Friendly Bear

[Arthur Morris]

This is an image of two-time Bear Boat IPT particpant George Brunt and a friendly Katmai coastal Brown Bear, aka, Grizzly bear. George who is from Canada is a really nice fellow, helpful as can be, and a fine photographer. When I say something that he agrees with he says eggs-ZACT-lee with a huge emphasis on the ZACT syllable. It cracks me up every time.

[Arthur Morris]

ps: That is a look of fear on George's face.

[Alfred Forns]

.. he is frozen :) ... too close for comfort and I think the bear is laughing !!!

[Axel Hildebrandt]

What happened next? Did he share his breakfast with the bear?

[Gus Cobos]

I think he's frozen in time...:eek::D...so what happened next???:confused::cool:

[Joerg Rockenberger]

Insane. And so fascinating. How do you avoid that bears start associating people with food? Is everyone instructed to not carry any food with them in the field? JR

[Arthur Morris]

As the bear kept getting closer our guide stood and walked slowly towards the bear talking to her. The bear sniffed a bit and kept on going. The guide carries pepper spray but never reached for it in this case.

No food at all is permitted in the field. (As a diabetic, I take a small bit of cheese in a sealed plastic bag). The bear had a cub and was just curious. It is possible that it was attracted to the smell of halibut on our clothing.

[Kerry Perkins]

Guess he didn't have time to change to the macro lens... That's a little too close for a grizzly. Hope he hadn't been cutting bait!!

[Geurt Bloem]

I do not think George had egg-ZACT-lee this in mind when he saw the bear coming closer. ;)

For me, the distance between him and that bear is such that no matter what pepper spray or "bear-talking" ability the guide had, if that bear decided she did not like George's smell, George would have been seriously compromised. A very high risk distance between George and a wild predator I'd guess, but then I have no experience of your bears and their general demeanour at all. Here in Africa, you should never try that with a lioness with cubs:cool:

Thanks for showing the image Arthur.

[Tell Dickinson]

Now that is living dangerously - you must have used a very fast shutter speed Art as I can not detect any movement blur in George's knees :)

Tell

[LouBuonomo]

Well I would have wet myself... I guess the old adage Never Run applies here... Food Runs !

[Grady Weed]

I agree with Kerry and Lou! Close one!

[Arthur Morris]

I do not think George had egg-ZACT-lee this in mind when he saw the bear coming closer. ;)

For me, the distance between him and that bear is such that no matter what pepper spray or "bear-talking" ability the guide had, if that bear decided she did not like George's smell, George would have been seriously compromised. A very high risk distance between George and a wild predator I'd guess, but then I have no experience of your bears and their general demeanour at all. Here in Africa, you should never try that with a lioness with cubs:cool:

Thanks for showing the image Arthur.

Thanks for dropping by Guert. I have the utmost confidence in our guide. He has been taking folks to see and photograph the bears for more than 20 years with zero attacks and zero incidences. Such close encounters usually happen several times in a week but the bears are just curious. And there is lots of salmon in the fall and there are lots of clams and grass in the spring.

Only two folks have been killed in Katmai by bears: Timothy Treadwell who got what he was asking for and his unfortunate girlfriend. Have you seen the movie or read the book?

[denise ippolito]

Artie, A little too close for me too!:) I saw that movie and agree w/ you they were asking for it.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Denise, Actually, only he was the one asking for it.

[denise ippolito]

Artie, Yes, but what was she doing there?She was a grown woman responsible for her own decisions. He did not have her tied to a post. She knew full well of his intentions and his lack of concern and true respect.

[Arthur Morris]

Artie, Yes, but what was she doing there?She was a grown woman responsible for her own decisions. He did not have her tied to a post. She knew full well of his intentions and his lack of concern and true respect.

I agree. But sometimes folks have a way of coercing others into doing what they do not want to do. I consider her a victim, him a whacko.

[denise ippolito]

Artie, I agree w/ that. After the movie, I considered her a victim and him a wacko. It is just very hard for me to understand.

[Arthur Morris]

Agree; it is hard to understand a nut-job.

[James Shadle]

Talk about baiting!
I've never thought about using a workshop participant as bait.
You are cutting edge and I can't wait to try it myself.
James

[Arthur Morris]

Ah, the ugly truth is out: a furtively stuck a salmon fillet into George's vest that very morning....

[Rocky Sharwell]

Artie, I agree w/ that. After the movie, I considered her a victim and him a wacko. It is just very hard for me to understand.

I agree with you and Artie--He struck me as being mentally ill in a big way!

[DanWalters]

That is pretty close! The bear does seem to be smiling!

[Paul Lagasi]

Artie...my heart would have been racing...as much in nervousness, as with the rush of being so close to one of these majestic animals....kudos to your guide for this...

[David Smith]

I think that was TOO CLOSE.. If that bear was indeed a female with a cub, anything could have triggered an attack, even the noise of the shutter tripping, IF the bear considered it a threat to her cub. I am sure that if a Ranger had been there and seen that, the photography trip would have been over.. I can appreciate the fact that these bears are used to humans and tolerant of them, and maybe even inquisitive, but this was an extremely volatile situation, that could have resulted in injury or death to both of the parties involved.. When that bear started moving toward your group, the guide should have immeadiately started some type of response to neutralize the danger, either by having the group back slowly away or distracting the bear to another direction..
With the lens that is pictured in the image, there was no reason for that bear to get within 50-100 feet of the group.

JMHO

Dave

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

I wonder what would happen if the 20-year attack free period suddenly ended? These are wild animals and people still tend to forget that. Who would get sued in that case? :D

[Arthur Morris]

Ah, I was wondering when you two would come to the party. I had been expecting your arrival. You should really subscribe to our Bulletins as I addressed these concerns today in a BAA Notes.

Here is the piece:

TOO CLOSE TO THE BEAR? AN e-MAIL CONVERSATION

After sending yesterday’s Bulletin (which included the image and caption above), I received an e-mail from subscriber who wishes to remain anonymous. I am publishing pretty much the entire e-mail exchange here below. It is on the long side but will make for some interesting reading. (In the interest of readability I have corrected numerous spelling and grammatical errors.)
JR: The behavior shown in subject photo above (and your defense of same) is irresponsible and inexcusable regardless of statistics, the guides' experience, or anything else. Bears are wild animals. Bears and other wild animals are predicable and can't read statistics. A wild animal perfectly content to be near someone 100 times or 1000 times may attack the very next time. We have no way of knowing why. Had something happened, it would automatically have been the bear that was blamed and likely destroyed. Wouldn't you agree that there is no photograph worth running the risk of endangering the subject or the photographer no matter how small that risk? This did both. I doubt you will agree and I do not wish to engage in debate. I just thought it important for you to know that there was at least one divergent viewpoint to all those given on the blog and I ask you with all sincerity to simply think about it. Had there been a ranger present, do you think he/she would've condoned this? Sincerely, JR
AM: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Are you suggesting that George should have run away, or than nobody should be out in the wild photographing bears in the first place? Later and love, artie
ps: Photographers and float-planing day trippers have been visiting Katmai for more than 2 decades and enjoying close encounters without incident. Timothy Treadwell and his girlfriend were killed and eaten there but if you know the story at all he was begging for it. As far as what would have happened had a ranger been present, I have no idea. They did, however, know about and tolerate Treadwell’s insane behaviors for years until he was killed….

…..
JR: Thanks so much for the considerate and courteous response.
AM: YAW.
JR: I am assuming based on the background in the scene and the rig George is using that the bear was visible from a distance.
AM: Correct.
JR: In that instance, it is easy to move at the same pace to remain a respectable distance and not interfere with the animal's buffer zone or "safe" zone. Of course, I do not know what is behind you as you are taking the photo.
AM: There are often bears behind the group.
JR: If the bear came out from cover suddenly and was on him before he had time to retreat, then of course I'm not suggesting he run away. You and I both know that would be the absolute worst thing to do. I am also not suggesting that none of us should be there.
AM: I would disagree. If you are anywhere near the bears, a hundred yards say, and you are not with an experienced guide who knows the individual bears, or if you wander into the wrong area out of ignorance, the wrong bear can run you down in less than ten seconds. By allowing folks into Katmai there is always a risk of getting attacked and eaten. Period.
JR: We all can enjoy the privilege of being out there taking photos and do so without endangering ourselves or the subject. Again, with his rig, there is no need to encroach so why allow it?
AM: You would really have to experience what is going on to understand what is going on. Chuck has been doing this for 20 years. He knows the individual bears. He knows the bad-tempered bears. Though I have not met one of them, he has told me that when a bad bear comes along he has the groups move away or leave. That was not the case here. And the bear approached George, not visa versa.
JR: What possible positive reason is there for not simply moving away?? Not run away and not wait and then run away but simply not allow the situation to come to be in the first place? What possible reason?
AM: The bears routinely approach us to within 5 to 20 yards. Routinely. Once they are that close and they decide to come even closer, leaving the area is not a good plan. You might be in one spot and have a bear go after a salmon and seem to be charging right at you when it is in fact headed for a salmon. Again, this happens in split seconds. And again, leaving the area at any speed is not a good plan.
JR: As to your "ps", I repeat, the fact that it hasn't happened is no defense against the possibility that it might and then it would be the bear that pays the ultimate price.
AM: Again, anyone in bear territory or anyone photographing bears in Katmai is of course potentially at risk no matter the distance that they keep from this or that individual bear. So you cannot have your cake and eat it. Either keep everyone out of the park, everyone, fisherman, campers, photographers, everyone, or else let the bears interact occasionally with the humans at close range in the company of a skilled, knowledgeable, and experienced guide.
JR: Bears are more important than photographs and I say that as a nature photographer who loves both nature and photography. I know the Treadwell story and do not condone or defend either what he did or that he was allowed to do it. His behavior was inexcusable.
AM: Agree.
JR: I would say that even if I agree with all of your points, which clearly I don not.
AM: Just as I do not agree at all with your points, being based on a single photograph and your never having been there.
JR: I think we (sic; you) should not publicize such actions to the general populace who may be neither as informed or considerate of the wildlife as the person portrayed.
AM: Sorry, but that is ridiculous. First, you are again forgetting that the bear approached George. Peacefully. Out of curiosity. George did not approach the bear. Second and most important, you cannot get up to see the bears without a competent guide. If you could, lots of folks would have already have been eaten. There are morons who get their arms ripped off by lions or bears at zoos, and some who have been killed at zoos. And I am talking about the general public, not the zookeepers.
JR: My overarching driving force is that more and more the natural world available wildlife is doing nothing but shrinking and when it comes to man vs animal, the animals rights always come second.
AM: If the rangers were shooting a bear or two each season because of the actions of photographers I would wholeheartedly agree with you, but zero bears shot because of the actions of photographers over the past 20 or 30 years is a pretty good record.
JR: It's high time we begin to make more allowances for these creatures to not just exist but truly live.
AM: Then write your congressman and demand that Katmai National Park is permanently closed to all human visitation.
JR: I think that is one of our gifts of nature photography in that we hopefully inspire others to admire, preserve and protect our dwindling natural world and the creatures in it. Failure to do so will result in nothing to photograph at all absent farms and zoos.
AM: That is a nice speech but it has nothing to do with the reality of Katmai. And you can get eaten at a game farm as well as at the zoo.
JR: Enough, I'm getting too preachy
AM: Agreed.
JR: … and will lose my point more than make it.
AM: Again, with your never having been there, your points and arguments are not scoring at all with me. In fact, they make no sense at all. I can see why you did not want to get into a debate.
JR: Again, I do thank you for your courtesy and willingness to listen.
AM: You are welcome. I will be running our conversations in a Notes soon. Would you like me to mention you by name and/or include your e-mail address? Later and love, artie


…..


JR: Look, I don't want this debate to go on forever.
AM: Interesting. Yet you keep on writing back…
JR: I knew going in that there was no way on earth I would get you to see my position but I wrote anyway because I felt it was important that you know not everybody is in your boat.
AM: I am fine with that but as I said, your arguments are weak and your points are pretty much indefensible.
JR: I understand fully that I am making assumptions not having been there.
AM: Agreed and already pointed out by me.
JR: I am not trying to portray myself as any kind of animal expert. I am not trying to denigrate the experience or character of anybody involved.
AM: Well, you have already stated that #1: I should not have allowed the situation to develop as it did. And #2: that it was wrong of me to publish that image. So I guess it depends on your definition of “denigrate.”
JR: I also realize that grizzly bears are not the awful beasts they are sometimes portrayed as being by people who don't know any better.
AM: That is obviously correct.
JR: They are in fact rather well behaved and left to their own devices and treated properly prove to be no threat. I understand the wonderful record of Katmai and am thrilled by that.
AM: As the folks who visit are thrilled by being in their close proximity.
JR: My point and my only point which does not seem to be getting through is this: with experienced guides and the fantastic equipment now available it should be possible to get all the wonderful photographs anybody could want without getting in close proximity to the bear or any animal and thereby provide the opportunity for an unfortunate accident. That's it and you still have not explained why anybody needs to be this close.
AM: Well, I have explained that in detail so I will not repeat myself here.
JR: As for publishing this…
AM: I will be publishing it so that folks can see your points. I asked whether you wanted me to include your name. A yes or no answer would be fine.
JR: …providing my e-mail address would be like me forwarding the whole thing to Defenders of Wildlife or the National Resources Defense Council and inviting their membership to chime in. Neither one of us needs our mailboxes full in that manner.
AM: Well, excuse me. When I say something or publish an image in a Bulletin, I am open to comments from 10,500+ folks (including you). It is interesting that you feel free to write me to express your opinion but then decline to have your e-mail address published along with the conversation. Quite interesting. Hey, while I am sure that many folks would be agreeing with me there would likely be some who would be agreeing with you. I did miss your original point. You are obviously free to send the image and the Bulletin to whomever you would like. Be sure however, to include your e-mail address. In your first e-mail you stated “I do not wish to engage in debate,” yet when I wrote you back you chose to reply and debate and you did that twice. But when I ask you questions you choose to ignore them. Later and love, artie
ps: I would appreciate hearing from you before 11 am today as to whether you would like me to use your name or not in the Bulletin. I will be stating that you asked not to have your e-mail address published (unless you reconsider and instruct me to do otherwise.) pps: I have probably spent close to an hour answering your e-mails…..


…..


AM: Third try getting you to answer a simple question; I asked whether you wanted me to include your name. Yes or no would be fine. Do you want me to use your name or do you prefer to be anonymous?
JR: Sorry - no, let it rest - no name, no e-mail, no nothing.
AM: OK. I love folks with big mouths who have zero guts. Later and love, artie

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

Ah, I was wondering when you two would come to the party. I had been expecting your arrival. You should really subscribe to our Bulletins as I addressed these concerns today in a BAA Notes.

Hi Artie

I guess I am ONE of the above? :eek: Either way, if this is the community that the ownership preaches then we are all entitled to comment as long as it is done in a civilized manner right? ;)

Either way, if you were more in tune with who is subscribed to your bulletins then you would know that I already do and have been a subscriber for a couple of years. In fact, I did read all of what you had just posted above in my e-mailed bulletin. I am glad no one gets (had ever been) attacked. I look forward to all the fanfare and fireworks when someone (God forbid) finally does though! :(

[Joerg Rockenberger]

Just for the record - as I am signing around here with "JR": It wasn't me. :o

Now, I'd be first to admit that I've never been there and have no clue as for what precautions have been taken or if the actions by any photographers and other visitors in that area are responsible or not. That being said it's like the stock market - historical performance doesn't guarantee future performance. The fact that nothing has happened in the past 20 years of visits to Katmai and I presume guided bear tours is fantastic and probably speaks to the care and respect the guides and each participant shows towards the bears. And to the tolerance and patience of bears with such "intruders".

On the other hand, there is no doubt that the potential for accidents exists even under the best of circumstances as they appear to have existed in this situation. What if George would have flinched or even run away? Not every person could deal with such situation calmly. Or what if the bear was really curious about that unusual tall and land-based fish (smell) and had reached out to give it a good pat?

Saying that everyone entering Katmai assumes the risk of being attacked or eaten by a bear and is therefore on their own is a bit too easy IMO. The guides first and foremost but also the tour leaders who popularize such encounters with their dramatic images and enable others to participate carry the responsibility for everyone's safety and health. And it's obviously in your own interest as there will be a backlash if anything should ever happen (not talking about treadwelling) on such a tour.

To some extent, the reaction could be similar to what has happened after the 1996 incident at Mt. Everest when 8 people died during one day/night. Yes, all the victims were there on their own desire and responsibility. But it was the tour leaders (two of which actually died) who brought people into a zone for which those others perhaps were not ready for. There was an intense discussion about the increasing commercialization of the summit ascents and the danger ill-prepared climbers put themselves and others into. Of course, nothing really came out of it and it's back to business as usual.

Very hopefully nothing like this will ever happen at Katmai and other places where close interactions with wildlife are still possible. And I am not pretending to know how to make such encounters safer. But it's safe and it should be uncontroversial to say that more distance is better - even if the bears approach the humans. I hope that one day I have the opportunity to participate in such a bear tour but I wouldn't mind if our group would keep some more distance.

And yes, I realize that if a bear has decided to attack you the difference between 10 ft and 100 ft is really only a matter of time. :(

JR

[Arthur Morris]

Oshkosh,

You are taking this way too personally.

I guess I am ONE of the above?

That would be correct.

Either way, if this is the community that the ownership preaches then we are all entitled to comment as long as it is done in a civilized manner right?

Absoultey; what would make you think otherwise????? All that I was trying to do was make the point that the two comments had already been (asked) and answered.

Either way, if you were more in tune with who is subscribed to your bulletins then you would know that I already do and have been a subscriber for a couple of years.

I figured that you were. Are you suggesting that I memorize the 10,500 names on my distribution list? That would not leave me much time for dong critiques here on BPN....

In fact, I did read all of what you had just posted above in my e-mailed bulletin.

That is good.

I am glad no one gets (had ever been) attacked.

Me too. I have been a close to a bear as George was.

I look forward to all the fanfare and fireworks when someone (God forbid) finally does though!

There would not be much fanfare or many fireworks, probably not even a funeral.... I have been saying two relevant thing for several years:

#1: It is great that the park service did not over-react after Treadwell and his lady friend had been killed and eaten (that after they allowed him to continue his shennanigans for way too many years.

#2: If any photographer/float planer/bear viewer is killed or even attacked I would expect that all permits would be revoked immediately. Not sure what would happen if a camper or hiker got chowed on. (So note that the latter is much more likely to happen.)

As I wrote in the Notes today, I am aware of the risks. But they are very small. You have to have been there to believe that.

Respectfully

[Arthur Morris]

More seriously:

re:

I wonder what would happen if the 20-year attack free period suddenly ended?

If the 20-year attack free period ended--suddenly or not--someone would get attacked, injured, and possibly killed. For sure. And then it would be likelihood that all bear-viewing permits would be eliminated.

These are wild animals and people still tend to forget that.

Are you suggesting that I have forgotten that?

Who would get sued in that case? :D

Possibly me. Possibly the tour operator. But surely not the bear. And probably not the park service.

In view of the fact that you stated that you had read today's notes I admit to being somewhat puzzled as to the purpose of your post. Please do explain.

[Arthur Morris]

I can confirm here that John Rain was not the cowardly JR. (Yeah, there's got to be a TV show joke in there somewhere....) And, catch this, I pretty much agree with every thing that John Rain had to say above.

I would be interested, however, to see what he would do if he ever gets there and has bears on all four sides of the group when one of them approaches out of curiosity. That may sound far-fetched but it is not. I have been in bays with 19 and 39 bears fishing. This year our top count was 14 in view at once. And some of those were behind us....

Were I not confident in my guide I simply would quit going. Heck, if I get eaten next year you can all start and "I Told You So" thread in my memory. Anyone care to bet on it?

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

To be honest, I posted the initial post before I read the Bulletin. The bulletin gets delivered to an older e-mail address provided by my ISP. Anyway, glad no one is hurt and while I am not questioning YOUR ability as a guide or your guide's ability, it does look worrying for perhaps anyone who is not privy to the scenario and that is simply all I am saying. One of our local wildlife rescue people were just there for a month (in the very same area as you) and loved it. They too went with a guide and came back with their own skins and recommended it highly. :) When your *** does get a chewing I will be first to say "I told you so!". ;)

[Joerg Rockenberger]

I can confirm here that John Rain was not the cowardly JR.
Thanks.


(Yeah, there's got to be a TV show joke in there somewhere....)
No more of those please. ;)


I would be interested, however, to see what he would do if he ever gets there and has bears on all four sides of the group when one of them approaches out of curiosity.
That's exactly my concern. How would I or others in my tour group react? I sure hope I as well as everyone else in the group have steel nerves like George and you and stay put. But how can you be sure that I or the person next to me doesn't freak out?

And I totally understand that your group has been in a situation where there was no other option than to let the bear approach as there was no escape route. Maybe the responsibility of the guide and the tour organizer is to make sure that there always is an escape route. Again, I don't have enough experience to give advice on how to handle such situation but it might be a thought for discussion.

And please don't get eaten next year! :)

JR

PS: by the way, which bulletin you're talking about? Last one I received is #298.

[Arthur Morris]

Ákos,

re:

I am not questioning YOUR ability as a guide or your guide's ability; it does look worrying for perhaps anyone who is not privy to the scenario and that is simply all I am saying.

Understood and agree. You need to have spent some time there to understand.

One of our local wildlife rescue people were just there for a month (in the very same area as you) and loved it. They too went with a guide and came back with their own skins and recommended it highly.

Jeez, for a moment I thought that they came back with their own bear skins.

When your *** does get a chewing I will be first to say "I told you so!".

If that happens I will not be around to hear it....

You did miss this one:

AL: Either way, if this is the community that the ownership preaches then we are all entitled to comment as long as it is done in a civilized manner right?

AM: Absoultey; what would make you think otherwise?????

[Bryan Hix]

That was an interesting debate (although I guess according the JR it wasn't). When I first saw the photo I thought, you are either crazy, scared to death, or extremely brave. Either way, after reading the banter, I guess I see it as the same as if you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, God Bless you. If you get in an accident, I'm sure you calculated that risk when you hopped on the bike. My friend invited me this year to flyfish Katmai and unfortunately I couldn't go. The photos they sent of bears right next to them in the river pretty much freaked me out. Although I respect and am in awe of North America's largest predator, my primal fear of bears will prevent me from ever being that close to one. Same to my toothy friend, the shark. So I say, God Bless to those who have the guts to walk among them.

[Arthur Morris]

That was an interesting debate (although I guess according the JR it wasn't). When I first saw the photo I thought, you are either crazy, scared to death, or extremely brave. Either way, after reading the banter, I guess I see it as the same as if you want to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, God Bless you. If you get in an accident, I'm sure you calculated that risk when you hopped on the bike. My friend invited me this year to flyfish Katmai and unfortunately I couldn't go. The photos they sent of bears right next to them in the river pretty much freaked me out. Although I respect and am in awe of North America's largest predator, my primal fear of bears will prevent me from ever being that close to one. Same to my toothy friend, the shark. So I say, God Bless to those who have the guts to walk among them.

Hi Brian, It is a thrill when you can smell their breath. As for riding a motorcycle, you would have to look up the stats but I am thinking the that number of folks with their brains splattered on the street, road, or highway in bike accidents is thousands, heck tens of thousands times or more at least than the total number of folks who have been killed by bears in the last two centuries on the whole planet.

I will gladly walk with the bears but you will never catch me on a motorcycle helmet or not.

[Bryan Hix]

Artie, I agree. I think I might walk with bears before I would ride a cycle without a helmet too. I jumped out of a plane once and loved it. However now that I have kids, I try to mitigate my risks a lot more these days.

[Arthur Morris]

Good plan Brian! I would kiss a bear before I would get on a motorcycle with a helmet....

[Mark Fuge]

Having been in a situation similar with a common Black Bear in Yosemite a few years ago, I would say move back and get the bear into the focal range of the lens in use. Which would be a safer distance than shown in the photo.

We were attending an outdoor Kodak presentation in Yosemite, a few years ago, with a group of about 20 tourist and a Kodak "instructor". During the talk, a mother bear and her cub entered the group and wondered around, checking the camera bags and backpacks for scents. Most just picked up their gear and stepped out of her way. The "instructor" went bananas. We were not scared, but concerned for all of the tourists there. Being a black bear, it was less threatening than the Alaskan Brown. But still not an everyday experience. These people did not have prior bear experiences, though thankfully they acted properly at that time.

I feel your guide was wrong to let the bear get that close to any of his tour members. No matter how much experience he had. It should only have been based on how much experience he knew that George had with the bears up close. He should not judge the incident on his knowledge, when there is the slightest chance that others are a "potential victim". It would be different if the bear suddenly came out of the woods and walked in front of the group. But it appears from all indications that there was a lead time to safely separate the bear from the tour members. That is what should have been done.

Luckily everything worked out well and the photo was shot, not the bear.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Again John,

re:

No more of those please. ;)

I was not very familiar with that show.... Else I would have cracked one!

That's exactly my concern. How would I or others in my tour group react? I sure hope I as well as everyone else in the group have steel nerves like George and you and stay put. But how can you be sure that I or the person next to me doesn't freak out?

I had never thought of that.... Good point. So far, everyone has followed instructions. Freeze. And Chuck is always there to remind you verbally: "Stay still. Stand your ground." (Always being maybe three times in 45 days or so.... Once it was me.)

And I totally understand that your group has been in a situation where there was no other option than to let the bear approach as there was no escape route. Maybe the responsibility of the guide and the tour organizer is to make sure that there always is an escape route.

If you ever get there you would realize that that is neither possible of the best way to go about things. If it were, you would spend all day walking away from some bears (while walking towards others, those possible not out in the open...)

Again, I don't have enough experience to give advice on how to handle such situation but it might be a thought for discussion.

Agree. You have to have been there.

And please don't get eaten next year!

I will do my best.

By the way, which bulletin you're talking about? Last one I received is #298.

I sent a Notes to the distribution list today. You can see the whole thing here: http://www.birdsasart.com/notes9.15.09.htm (http://www.birdsasart.com/notes9.15.09.htm)

ps to all: thanks as always for the civil exchanges.

[Arthur Morris]

I feel your guide was wrong to let the bear get that close to any of his tour members. No matter how much experience he had. It should only have been based on how much experience he knew that George had with the bears up close. He should not judge the incident on his knowledge, when there is the slightest chance that others are a "potential victim". It would be different if the bear suddenly came out of the woods and walked in front of the group. But it appears from all indications that there was a lead time to safely separate the bear from the tour members. That is what should have been done.

Who am I to argue with one who knows so much?

[Mark Fuge]

Who am I to argue with one who knows so much?

Just my view Artie, as with so many here.

It will be a justified discussion for many posts here and on other sites.

I would feel much safer if the guide stood between the bear and the tour. But guess that was not the case here. His choice that worked, however, this time. Hope his 20 years of luck continues.

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

But, Mark, how dare you and I offer our views? We are obviously just targets to be shot at when our opinions differ. There is only one way! ;) (before Artie falls over, this is meant to be tongue in cheek)

[Marina Scarr]

Who am I to argue with one who knows so much?

I spent quite some time on BPN tonight for the first time in a while b/c I have been working very long hours. I don't know what made me think things may be a little different after time away.

[Arthur Morris]

.I would feel much safer if the guide stood between the bear and the tour. But guess that was not the case here. His choice that worked, however, this time. Hope his 20 years of luck continues.

Great plan. You would be just as safe as Treadwell's girlfriend.

In your original post you wrote, "I feel your guide was wrong to let the bear get that close to any of his tour members."

That is an absurd statment: exactly how was he supposed to control the bear?

[Arthur Morris]

But, Mark, how dare you and I offer our views? We are obviously just targets to be shot at when our opinions differ. There is only one way! ;) (before Artie falls over, this is meant to be tongue in cheek)

You are way out of line here. It seems that you are proposing that the members should be allowed to voice there opinions and then the publisher should simply shut up. Am I not allowed to express my position and defend my opinions?

Now I will try for a third time to get you to answer this question: What in my original post made you feel that you or anyone else was "not entitled to comment"?

(You wrote, "... if this is the community that the ownership preaches then we are all entitled to comment as long as it is done in a civilized manner right?")

I really would appreciate your answers to the two questions in blue.

[Arthur Morris]

I spent quite some time on BPN tonight for the first time in a while b/c I have been working very long hours. I don't know what made me think things may be a little different after time away.

Please do explain what you mean. We do not appreciate insinuation here. Just say what you want to say honestly.

I really do not expect and answer as you have always chosen to ignore questions that I asked with regards to your posted images.

In addition, please explain the following actions taken by you and Maxis Gomez: driving at high speed up to a sensitive wading bird colony for the purpose of photography on a jet ski.

I eagerly await the answer to that question.

[Mark Fuge]

Great plan. You would be just as safe as Treadwell's girlfriend.

Unfortunately Artie, you may see the wrong side of the issue. That is your right, but in my past professional life (civil engineering) safety comes first.


The tour members paid for a rewarding and safe experience. You received those funds and past whatever on to the guide for him to provide you and your participants the same. He offered it based on his years of experience. However, did he deliver? You say yes, whole heartedly. Had this situation, for whatever reason, gone wrong would you tell the victim, their family and possibly the court the same?


George was put in the position of Treadwell's girlfriend, but with a different outcome ... thankfully.

In your original post you wrote, "I feel your guide was wrong to let the bear get that close to any of his tour members."

I agree with your qouting me on this. I do feel that it was wrong on his part. If there was any alternative, his years of experience should have provided it to the participants. If not, he should have done whatever it took to provide a safe experience.

That is an absurd statment: exactly how was he supposed to control the bear?

I was not there, and do not have all the facts, as you know. I trust that you have provided same. But given the photo you presented and the location of the event, there is a real possibility that something could have gone wrong, with the bear within feet of the participant. What should the guide and or tour leader do? Avoid the preceived possibility of the outcome. In other words, whatever is possible and proper.


Move between the subject and the bear? Yes, it puts them in harm's way, but isn't that what the particpant is entitied to for the money they paid? If not, what?


Have the participant slowly move away? Again, did the bear just show up at his feet, or did it slowly approach the group and should the group have been moving away?


The participant is responsible for their own safety first. However, by charging a fee to provide a service of guidance in a hostile environment, you and the guide also come into the safety chain. Right? or are you exempt by the waiver that is signed by all who partake. Don't count on it Artie ... some lawyer may disagree someday.


Lion Country Safari use to let the lions roam, among the cars, in a large fenced enclosure. Last year, they build an internal fenced enclosure to keep the lions and the cars separated. Maybe someone tired to pet one, who knows. But obviously the insurance company, or their lawyers, no longer wanted to wait for that to happen and so all of us that go there loose the experience that use to be unique and safe. Many other courts have ruled against waivers.


I'm not judging the actions of anyone involved, but hope you see the potential for a different scenario and hopefully avoid the future potential in your outtings. Safety should always precede the shot. Agree or disagree, that is how I view it personally.


As always,


Make A Great Day!

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Mark,
re:

I was not there, and do not have all the facts, as you know.

That has been one of my main points. Not only that folks were not there, but that they have never been there.....

I trust that you have provided same. But given the photo you presented and the location of the event, there is a real possibility that something could have gone wrong, with the bear within feet of the participant.

As I have said several times in this discussion, anyone who goes to Katmai is at risk of being attacked. What folks are not understanding is that when the bears are feeding on salmon or clams that the chances of attack are beyond miniscule. You are in much more danger driving to the store.

What should the guide and or tour leader do? Avoid the preceived possibility of the outcome. In other words, whatever is possible and proper.


Move between the subject and the bear? Yes, it puts them in harm's way, but isn't that what the particpant is entitied to for the money they paid? If not, what?

Again, and with all due respect, that is ridiculous. After the bear eats the guide, can you guess what it will do next?


Have the participant slowly move away? Again, did the bear just show up at his feet, or did it slowly approach the group and should the group have been moving away?

Again, again. If you follow that course, the group will spend the entire day walking away from bears.


The participant is responsible for their own safety first. However, by charging a fee to provide a service of guidance in a hostile environment, you and the guide also come into the safety chain. Right?

Correct. And I obviously have 100% confidence in the abilities of my guide to keep us safe. As I said, he does carry pepper spray. In my seven or so trips I have never seen him take it off his belt. He chooses NOT to carry a firearm (which many Katmai operators do).

or are you exempt by the waiver that is signed by all who partake. Don't count on it Artie ... some lawyer may disagree someday.

Agree.


Lion Country Safari use to let the lions roam, among the cars, in a large fenced enclosure. Last year, they build an internal fenced enclosure to keep the lions and the cars separated. Maybe someone tired to pet one, who knows. But obviously the insurance company, or their lawyers, no longer wanted to wait for that to happen and so all of us that go there lose the experience that use to be unique and safe. Many other courts have ruled against waivers.

Understood as above.


I'm not judging the actions of anyone involved, but hope you see the potential for a different scenario and hopefully avoid the future potential in your outings. Safety should always precede the shot. Agree or disagree, that is how I view it personally.

I am fine with your stating your opinion. In your original post, however, you did judge folks; that is what got my hackles up. Here is the part of what you wrote that I am referring to:

"I feel your guide was wrong to let the bear get that close to any of his tour members."

You were clearly judging the guide so your stating "I'm not judging the actions of anyone involved" just does not wash with the facts.

[Arthur Morris]

I received a suprisingly low four e-mail commenting on the Friendly Bear image. I am sharing them all with you below. It is interesting to see the huge divergence of opinion.

1: Hi-larious! Well played, sir. Best, Douglas Sisk

2: Artie, having been to Katmai myself annually for each of the past three years, I agree with you 1000% on the bears. To your points I would also add that I hate when people say it’s not natural to be so close to bears, and that bears “are suppose” to have a fear of humans. Clearly, the nearly blank slate ecosystem of Katmai refutes both points. The natural relationship between humans and bears is that bears are content to ignore small groups of humans who don’t get in their way, just the way species everywhere (like humans and pigeons) will peacefully share habitat without confrontation as long as they don’t need to compete for resources.

It’s depressing to see stories about “hazing” of black bears in urban areas like in Colorado – how will the hazed bear react next time there’s an unexpected encounter with a human? Instead of each party backing away slowly, the bear is likely to totally panic and possibly turn violent in defense.

Unfortunately our fear of predators is deeply engrained in our evolutionary history, so these attitudes are unlikely to change, but since you’re probably tired of hearing from negative people on the matter, I wanted you to know you have support on the subject. Brian Zeiler

3: Artie – You rock my world. Your patience and willingness / ability to entertain the man v bear discussion without getting nasty was fabulous. I love your practical, common sense approach to what you do. We’re all animals on this big blue ball. I hope to join you and the bears one year.

Meanwhile, I’m trying to make last minute plans to join you in Bosque again this year. Work is, as usual, making that difficult, but I hope to put it together in time. Best, Dan O’Leary

4: IMO, publishing that email was unnecessary. It was a private exchange between you and JR. I’m sure that he is not the only one who had reservations about the interaction with the bears. What was even more unnecessary was your final comment about big mouths and zero guts. You have a big mouth as well, but we overlook it because you don’t get paid to run it. Take photos, talk about technique, but leave your personal commentary, including insulting remarks, to others.

I do not require a response and you can publish my name if it makes you feel better. David Kilpatrick

[Mike Tracy]

Unless one has been to Katmai to view the bears they are not qualified in my eyes to pass judgment in regards to what happens when observing the bears in their environment.

The times I have photographed them along the shores of Hallo Bay they have approached unnervingly close to my wife and me. Federal regulations dictate that you can not approach them closer then 50 yards (I think) but the bears are allowed to approach as close as they wish. Knowing that going in you just have to hope for the best, trust in the knowledge of your guide and remember what was instructed to you about bear behaviors. I have also been told in no uncertain terms that if I didn't heed their every order the trip was over and we were flying back, no refunds.

A image I never felt was worth editing further but shows how close they have come to me (actually closer but I quit taking photos, sit still and watch ). 70-200mm, uncropped except to eliminate some bear do-do.

[David Smith]

Ah, I was wondering when you two would come to the party. I had been expecting your arrival. You should really subscribe to our Bulletins as I addressed these concerns today in a BAA Notes.


Artie:

I have been subscribing to your Bulletins long before this website was here. And I did read the e-mail exchange. I also realize that these are your tours and you set them up the way that you see fit and that is your right.. All I'm saying is that your image portrayed an extremely dangerous situation and could have resulted in a tragedy..

Later and love,

Dave

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

You are way out of line here. It seems that you are proposing that the members should be allowed to voice there opinions and then the publisher should simply shut up. Am I not allowed to express my position and defend my opinions?

Of course you are. Same as all members if done intelligently and in a civil manner. Correct? :) Should it not read their opinions and not there opinions though? ;)


Now I will try for a third time to get you to answer this question: What in my original post made you feel that you or anyone else was "not entitled to comment"?

There is nothing in the OP that says no one was entitled to comment. I merely made the statement after your comment "I was awaiting your arrival". That just reeked of sarcasm AFAIAC. Maybe it is my poor English knowledge and perception skills of this marvelous language that had me confused.


(You wrote, "... if this is the community that the ownership preaches then we are all entitled to comment as long as it is done in a civilized manner right?")

I really would appreciate your answers to the two questions in blue.

I know what I wrote. I have a very good memory! :)

[Arthur Morris]

Artie: I have been subscribing to your Bulletins long before this website was here. And I did read the e-mail exchange. I also realize that these are your tours and you set them up the way that you see fit and that is your right.. All I'm saying is that your image portrayed an extremely dangerous situation and could have resulted in a tragedy.. Later and love,Dave

With all due respect, the situation portrayed was a far less dangerous one than a photo of your getting in your car or crossing the street would be....

Also, see Mike Tracy's comments.

[Arthur Morris]

Oskosh,

Thanks for the brain typo correction (there/their).

re:

There is nothing in the OP that says no one was entitled to comment. I merely made the statement after your comment "I was awaiting your arrival". That just reeked of sarcasm AFAIAC. Maybe it is my poor English knowledge and perception skills of this marvelous language that had me confused.

Well I do not know what AFAIAC means but there is no need. I can see that our problems here arose because you assumed that you knew what I was saying but you did not. That often happens in e-mail exchanges (rather than in face to face conversations). Having done bird and nature photography for more than 26 years I pretty much know in advance which images/comments will draw the attention of folks who would like to shoot me down. So before I post them I take all factors into consideration: Was in doing something wrong? Dangerous? Do I have a good defense. I can see the potshots coming far in advance. So in my response to the two posts I was saying that tongue in cheek--I was suprised that it took so long. That is all that my comment meant. It was not at all meant to be sarcastic as you assumed. Are you Australians aware of what happens when you assume?

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

AFAIAC = as far as I am concerned

Just for the record my comment was not an attempt to shoot you down Artie! Of course I understand the reality and would love to go there sometime myself. I cannot wait to have a good lengthy chat with our possum coordinator to hear her trip report and see videos/photos.

Yes, I know assume. :) Good mate of mine. ;)

[Marina Scarr]

Please do explain what you mean. We do not appreciate insinuation here. Just say what you want to say honestly.
I really do not expect and answer as you have always chosen to ignore questions that I asked with regards to your posted images.
In addition, please explain the following actions taken by you and Maxis Gomez: driving at high speed up to a sensitive wading bird colony for the purpose of photography on a jet ski.
I eagerly await the answer to that question.

Hello Artie:
As I have expressed via PM to BPN owners in the past, your words toward readers have at times been condescending and harsh. Even though you personally responded to me that you were "working on it," your words to Mark are another example of your disregard for other people's feelings and opinions.

Your questions have been ignored b/c the ONLY questions you have ever posed are WHERE was my picture taken. Anyone can look at my pictures to confirm this fact. It is no secret that I only share sites with my friends for reasons which I made clear on a thread regarding this very topic which was deleted by BPN. If I miss a question posed by anyone which is unrelated to location, the only reason I may miss it is b/c I do not subscribe to even my own threads.

At no time did Maxis and I "speed" up to any sensitive area. I have been visiting the Alafia site since the 1980's via wave runner. Unfortunately, it is noisier than a pontoon boat, but not one bird flew away upon our approach. Furthermore, wave runners are welcome in the Alafia area. Anyone who knows me in the field and as an Audubon volunteer is aware of my love and respect for birds and nature.
Marina

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Marina,

re:

As I have expressed via PM to BPN owners in the past, your words toward readers have at times been condescending and harsh.

That is your opinion. I find it strange that you opt to take me to task for two or perhaps three comments that you did not care for while conveniently ignoring my other 9,320 or so posts.

Even though you personally responded to me that you were "working on it,"

I am always working on what some perceive as my bluntness. But I try never to be condescending or arrogant.

.... your words to Mark are another example of your disregard for other people's feelings and opinions.

Please let me know which of my words showed disregard for Mark's fellings and opinions. Folks are free to state their positions but I will defend my points when I believe that they are wrong ("The guide should have placed himself between the group and the bear...")

Your questions have been ignored b/c the ONLY questions you have ever posed are WHERE was my picture taken. Anyone can look at my pictures to confirm this fact. It is no secret that I only share sites with my friends for reasons which I made clear on a thread regarding this very topic which was deleted by BPN. If I miss a question posed by anyone which is unrelated to location, the only reason I may miss it is b/c I do not subscribe to even my own threads.

As someone who has made a career of sharing pretty much everything that I know I find your stance hard to stomach. It seems that many of your posts (such as this one) are written out of bitterness and negativity. Your choice not to subscribe to topic notifications would seem to reinforce that. Post a very few images but show up every once in a while to spread your bitterness. Nice touch.

At no time did Maxis and I "speed" up to any sensitive area. I have been visiting the Alafia site since the 1980's via wave runner. Unfortunately, it is noisier than a pontoon boat, but not one bird flew away upon our approach. Furthermore, wave runners are welcome in the Alafia area. Anyone who knows me in the field and as an Audubon volunteer is aware of my love and respect for birds and nature.

Your statement that "unfortunately it it noisier than a pontoon boat" is quite an understatement. It would seem that anyone who cares at all about the birds would stay far far away from sensitive nesting areas in a watercraft as loud as a jet ski. Many folks on the planet feel that jet skis represent noise pollution of the loudest kind and intrude on the rights of others trying to enjoy a day at the beach or on the water. I shall write to the folks at Audubon who manage the islands, ask them their position on jet skis in proximity of the nesting rookeries during the season, and get back to you here (should you bother to respond).

[Ed Cordes]

Well, I'll chime in here. I have been to Katmai and was surprised and thrilled to have the bear venture so close to us. We did nothing to encourage this, but it just happened. Our guides were professional and careful. The experience was outstanding!

RE the comments on posts, over my professional career (32 years as an eye doctor), I have learned the most from those who gave the most blunt and direct criticism. This type of input means the person making the criticism cares enough to tell you the truth. The only way to achieve excellence is to recognise mediocrity. As generally type "A" personalities both doctors and aspiring excellent photographers are often too emotionally involved with the decisions they have already made to recognize the need for improvement.

This is what separates BPN form the others. Constructive input will improve all of us.

[Arthur Morris]

Ákos,

First you wrote:

"I wonder what would happen if the 20-year attack free period suddenly ended? These are wild animals and people still tend to forget that. Who would get sued in that case? :D

Then you wrote:

"I am glad no one gets (had ever been) attacked. I look forward to all the fanfare and fireworks when someone (God forbid) finally does though! :( "

That was followed by:

"When your *** does get a chewing I will be first to say "I told you so!"."

And then:

"But, Mark, how dare you and I offer our views? We are obviously just targets to be shot at when our opinions differ."

And then when I wrote that I had been expecting the potshots you wrote:

"Just for the record my comment was not an attempt to shoot you down Artie!"

The first four comments above were clear attempts to shoot me down. All of them were negative. At least have the guts to stand behind your remarks and their (obvious) intent.

[Matt Reeves]

http://www.pbase.com/chewie70/image/100411363/original.jpg

Hi everyone! I rarely post here due to time constraints, but do love this forum. A friend of mine had emailed this link, so I thought that I would shed some light on the subject. First off, I have to agree with Artie and some of the others here. If you have never been to Katmai (especially when the Salmon are running), you can't even start to comprehend what goes on their. Getting close to bears their, is not by choice. You have no choice! When the Salmon are their, as many as 100+ bears show up, within a couple of square miles. They are literally everywhere, and have only one thing on their mind, Salmon! We spend most of my time in the back country their, and have had 5-6 bears converging on us at once, with nowhere to go. They have Salmon on the brain, and will literally walk through you to get to them. We have also had mothers become so comfortable with our presence, that after a few hours, have started walking their yearlings over to us. This is most definitely when you go shoot somewhere else! The point is, that nothing these bears are doing, shows that they are associating people with food, or worse yet, recognizing people as easy prey. As long as you play by natures rules, these bears are just comfortable and care free with your presence, and are doing what bears do. Viewing them in the wild is a thing of beauty, as long as you remember a few things; Never do it alone, never carry food, avoid having the scent of food and fragrances on you or your clothing (this includes deodorants, perfumes, ect..), be very vocal in a calm voice (it relaxes them and makes them comfortable with your presence), and no matter what, remain absolutely calm, should you have a close encounter (if you show stress and fear, the bear will likely react to it). I hope this was helpful, and sheds a little more light on the subject.

Matt

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Matt, Well said. And thanks. The image you posted is showing only as a red X.

[Matt Reeves]

Hi Art, I'm not sure how to get the image to post. I inserted the link, but nothing. Any ideas?

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Hi Art, I'm not sure how to get the image to post. I inserted the link, but nothing. Any ideas?

Matt, I fixed the link. If you link from pbase you have to type /original.jpg after the image address.

[Matt Reeves]

Thanks for the help and info Axel.

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks Axel! And thanks again Matt. (You needed to get right down in the mud to minimize that white water. Cute momma and baby though and a cute pose by the little one).

[Matt Reeves]

Thanks for the advice Art. Btw... This was a very specially cub, as he/she was gimp. Not sure if you can see the mass around the front ankle, but apparently it was severely fractured the previous year, when it was a spring cub. Even though the mother would never leave it's side, it's amazing that it has survived the males this long. I really hope that I have the opportunity to shoot him again next year.

[Phil Ertel]

I usually avoid this type of discussion. However I thought I would share my experience. I must confess that I am not an expert and these are only my opinions; not fact. I have only been to Katmai once and that was a few years ago. I believe it was the year after Timothy Treadwell met his demise. Based on this experience and a combined total of approximately two month time spent backpacking in grizzly/brown bear country I find that Artie’s experience and opinions reflect those of mine concerning this topic.
From the first moment our plane landed on the pebble beach we were in close proximity of bears. There were bears several digging for clams in the mud flats exposed by the low tide. My group walked out into the mud flats and knelt down and observed/photograph bears claming for some time. Three bears came to within 10-15 yards. Once we had a clear path to leave we hiked to a grassy meadow where bear spend time eating sedge grass. When we first arrived there was one bear present. We position ourselves on a small elevated spot and settled down for a fascinating day of bear watching. At no time did we approach a bear. However several did approach us. Here as on the mud flats the bear came as close as 10 yards. The bears all appeared relaxed and calm. Most simply seemed to ignore us and concentrated on eating and sleeping. A couple did pause shortly to glance at us and quickly returned to consuming the sedge grass. It has been suggested that perhaps we should have move away from the bear as they approached. In our situation that was not possible as most of the time we were surrounded by bears and any retreat would have had us approaching a bear. It is one thing to have a bear approach you; it is an entirely different interaction when you approach them. There were as many as thirteen bears in the meadow with us at one time. At no time while in the vicinity of these bears did I feel threatened. To be perfectly honest I was more concerned with the plane ride to and from Homer. I also must add that driving on the Alaskan roads caused more adrenalin depletion that did my encounter with the bears.
In areas such as Katmai, when food is plentiful if one follows the rule and instructions of an experienced guide the threat to man (sorry if this offends any feminist) and bears is low. If the rules and instructions are followed there isn’t any real interaction just an occasional close proximity of man and bear. It was my experience that our presence did not alter the bear’s behavior. Is there a risk; most certainly. It is however my opinion that the risk is minimal. Furthermore, it is my opinion that bear watching provides exposure and education on the natural wonder of these animals and their environment which elicits support for the protection of both. I am not one that believes man should withdraw from experiencing/observing nature. I do believe we should be respectful and due our up most to protect/preserve and not to cause undue stress. Again, in my opinion this does not mean nature should be isolated from man or vise versa.
Therefore, considering my experiences and those of others that I know who have experienced this wonder, I do not believe that Artie’s actions and resulting picture was irresponsible or inexcusable. One of my wishes is to get to experience the bears of Katmai at least one more time in my life.

[Grace Scalzo]

Two questions for my own edification. Why was this bear distracted from eating long enough to come over and sniff George? That would have concerned me. Secondly, Artie mentioned to Matt that a lower angle would have been better, and Phil also mentions kneeling down when photographing/observing. My instincts would tell me to not appear as a small target to a bear and I do note that George is standing up. Thanks for your comments.

[Matt Reeves]

Regarding the the sniffing incident, I can't say because I wasn't their, but can assume. A bear has a sense of smell, like no other. I watched a ranger catch a Salmon one evening, immediately bleed it in the water, bag it, and rush water against the shore (it's the Katmai way of doing things). At that time, there were no bears seen, anywhere. The ranger left, and about 10-15 minutes later, a Grizzly came from way across the oxbow, possibly 1/2 mile away. The bear walked up to the exact spot that the ranger had caught the fish and bled it, and starting digging. I was absolutely amazed, at what I had just witnessed.

Regarding myself shooting from a high stance. I had 2 other bears in the water to my right, 1 about 20 feet behind me in the brush, and 1 about 20-30 feet to my immediate left, eating grass. For safety reasons, I chose to remain as erect as possible, as I did not want to put myself at their level, nor be in a position where if I had to move, I wouldn't be able to.

[Ákos Lumnitzer]

Artie

If me seeing it how I see it from the other side of the world without ever being there then saying what I did and how I did implies negative and gives you the feeling that I am shooting you down from your perspective then that is how you want to view it IMHO. I can tell you that even in person I would say the exact same thing and when I said "if you get your *** chewed I'd be the first to say I told you so" I would have a cheesy grin on my face as I'd tell you so really no harm intended just my smart-*** reply that I would say to any mate, which I guess you're not. Your reply to Mark Fuge "Who am I to argue with someone who knows so much?" appears nothing but plain arrogant as far as I read and surely many others would yet many would never dare tell you.


I think the biggest issue here is that you are the "great" Arthur Morris, professional bird photographer and educator, yet when somebody says something you find not to your liking you turn it around and make them look bad - not that it bothers me how you or anyone here sees me, my friends know me better and that is all that matters at the end of the day to me. Funny how you said to Marina Scarr about her not replying to your 9320-odd other questions I do have one question to you here (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40264) in pane 29 which you somehow missed and I am positive that it was missed out of convenience and not oversight, because you do not miss anything. Funnily it was very close to the time when you contacted me via e-mail and addressed me as 'Yo momma' (you would address your friends like that not a complete stranger) or something like that and then went on about deleting a post of mine where I referred to an Aussie photographer playing the calls of an endangered local species call to get it close and you said to say the name out as people will work out who it was or say his/her name yet you NEVER mentioned who those people were. Now that I read what you wrote to Marina Scarr above I can put two and two together. Nice.

I think I will look elsewhere for inspiration from now as I spent way to much of my energies and efforts here for nothing. :D

Have a nice day Sir! :)

[Arthur Morris]

re:

Your reply to Mark Fuge "Who am I to argue with someone who knows so much?" appears nothing but plain arrogant as far as I read and surely many others would yet many would never dare tell you.

In Mark's post

Originally Posted by Mark Fuge http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/fusion/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?p=343309#post343309)
I feel your guide was wrong to let the bear get that close to any of his tour members. No matter how much experience he had. It should only have been based on how much experience he knew that George had with the bears up close. He should not judge the incident on his knowledge, when there is the slightest chance that others are a "potential victim". It would be different if the bear suddenly came out of the woods and walked in front of the group. But it appears from all indications that there was a lead time to safely separate the bear from the tour members. That is what should have been done.

he stated plainly that the guide was wrong. He stated clearly "This is what should have been done."

To me, that is arrogant, especially coming from someone who has never been to Katmai.


I think the biggest issue here is that you are the "great" Arthur Morris, professional bird photographer and educator, yet when somebody says something you find not to your liking you turn it around and make them look bad - not that it bothers me how you or anyone here sees me, my friends know me better and that is all that matters at the end of the day to me.

As I have said many times, I will take anyone to task for statements that I see as incorrect. I often accept criticisms and suggestions.

Funny how you said to Marina Scarr about her not replying to your 9320-odd other questions

Funny how that is not at all what I said. If you have any energy left, you might want to try re-reading it.

I do have one question to you here (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40264) in pane 29 which you somehow missed and I am positive that it was missed out of convenience and not oversight, because you do not miss anything. Funnily it was very close to the time when you contacted me via e-mail and addressed me as 'Yo momma' (you would address your friends like that not a complete stranger) or something like that and then went on about deleting a post of mine where I referred to an Aussie photographer playing the calls of an endangered local species call to get it close and you said to say the name out as people will work out who it was or say his/her name yet you NEVER mentioned who those people were.

???????????????????????????????????????????

Now that I read what you wrote to Marina Scarr above I can put two and two together. Nice.

Funny that I have no idea what in the world you are either talking about or inferring. And yes, I thought that you were a friend until you started taking potshots at me here. And even funnier that you are choosing to ally yourself with Marina who has come off as nothing but negative here.

I think I will look elsewhere for inspiration from now as I spent way to much of my energies and efforts here for nothing.

Super.

[Arthur Morris]

ps: When I originally read this: "I do have one question to you here (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40264) in pane 29" I thought that you were referring to pane 29 here (in this post), that is why I was confused. When I followed your link, I did understand what you meant. I did not answer that question as I did not want to start a war with the Maxis/Marina coalition. At the time, Maxis was involved in a spam advertising attack against BPN.

In addtion, the huge difference as I recall it is that in your post, you stated something to the effect that "everybody in Australia would know who the offending party was." In my post, nobody but James and I knew anything and at that time I chose to keep it that way.

If you have any more energy to waste, you can let me know if I am wrong about that.

[Kiran Khanzode]

How the puck did the female/mother bear get this close to the photographer??? Have you explained that to us, Arthur ?

What is the photographer's reaction to all this (the encounter and this thread) ? I want to know that more than anything....is he a member/participant here? I soooo want to hear his views on what's going on in this thread.

Glad this did not end up into a "Sigfried and Roy - Part Deux".

Btw, Art, you asked JR a question after he said he did not want to debate and you also brought up Treadwell...I guess that was enough for him to take the bait and reply back :-). You certainly did get the debate, though . ;-)

And, it's just sad to see you use words like 'big mouth'... can't you keep it civil, bro ? Or just be plain arrogant..if you like, but not guess someone's character and gut level.

For me, JR won the debate, btw. Had someone questioned my guts and mouth size..I would have lost "it". ;-)

[Arthur Morris]

KK,

re:

How the puck did the female/mother bear get this close to the photographer???

It walked.

Have you explained that to us, Arthur ?

I guess that I have now. I had assumed that everyone would have figured out that the bear walked up to the photographer. (Have you read the posts by the folks who have actually been to Katmai?)

What is the photographer's reaction to all this (the encounter and this thread) ?

I am guessing that George felt a mixture of fear and excitement.

I want to know that more than anything....is he a member/participant here?

Not that I know of.

I soooo want to hear his views on what's going on in this thread.

I will send him the link. After that, it is up to him.

Glad this did not end up into a "Sigfried and Roy - Part Deux".

Me too, but do understand that this is a commonplace occurence.

Btw, Art, you asked JR a question after he said he did not want to debate and you also brought up Treadwell...I guess that was enough for him to take the bait and reply back :-).

Guess so. I have taken the bait here a few times too.

You certainly did get the debate, though . ;-)

And, it's just sad to see you use words like 'big mouth'... can't you keep it civil, bro? Or just be plain arrogant..if you like, but not guess someone's character and gut level. For me, JR won the debate, btw. Had someone questioned my guts and mouth size..I would have lost "it". ;-)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[Arthur Morris]

Hi Grace,

re:

Two questions for my own edification. Why was this bear distracted from eating long enough to come over and sniff George?

I do not know. At times, the bears can be curious. Perhaps as I mentioned before George had the odor of halibut on his clothing from the afternoon before. But perhaps not as we pretty much did not handle the fish at all. So my best answer is that I do not know.

And I am not sure that distracted is an accurate word. When a dog is being walked and it stops to sniff a fire hydrant is it being distracted or is it just being curious or is it just doing what it is genetically programmed to do?

That would have concerned me. Secondly, Artie mentioned to Matt that a lower angle would have been better, and Phil also mentions kneeling down when photographing/observing. My instincts would tell me to not appear as a small target to a bear and I do note that George is standing up.

We have had bears approach closely while we were standing and while we were kneeling. The important things are to stay still, let the bear (or bears) know that you are there by talking to them (the guide usually does the talking), and most importantly, not to run away.

Thanks for your comments.

YAW. I have an image on the office machine that might help illustrate several of the points above. I will try to find it and post it.

[Dan Brown]

Wow, tons being said here! I would like to chime in with my 2cents. Years ago I was invited to travel to Denali NP, Alaska with a pro nature photographer. In prep for this trip, I did a little research regarding the bears in AK. I asked my friend for some books on the subject and he promptly loaned me a couple. The books were riveting, but they were really not what I expected, as they were compilations of ALL the bear attacks in AK history!! After reading this stuff, I was freaked out about being eaten by a grizzly! Of course in Denali the bear density isn’t anything like Katmai (I believe, but I’ve never been to Katmai). Although I’ve not been to Katmai, I’ve talked with a few photographers and fishermen who have and I believe that I’ve even seen a documentary on TV showing the situation with the bears being everywhere and coming very close to the observers/photographers (this might not have been Katmai but seems to me that the situation was the same). So, I decided a long time ago that the Katmai type experience was not for me!!

With the above being said, when I saw the “friendly bear” image here, my first reaction was “Oh, this is one of those situations where the bears can and do get really close, way too close for me, THE BIG CHICKEN”. But, I didn’t have the reaction that the leaders of this group had handled the situation wrong because my perception of the environment was pretty much as has been described above by Artie and others with experience at Katmai (the bears are all around you and doing their thing). I believe that the only way this situation could have been more safe for the photographers would have been if they had opted not to signup for the workshop!! To me, it’s like not choosing to skydive or bungie jump, you should know what you are getting into!

One thing learned in this thread (among many!!) is if you sign up for the Katmai experience, you now know what you are getting into!

I hope this post hasn’t been to rambling?
Dan Brown, THE BIG CHICKEN!!

[Cliff Beittel]

. . . One thing learned in this thread (among many!!) is if you sign up for the Katmai experience, you now know what you are getting into! . . .
Dan,

For a great review of bear attacks in Alaska generally (there have been quite a few) versus in areas of high bear concentration, see:

http://www.polarbearsinternational.org/rsrc/scientists/ursus_16_-_bears,_habituation,_humans.pdf

(Don't ignore the link because it's Polar Bears Intl.--this is a study on Brown Bear behavior.)

What the study shows is that Brown Bears are far less aggressive, both toward each other and people, in highly-concentrated feeding situations like Katmai, with the odd result that the more bears you see, the less likely you are to be attacked by one. Even within Katmai, I'd guess that the situation with Artie's tour is safer than usual, given that there is a large group of people generally sticking pretty close to a guide carrying pepper spray. At Brooks Camp, on the other hand, once you cross the ranger-controlled bridge just outside of camp, you are on your own. Pepper spray, though legal in the park, is not permitted by TSA even in checked luggage. Shoot late at the falls, and you can easily find yourself walking half a mile through dark woods alone--potentially a much more dangerous situation given that the bears use the same trail. Even at Brooks, though, there have been only two injuries (mentioned in the above paper) and I believe one other minor incident with no injury (a bear essentially ran over someone in its haste to be elsewhere). With over 300 people present at midday, some of them idiots (I heard one threaten to punch a small, older, female volunteer if she again barred him from getting to the bridge because of a bear on the trail), I wouldn't be at all surprised if there is a more serious incident; Brooks' overall record, even if/when that happens, will still be incredible.

While Katmai hadn't had any fatal maulings until the deaths of Treadwell and Amy Huegenard, Brown Bears have killed elsewhere in Alaska. In places where bears are not accustomed to encountering people, they are far more likely to react aggressively when surprised. Safe distances there are much larger.

The above paper mentions the research of Dr. Stephen Herrero, who has analized virtually all bear attacks in North America. Herrero's book, Bear Attacks, Their Causes and Avoidance, is a great read, even if not essential for a coastal Katmai trip.

[Arthur Morris]

Thanks Cliff. Above is the image that I promised to find for Grace. It pretty much sums up the situation. The seated guy is our guide.

[Arthur Morris]

Note to all. Until the few folks who had actually been to Katmai began commenting here I was feeling pretty much being hung out to dry. If I offended anyone personally with my remarks, please accept my apology. Note: I will always feel free to disagree but will try to do so in a more civil manner than I did here at times.

[Arthur Morris]

ps to KK: whaddya have against Meatloaf?

[Axel Hildebrandt]

I find this thread can really help people make an informed decision whether Katmai is for them or not. Dan's post sums it up nicely.

Cliff, thanks for the extra information and link.

[Grace Scalzo]

Thanks for that image, Artie. It really made me laugh with the bear striding off to mind his business with the guide sitting there. This ended up being an educational thread.