I Borrowed A Friend's 5D Mark 2

[Ed Cordes]

Some of you know that I am desperately in need of replacing my trusty old 1D Mark 2 (non N). I have considered the 1D MK3 and the 50D, but since for at least the next few months have the opportunity to wait I have held off on either. My time frame is to have a new camera by the Holiday season so I can test it prior to an Africa trip in late February.

Well i borrowed a friends 5DMK2 and learned the following.

The detail in the images from the newer cameras is amazing. I really like the deep color tones and overall file quality. FF is nice, but for less than 50% of my shooting is important. I didn't miss the 1.3 crop of my MK2 as much as I thought as I could crop the 21 mp files to be larger than those of my 1D MK2 and still fill the frame as desired.

I really missed a fast frame rate. The less than 4fps of the 5DMK2 is just not up to what I need. I also missed the ability to AF at f8. So my 500 with 2X TC could not AF and since the camera is FF the loss of reach is aggravating. A 1.6 crop would mostly make up for this allowing my 500 to AF with a 1.4 TC.

So, a long post to say that I will not be buying a 5D MK2, but will either get a 50/60D (when the 60D is released)or the soon (I hope) to be released 1D MK4. I believe the detail in the files of the 50/60D and any future 1D will equal the 5DMK2 although not give the large print size in its native resolution.

I did not try the movie mode as it is not a factor to me at this time.

I am just posting my thoughts as they may be of interest to others.

[Fabs Forns]

Thanks for your thoughts, Ed. I can feel your pain, because the full frame of the D3 kills me sometimes, although it does have a great frame rate.
I'm also interested in the release of the 1d4, if and when...

[Axel Hildebrandt]

Thanks for your thoughts, Ed. I can feel your pain, because the full frame of the D3 kills me sometimes, although it does have a great frame rate.
I'm also interested in the release of the 1d4, if and when...

The rumor mill is pretty busy with the Mark IV, claiming an even higher frame rate than the Mark III, 1.3x crop and 16MP. We will see if this is wishful thinking. :)

[Ed Cordes]

Thanks for the input. 16 MP on a 1.3 crop is more pixels per square mm than the 5DMK2, so the detail should be great if the noise is controlled. I forgot to mention that the camera I borrowed had the vertical grip. I would rather have it than not, but it is just not as "together" as the 1D series being built around it from the beginning.

[arash_hazeghi]

Ed,
I have both MKII and 50D, I don't want to disappoint you but there in no comparison in IQ between 5DMKII and 50D, maybe the reason why I don't like my 50D IQ is that I keep comparing it to the MKII :eek: but yah, MKII is not a birding camera because of AF and fps (I was totally OK with reach which is the same as my old 20D and more than 1DMKII)

[arash_hazeghi]

Thanks for your thoughts, Ed. I can feel your pain, because the full frame of the D3 kills me sometimes, although it does have a great frame rate.
I'm also interested in the release of the 1d4, if and when...

So you don't like your D300?

[Christopher C.M. Cooke]

Well I am now using my MKII in cojunction with my MKIII for birding.

I use the MKII with the 300 f/4 for wide shots and the MKIII + 1.4X for longer shots. I generally move to the MKII when I anticipate a landing or take off as it gives me the lattitude of width to play with and with that I can cope with the 3.9 fps but it is ttill a work in progress but some stunning images have resulted.

! problem is the need to resize large images to post on the net as most of my great images are not cropable and I find they lose detail when I downsize them, any suggestions?

[arash_hazeghi]

Well I am now using my MKII in cojunction with my MKIII for birding.

I use the MKII with the 300 f/4 for wide shots and the MKIII + 1.4X for longer shots. I generally move to the MKII when I anticipate a landing or take off as it gives me the lattitude of width to play with and with that I can cope with the 3.9 fps but it is ttill a work in progress but some stunning images have resulted.

! problem is the need to resize large images to post on the net as most of my great images are not cropable and I find they lose detail when I downsize them, any suggestions?

Well when you reduce 20 mpixel to 1 mpixel it is natural that you can't see all the detail :D

[John Chardine]

Well when you reduce 20 mpixel to 1 mpixel it is natural that you can't see all the detail :D

At the same size on a computer screen, an image that has been properly downsized and sharpened, and fits on the screen at 100% should look a lot better than the original which has to be squished into that same space by your viewing software and/or graphics card.

[arash_hazeghi]

At the same size on a computer screen, an image that has been properly downsized and sharpened, and fits on the screen at 100% should look a lot better than the original which has to be squished into that same space by your viewing software and/or graphics card.

John,
The visual appearance of the image will sure improve because you hide all the artifacts and effects of demosaicing but you certainly lose detail and resolution, here is an example, top is resized and sharpened bottom is 100%

http://www.stanford.edu/~ahazeghi/Photos/birds/test.jpg

The downsampled image looks crisper but it doesn't have the details visible in the original, look at the mesh or wire sub frame for example, I guess this is what Topher meant....This is with 12 mpixel D700 with MKII you have so much micro detail and it's all gone when you resize!

[Christopher C.M. Cooke]

The downsampled image looks crisper but it doesn't have the details visible in the original, look at the mesh or wire sub frame for example, I guess this is what Topher meant....This is with 12 mpixel D700 with MKII you have so much micro detail and it's all gone when you resize! <!-- / message --> My point exactly. Not much one can do is there?

[Roger Clark]

Ed,

I have a 1D Mark II, and a 5D Mark II. I understand your concerns. I went to Tanzania in January with these two cameras and 500 f/4 L IS plus other lenses. I had the 5DII only 3 weeks. I started the trip with the 1DII as the primary wildlife camera and the 5DII with small lenses for landscapes. I would occasionally switch and put the 5DII on the 500. After a about 3 days it became very clear the 5DII produced simply stunning images that blew away the 1DII images. Both cameras had about the same poor focus rate (I was imaging mostly large animals and a few birds). The 1DII had some frames close to focus, but a little off, I would say about 95% perfect focus. When the 5DI missed focus, it was way off, but the total of perfect focus was again about 95%. Note I haven't done precise statistics here, just my qualitative assessment; the point is both cameras gave a very high great focus rate. After the 3 days, I make the 5DII the primary camera on the 500 and the 1DII was for grab shots with shorter lenses. When I wanted to do a landscape, I took the 5DII off the 500 and used it for landscapes too. If I was going back soon, I would take two 5DIIs.

Several times I instinctively put on the 2x TC on the 500 with the 5DII and then was frustrated at no focus. That was something I adapted with use. I did miss the frame rate, but I think the megapixels is more important and I adapted to the frame rate, framing at peak action. As usual, my failure to get a shot was almost always my reaction time and not the camera's fault. Of course those small fast birds are really tough, regardless of camera.

Here is a link to my 2009 images. I have about 600 I want to process, but no time so there are only a few. Most with the 5DII. The detail in such large megapixel images is really stunning and makes beautiful big enlargements.
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.africa_2009

For comparison, here are images from my 2007 trip almost all images with the 1DII:
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.africa_2007

Regarding cropped sensors, the detail on subject has nothing to do with the crop factor, and everything to do with pixel spacing. So the 5DII has 6.4 micron pixel spacing, and the 50D is 4.7 microns. So the ratio indicating resolution on subject (e.g. pixels on subject for a given lens) is not the crop factor ratio, but the pixel pixel ratio. The 50D will deliver 6.4/4.7 = 1.36 times more pixels (line measurement) on a subject with the same lens. But the 5DII pixels, being larger, produces images with less apparent noise and has higher ISO performance.

The HD video is pretty cool too.

When a 1DIV comes out I will probably replace my 1DII.

Roger

[Ed Cordes]

Roger, thanks for the detailed reply. I have reviewed you two galleries and certainly the newer camera has far superior files. I agree that when it comes down to it I want the highest IQ when we go to Tanzania in February. Your post has given me a lot to think about. Remembering my last trip to Tanzania I only used a fast frame rate a few times. The F8 no focus issue is a large one, but not a definite deal killer. Bottom line is I really want the 1DMK4 when it is released, but may have to get an intermediate body and possibly sell it after the fact. I don't know if I want to carry the capital investment of a 5DMK2 and a 1DMK4 at the same time. So, if I get a 5DMK2 I would mot likely sell it when the 1 series is available.

[Roger Clark]

Hi Ed,

What would you carry as backup? I too hope to see a 1D4, but I would love it to be a 20+ megapixel full frame, 10 frames/sec. Remember, you can do f/8 and do live view focus with the 5D2, just the subject has to be static. I wish I had done that a couple of times with leopards in trees, but I hadn't learned that on the camera at that time. A 1D4 and a backup 5D2 would be a nice combo.

Is there something wrong with your 1DII?

What outfitter will you be going with?

Roger

[Ed Cordes]

Roger, nothing wrong with the 1DII, but it is old enough and enough shutter actuations that I don't 100% trust it. However, it would be my back up to a new camera. My wife's 40D is sometimes producing cleaner files and better color right off the card that I have "file envy" when we process our images.

You really have me thinking along the lines of a 5DII.

We will be going to Tanzania in Feb with Andy Biggs.

[Roger Clark]

You could always have the shutter replaced (soon so you get some time on the new one).

Hmmm... not sure which outfitter Andy uses. If it's Roy Safaris, say hello to Sanjay for me. I plan on going back in 2011. This last trip I did the planning and did a private group with family and friends.

Roger

[Ed Cordes]

Andy uses Thompson Safaris. We went with Andy in 2006, but his wife was having a baby so Greg Downing of NSN led the trip. We had a great time with lots of picture opportunities. My skills are better now so I am looking to do even better. Besides, this will most likely be my last trip to Africa. I am 62 and there are a lot more places to see yet! ;)

[Alfred Forns]

Hi Ed there is no substitute for a 1D series The image quality of the 5DMk2 is awesome but the slow frame rate and AF gives me trouble. It would all depend on the application.

Have not had extensive use of the new 5DMK2 but the AF seemed to be just like the old one, had one. Did make some excellent images of skimmers in flight but the keeper rate was very low. At that time I was comparing a 1DMk2 and 5D Hands down the 5D was lagging behind in the AF department. Did not carry out any tests just shot and observed results. Understand the new camera has very similar AF performance.

[Andy Biggs]

I am going to throw a few random thoughts into the mix, based on using about every Canon camera since 2002.

* Have you considered buying a used 1DsMkII? You may get the best blend between autofocus, file size, noise and frames per second.
* 50D and 5DMkII autofocus is just 'ok', and only 1 series cameras will give you decent autofocus.
* If you are only interested in using the camera for our safari together, autofocus won't be that big of a deal. * If you are interested in using the camera past our safari, and if you are interested in shooting birds in flight and other challenging autofocus situations, I definitely recommend a 1-series camera.

Just some random thoughts. Your experience is one of the reasons why I switched to Nikon 6 months ago. I wanted the best blend between autofocus, frames per second, file size, quality and the 200-400mm lens. What makes the move to Nikon so wonderful is the great autofocus speed and accuracy on their D300 and D700 bodies.

[Ed Cordes]

Thanks again for all the input. Al, I know the 1 series has the best AF which is why I really want a 1D4. However, for the Feb trip I want something if the new body is not available.

Andy, switching to Nikon is not an option. Too expensive for me and too much hassle. I truly believe that Canon and Nikon will trade places every few years as Top Dog. I have thought about a 1DsMK2, but am a bit shy of getting one with issues and a lot of shutter actuations,and it still has only 4 fps. For about the same $ I would opt for the 5DMK2.

The 5DMK2 seems to offer the file quality I want. I am deciding on the sacrifice of speed and AF at f8. It may hold me over until the 1D4 comes out and I can decide if I want to keep it or sell it. Certainly if I consider the next XXD series I will want to hear reviews of the file quality of the new body before jumping.

[arash_hazeghi]

Ed,

Why not get a 1DMKIII?

[Ed Cordes]

Ed,

Why not get a 1DMKIII?

Arash, I have thought about it. In fact last spring I was in B&H in NY and had the camera in my hands. However, I just couldn't pull the trigger knowing that there is a possibility of the 1D4 out in time. The questions about AF accuracy certainly entered into my thinking. Reselling the camera later may be tougher. Still, not totally off the table, but not my highest option.

I know I am schizophrenic about this!!!

[arash_hazeghi]

Arash, I have thought about it. In fact last spring I was in B&H in NY and had the camera in my hands. However, I just couldn't pull the trigger knowing that there is a possibility of the 1D4 out in time. The questions about AF accuracy certainly entered into my thinking. Reselling the camera later may be tougher. Still, not totally off the table, but not my highest option.

I know I am schizophrenic about this!!!

Ed,
As of today there is no 1D4, it's all rumors, no one except for Canon knows when and if it will come out and yet after MK III I guess should wait six months into release anyways making sure there are no major bugs :D (early adapters always pay for these things!). You can get one from B&H and if the AF isn't up to your expectation just return it. It's a pity if you miss a killer shot in the Safari, then you will always look back and wish you had the better camera. MKIII is still cheaper than 5DII+50D.