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Julian Mole
07-09-2009, 01:45 PM
Hi,

I have been trying to capture a decent photo of a Barn Owl for a number of weeks, I've tried at a couple of venues locally but I have come up against a number of issues.

1) Lens; As the owls usually come out in the fading light (of evening) the maximum aperture of my 400mm f/5.6 lens means I have to increase the ISO and reduce the shutter speed, even with the lens tripod mounted

2) Settings; as the light fades should I stick with ISO 1600 when the required shutter speed gets to below 1/100 sec, or switch to 3200 ?
(Because the result of increasing the exposure in RAW conversion would be as noisy, if not noisier wouldn't it.)

3) Method; I have tried a mobile set up (waiting till I spot the owl then try to get as close as possible before attempting a photo, usually in flight) and also a static approach (positioning myself close to a post which I seen the bird use a number of times).

4) Location; choice of venue is difficult as sometimes the bird/s turn up and sometimes they don't (or they do but not until it's far too dark to even attempt a photo)

5) Using Flash as the main lighting in twilight; This seems to be an ethical issue to me.
Is it worth getting a good photo at the cost of an owl losing it's dark adaption, and therefore, potentially, harming it's ability to hunt for the next 30-40 minutes? (the amount of time said for it to recover it's dark adaption).

So if anyone could offer some help or advice/ share experiences that would be great.

Cheers,

Julian.

PS. Below is the best effort I've managed so far, it was taken at ISO 1600 but was so underexposed that I had to boost it by +2 stops in RAW conversion (Hand held, f/5.6, 1/500 sec).

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/Julian_Mole/IMG_7851-nr-crop-resize-.jpg

Doug Brown
07-09-2009, 02:32 PM
Hi Julian. You've got a challenging situation on your hands. What body are you using? I think you've got some good ideas on how to deal with the low light. Probably the best thing I can suggest is faster glass (300 f/2.8, 400 f/4 DO, or 500 f/4). It's nearly impossible to get good quality flight images when a proper exposure yields a shutter speed of 1/125 at ISO 1600. Better to go for perched birds when the light gets that low.

The other thing you can hope for is a little luck. When the stars are in alignment and you get some decent light, Barn Owls can give you some spectacular images.

http://birdwhisperer.smugmug.com/photos/449498516_rtzrs-O.jpg

Julian Mole
07-09-2009, 05:15 PM
Wow Doug, Great Shot!! I can only hope for one half as good! :-)

To answer your question I am currently using a Canon 20D, which is more noisy at ISO 1600 than the 40 or 50D, but a definite improvement over the 300D I had before!

As for lenses I'm stuck with the 400 5.6 and 100-400 zoom for the time being, as I completely spent out on large purchases (I have to pay these two off first!).

So, I guess I'll just have to stick at it and hope for that bit of luck you were taking about.

Out of interest; for perched shots what would be the lowest adviseable shutter speed ?

Thanks for your help,

Julian.

Jim Neiger
07-09-2009, 05:59 PM
Julian,

I have a hunch that Barn Owls may come out earlier in the day if there has just been a heavy downpoor of rain. This often brings insects, frogs, and toads out in the open, particularly in roadways. If you have a road near the Owls that has little traffic you may be able to photograph them in stronger light following a heavy rain.

Sabyasachi Patra
07-10-2009, 12:45 AM
5) Using Flash as the main lighting in twilight; This seems to be an ethical issue to me.
Is it worth getting a good photo at the cost of an owl losing it's dark adaption, and therefore, potentially, harming it's ability to hunt for the next 30-40 minutes? (the amount of time said for it to recover it's dark adaption).

Cheers,

Julian.



Do you have any further info about it? Or any links to read more about the impact of flash on owls?

Doug: Lovely shot, as always.

Jim: your info seems interesting.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

Jim Neiger
07-10-2009, 05:19 AM
Do you have any further info about it? Or any links to read more about the impact of flash on owls?

Doug: Lovely shot, as always.

Jim: your info seems interesting.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

30-40 minutes seems to be much longer than what I have witnessed. I have seen Owls recover from a spotlight and fly thru thick forrest without a problem within a few seconds. I have seen this with at least 4 different species of Owl.

Roger Clark
07-10-2009, 07:36 AM
30-40 minutes seems to be much longer than what I have witnessed. I have seen Owls recover from a spotlight and fly thru thick forrest without a problem within a few seconds. I have seen this with at least 4 different species of Owl.

About 30 minutes is how long it takes humans to regain maximum night sensitivity when you've been outside on a moonless night away from all lights and then you expose yourself to lights, like open the car door the light comes on and you try and find something in your car. If in twilight when you can still photograph moving subjects it is not that dark so you are not fully dark adapted and recovery to brighter light would be much faster. Translating the human data to owls has some error, but the chemistry in the eye is the same, so recovery time is probably close to that of humans. So try flashing yourself ans see how long it takes to recover.:D

On flying birds,I would be concerned that even a few second recovery could pose a danger of them hitting something if they couldn't see. So if after flashing yourself and seeing how long it takes to recover (think about if you are running), then only photograph a BIF if the bird would have enough flight time in the clear that it can't possibly hit anything during the recovery period. As it gets darker, the flash becomes a greater danger for a bird in flight.

Roger

Daniel Cadieux
07-10-2009, 08:45 AM
On flying birds,I would be concerned that even a few second recovery could pose a danger of them hitting something if they couldn't see. So if after flashing yourself and seeing how long it takes to recover (think about if you are running), then only photograph a BIF if the bird would have enough flight time in the clear that it can't possibly hit anything during the recovery period. As it gets darker, the flash becomes a greater danger for a bird in flight.

Roger

But that would be only if you photograph owls flying directly straight-on - that I would for sure avoid using flash. Owls' peripheral vision is very small and directly in front of them. In the two photos above, if flash were used, there would be no effect on the owl's vision. Not trying to start anything, just saying that an owl flying at any other angle than straight-on would not likely suffer from any loss of vision from flash. I would think no worse than lightening, a natural occurence.

John Swift
07-10-2009, 01:29 PM
Also realise that individual owls may have different tolerance levels to your presence. I've been fortunate to have an owl hunt so close it was inside my minimum focus range and at those times you just sit back and enjoy the beauty of the animal, at other times they will disappear before you've even pulled the car to a halt.

Many Regards

JohnS

Julian Mole
07-10-2009, 02:05 PM
Hi Jim,

Thanks for that tip. I have also read that sometimes following a few days and nights of prolonged rain that they can be seen out hunting in full daylight as they attempt to make up for lost time.
This is because their feathers aren't waterproof, so they mostly avoid hunting in the rain.

Julian Mole
07-10-2009, 04:12 PM
Hello Sabyasachi,

I was interested to read how flash photography affects owls, and the link below has some interesting information (especially the biological information, which states that an owl's eye is very similar to ours in the way it works)

http://photo.net/learn/nature/owlflash (http://photo.net/learn/nature/owlflash)

It includes this passage which, it claims, is written by a leading expert on Nocturnal Birds and Avian Sensory Science.

"In view of all this, it seems reasonable always to err on the side of caution
in these matters. The scotopic spectral sensitivity and rate of dark adaptation
of avian retinas are very similar to those of mammals, including ourselves. Thus
if our own dark adapted vision is disrupted by the flash used then it is wise to
presume that the bird's dark adaptation will be equally affected. If we are
temporally "blinded" by the flash then so also will be the bird for a similar
length of time. For example, if you knock out a fully dark adapted retina assume
it will take up to 30min for full sensitivity to be recovered."


This and a similar piece on the same webpage is where I got the 30-40 minute figure from, although, as Roger pointed out this really is the time required for full dark adaption in the human eye.

But the point I was trying to make is it seems to be an ethical decision; is it worth 'potentially' harming the owls' ability to hunt in the gloom, and at this time of year affect it's ability to provide food for it's young, just for the sake of a trophy photograph?

I suppose that's something each person has to decide for themselves.

Sabyasachi Patra
07-12-2009, 01:40 AM
Hi Julian,
I agree with you. I am not a fan of photographing in the night with flash. However, I wanted to know the impact of flash. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers,
Sabyasachi

Ed Erkes
07-13-2009, 03:02 PM
I'd previously read the linked threads on the potential harm of photographing owls with flash at night. However, this is one situation where direct experience seems to contradict scientific theory and conjecture. Unlike other somewhat controversial issues such as using calls to attract birds or live bait to attract owls-where it is difficult to determine the true effects of the practice on the birds-- the use of flash has an immediate and more easily determined effect. In addition flash photography has been used extensively on owls since the first flash bulbs were available. I collect old books on wildlife photography and have books dating back to the 1890's. Many photographers have used flash on owls at night and all that discuss the practice state that the owl quickly adapts to the flash and continue to perform nightly feedings to the young without apparent disruption of routine. I recently came across my first documented case where flash disturbed an owl. Eric Hosking, in 1938, photographed a tawny owl with flash bulbs of about 1/30 sec duration and describes the owl as being "temporarily blinded" and crashing into his blind (which was on scaffolding just a few feet from the nest). In later books using electronic flash of brief duration, he notes that owls were not disrupted and appeared to accept the flashes of light as a natural occurence such as lightning.

Julian Mole
07-13-2009, 06:32 PM
Hi Ed,

I understand that we can not know the effects for sure, and acknowledge your point about direct experience of flash on Owls in the field. (And there is always the point about lightening being a natural event which they should have come across before)

However given the status of the Barn Owl here in the UK, with numbers only just stabilising after decades of decline, I personally am not willing to risk 'potentially' affecting an individual bird's ability to hunt by using a flash on it.
( Especially the family of Barn Owls closest to my home, because the farmer already seems to make hunting hard enough for them with his use of intensive farming methods! )

That's just the choice I've decided to make. Each individual can consider the information/ arguments for themselves and come to their own conclusion.

PS. A distinction should also, probably, be made between using a flash on an Owl as the light starts to fade and using it when it's almost dark/ is dark. (Also Roger raised a sensible point about using flash on birds in flight, earlier in the thread)

Ákos Lumnitzer
07-22-2009, 01:05 AM
Regarding the use of flash on nocturnal birds. I had two scientists give me two totally different versions. One chastized me in a friendly manner and said it will not just impair, but help destroy the nocturnal vision of the owl or whatever the species, and the other, that used with diligence and caution it is not a major issue. So me not being a scientist, I still err on the side of caution and prefer where possible not to use flash. In the daytime, while they roost I cannot see it being a huge problem. At night, again, it is a different thing. I'll try and dig out the comments verbatim and post back here to share.

OK, here is one feedback I got from a Professor of Neurological Science and Behavior. A very respected scientist. Verbatim:

Just one word of warning (if indeed this is even justified and my apologies for even raising this), please do not use flash for nocturnal species in case you did so in innocence - their eyes are so sensitive to light that a single flash can (permanently) destroy some layers of the retina (especially the rods responsible for low light vision) and render the bird incapable of hunting during the night in future. All my photos of tawny frogmouths are taken without flash (also of this barn owl) for this reason. This is usually not well known. I almost had a physical fight with a professional photographer in Borneo once because he turned up from <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comhttp://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/ /><st1:State w:st=New York</ST1:p</st1:State>, brought a suitcase size of a flashlight and happily wanted to 'shoot' wild orang-utan babies. I told him that a single exposure could blind the (very cute) youngster he wanted to capture and condemn it to death. He didn't believe me at all and became very angry. Thankfully, I had a colleague with me, a specialist in vision, who hastened to confirm my fears. And it occurred to me then that there are no ethical standards set in professional photography by wildlife magazines. Indeed, they tacitly support such behaviour by looking only at technical issues and praising a photo that is well exposed etc. without regard for the animal. This is not an implied criticism -just something that may become relevant in your own practice.

Roger Clark
07-22-2009, 11:11 PM
Akos,
What strikes me as strange science is the idea that a flash would permanently blind or destroy night vision of any animal that hunts outside at night. The simple reason: lightning. If a photographic flash destroyed such vision so would lighting and all such animals would pretty much be blind. Since that is clearly not the case, I think your professor is likely wrong. Does he have actual scientific papers to prove photographic flashes do harm and yet lightning does not? I have seen scientific papers published with wrong conclusions and have even written papers to correct some. So, I would like to see these papers.

Roger

Ákos Lumnitzer
07-22-2009, 11:16 PM
Akos,
What strikes me as strange science is the idea that a flash would permanently blind or destroy night vision of any animal that hunts outside at night. The simple reason: lightning. If a photographic flash destroyed such vision so would lighting and all such animals would pretty much be blind. Since that is clearly not the case, I think your professor is likely wrong. Does he have actual scientific papers to prove photographic flashes do harm and yet lightning does not? I have seen scientific papers published with wrong conclusions and have even written papers to correct some. So, I would like to see these papers.

Roger

Exactly what I am thinking Roger. She has not provided any evidence, though is passionately against it and I have kindly asked if she could, as I love reading this sort of reference material. My friend - the zoologist - who gave me the opposite answer to this professor mentioned the lightning the same way as you did. So I am more inclined to believe him, though greatly respect the opinion and input of the former. What my friend also said about the lightning is that the intensity and duration is far longer than the camera flash, or at least duration (from memory). I will try and dig out his e-mail and quote his words in response. :)

Brent Stephenson
08-03-2009, 10:49 PM
An interesting debate on the use of flash photography on nocturnal animals. We have had similar debates on the BIRDING-NZ newsgroup here in New Zealand, as amongst other nocturnal 'highlights' we have kiwi - nocturnal and flightless and of course our countries national bird. Much of the debate centred around use of spotlights on these animals rather than flash, but I think the thoughts are the same.

There were a couple of posts in particular that provided a lot of good information on this subject, but unfortunately there does seem to be a gap in our scientific knowledge of this area - take a look at these posts -

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BIRDING-NZ/message/7643
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BIRDING-NZ/message/7641

It would appear that there are significant differences between avian eyes and human eyes at least, and that this would probably translate to differences in response levels. I really don't think flashing yourself in the eyes is going to replicate the affect on a nocturnal bird, and is probably just a waste of a good hour :(

I agree that using flash conservatively is probably wise especially with endangered or vulnerable species/individuals.

Cheers,
Brent

Julian Mole
08-10-2009, 04:08 PM
Hi Akos, Roger and Brent,

Thank you for furthering the discussion. It is an interesting subject, almost (but not quite) akin to the "do fish feel pain" arguments that fishermen and non-fishing individuals become embroiled in.

Anyway, I finally managed to capture a half way decent image of a Barn Owl yesterday - the owl appeared carrying a snack, roughly 45 minutes before sunset.

20D, 400mm 5.6 @ 5.6, 1/500, ISO 1600 (crop represents about a quarter of the whole frame)


http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm300/Julian_Mole/IMG_9275cropresizesusm30ss100nrgb1c.jpg

Jim Neiger
08-10-2009, 04:32 PM
Hi Akos, Roger and Brent,

Thank you for furthering the discussion. It is an interesting subject, almost (but not quite) akin to the "do fish feel pain" arguments that fishermen and non-fishing individuals become embroiled in.

Anyway, I finally managed to capture a half way decent image of a Barn Owl yesterday - the owl appeared carrying a snack, roughly 45 minutes before sunset.

20D, 400mm 5.6 @ 5.6, 1/500, ISO 1600 (crop represents about a quarter of the whole frame)



Did this occur shortly after a heavy rain? Just curious if that may be a usable pattern for predicting daytime activity.

Julian Mole
08-10-2009, 06:14 PM
Hi Jim,

Not in this case, it was sunny/ partially sunny all weekend.

However, at the venue in question this Owl (and it's mate) can often be seen hunting a half hour before sunset, whereas the pair of Owls close to my home seem to generally come out slightly later.

From what I have read this is not uncommon, individual Barn Owls seem to have their own preferred routines, although things such as recent bad weather, chicks to feed, shortage of prey, etc. can cause them to change it.