working to improve my basic shooting techniques, especially with small, quick moving birds. Timing seems to be the key.

I've been trying USM, Smart Sharpen and the LAB technique to do my sharpening. So far I find that Smart Sharpen, in advanced mode, does the best job.

No one seems to mention using noise removal software on their images. I use Noise Ninja and can really tell a difference.

Thanks for all the help.

Hank Fannin

Fabs Forns
02-18-2008, 07:12 PM
When an image is SHARP at capture, you can tell at 100% pixels.You don't need to sharpen it to see it. IMO, the example simply is not sharp.

Mary Stamper
02-18-2008, 10:24 PM
I agree with Fabs. That photo is simply not sharp. It looks like the right front claw is fairly sharp. Possibly a little back focus.

If you are manual focusing, is the green dot lit up? And is the AF sensor right over the eye? Or are you focusing between the sensors?

Have you tried testing with a stationary object, using mirror lock-up and a cable release? If that is sharp, you could actually have subtle camera shake. The head has some feel of that to me. Or was the bird quivering at all?

I shoot with a D2x, and I can tell you beyond any shadow of a doubt that the camera is capable of WAY more sharpness than that, even with no sharpening applied. And that's with my 300F4 lens which does not have VR. I have my in-camera sharpening set to none permanently. It is however, due to the tiny, tiny photo sites, VERY sensitive to the subtlest of camera movements.

Any sharpening that I do is done after final resizing, and often done selectively on a mask.

Hank Fannin
02-20-2008, 07:07 PM
Fabs,

Thanks for the response. I agree 100%. That image is not sharp and that's what I'm trying to figure out. Why?
Way too many of my images are just like that one. I have upped my % of sharp images by paying much more attention to my basic shooting techniques and never squeezing the shutter until I hear that beep.

As I stated I do have better results with larger birds and wildlife. It's just those little fast movers that seem to give me so much heartache.

Thanks for the help.

Hank Fannin

Hank Fannin
02-20-2008, 07:23 PM
Mary,

Thanks for responding. I'm not sure what you mean by " between the sensors". For small birds I most always use center focus and try to auto focus on the closest eye. Therein lies the problem. Those feathered little jitterbugs are rarely still long enough for the camera to acquire focus and for me to hear the beep and then squeeze the shutter. Also, as I'm sure you've experienced, it's very difficult to hold focus on something that small. I'm shooting a 300, 2.8 Prime which focuses as fast as any lens I've seen. I use the Single focus point mode most of the time because the C mode seems to be constantly hunting.

Just as a note: My D200 and my older D70 both give me better results than my D2H. I've spent considerable time tweaking and trying different settings ( Moose Peterson's guides mostly) and I'm just not happy with it. I have it posted for sale and will take the money and buy a new Sigma 50-500.

Thanks again for the reply and help.

Hank Fannin

Jan Walker
02-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Hank -- I sympathize completely with your focus frustrations. I'm having the same kind of disappointing results using Olympus equipment. When the photo is really in focus, it just jumps at you. But my proportion of hits is quite low also. It is really tempting to question the equipment but I know that it can work sometimes and am still trying to figure out my contribution to why it is only sometimes.

I usually use manual exposure. When things are moving, the auto exposure keeps changing its mind and the auto focus doesn't get a chance to do its work. I mostly use the focus setting for "auto-focus plus manual adjustment with the shutter button held half way down". With enough light and birds big enough in the viewfinder, this can help a lot. But it can also mess up so I was interested to see the comments on making sure the diopter correction was exactly correct. (I have to take my glasses off to focus because they are proportional bifocals and focus differently through different parts of their lens and for each eye. Then I have to put them back on to check the shot on the LCD. Tedious.) I have also used manual focus when things at a distance are moving around and it feels as if they ought to all be within the depth of field. Somehow that seems to rarely work very well for birds so maybe I need to study depth of field calculations more.

What prompted me to write was your question about how to sharpen. I have been puzzling over this for several years but recently encountered a detailed book on shapening by the late Bruce Fraser. It is completely eye-opening. Full title: Real World Image Sharpening with Adobe Photoshop CS2, Peach Pit Press 2007. The examples include birds and cows and treebranches rather than studio shots. I'm looking forward to trying to learn both the techniques but most importantly where to apply which of them for what effect in a particular image. It's how to turn the aesthetic thinking into a set of technical choices that still escapes me. The book has a lot of really good material and I expect you'd really find it useful.

Regards -
Jan Walker

Maxis Gamez
02-24-2008, 04:50 PM
Jim's post helped a lot. If you pay close attention the tip of the perch is the SHARPERS point in your image, therefore your main subject is OUT of focus. Adding sharpening sometimes you can get away with it but an OUT of focus image is just that!!