AV or TV Mode for BIF [Archive] - BirdPhotographers.net

Jay Gould

06-19-2009, 06:10 AM

I am slowly working through BAA II; I thoroughly enjoyed this issue of eZine - wonderful interview with Chris.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJay%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJay%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJay%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><style>  </style>eZine June 2009 Interview with Chris Van Rooyen: These days I use shutter priority on my Canon 1D Mark III as my preferred mode (with Cfn 2 - 8 ISO safety shift activated), and my rule is 1/2500 for large birds and 1/3200 or higher for ultra fast subjects such as bee-eaters or kingfishers.

I prefer to get a sharp image, even at a high ISO, and deal with the noise afterward. I use the center focus point (with expanded surrounding points) for almost all situations.<o></o>
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJay%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><link rel="themeData" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJay%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_themedata.thmx"><link rel="colorSchemeMapping" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CJay%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtm lclip1%5C01%5Cclip_colorschememapping.xml"><style>  </style> Artie Morris - BAA II, p. 461:<o></o>
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3. Work in Av mode and use the wide-open aperture unless you can verbalize a reason for stopping down. This will ensure that you are using the fastest possible shutter speed for a given ISO.
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4. If you are using digital capture, do not neglect the higher ISOs as they will provide additional shutter speed (and thus yield sharper images). I would venture that the most common ISO used to create the images in this book would be ISO 400. If in doubt about your shutter speed, it is almost always best to raise your ISO setting a few notches.<o></o>

The student inquires: Are these two Masters saying the same thing differently?

If they are saying the same thing: Is Chris' approach simpler? Simply set TV Mode, choose the shutter speed, and let the camera choose the aperture and ISO.

If they are not saying the same thing: While the quick off-hand answer is different strokes for different folks, are the differences reconcilable?

AND

Recommendations for us students (I am not alone; I am simply the one who asks lots and lots of questions!

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Desmond Chan

06-19-2009, 06:16 AM

No master here, but just to let you know there is a third mode - the mother of all exposure modes: the manual mode, which I use primarily :D

Now back to the masters :)

Tony Whitehead

06-19-2009, 06:34 AM

I did a workshop with Chris last September and at that stage he was using the same method as Artie. The improved high ISO performance and auto ISO options on the newer cameras made his new method an option. He is also generally working with plenty of light in Africa. I don't think either is right or wrong just possibly better in different situations. I still use Artie's approach apart from times when manual is definitely the better way to go.
Would be nice to hear straight from the horse's mouths on this topic.

Doug Brown

06-19-2009, 06:49 AM

Hi Jay. When I do BIF, it's either aperture priority or manual exposure. But remember that there is nothing magical about any of these shooting modes. For BIF you always need to be aware of your shutter speed and make aperture and ISO adjustments as needed to maintain a shutter speed of 1/800 (for large slow birds) to much faster shutter speeds for the small and agile flyers.

There is nothing particularly easier about Chris's technique. In aperture priority, if you shoot wide open you'll get the fastest shutter speed that your ISO and available light will allow.

I do believe that all good flight photographers agree on one thing and that's shutter speed. How you get there is a matter of personal preference. Good question!

Roger Clark

06-19-2009, 07:32 AM

Jay,
I consider shutter priority with ISO shift as an auto mode--the camera chooses depth of field and noise, while you choose only one: shutter speed. I prefer more control, so I generally use aperture priority or manual because I want control over depth of field as well as noise and shutter speed. Aperture priority works well when the light is changing fast or the subject is moving in and out of shadows. If the subject is moving against a complex background some metering modes might change exposure so I feel manual is a better way to go. This works for all moving subjects, not just birds in flight.

Roger

Charles Glatzer

06-19-2009, 08:52 AM

Jay,

In Manual Mode you choose the Highest Priority, setting first the aperture or shutter speed in-camera by conscience decision just as you would in Av or TV modes. Work with Manual, once learned you will better understand how and when to effectively use the Av/Tv modes. Your Metering Mode selection will often vary depending on the Meter Pattern in use, lighting conditions and subject size relative to the background.

Chas

Fabs Forns

06-19-2009, 10:47 AM

I will add that working in Aperture, you need to be more aware of background changes, for instance, bird on the sky that drops under the tree line. Different compensations in Aperture value.
In Manual, provided the bird is under same light, continue photographing and don't worry about BG.

Alfred Forns

06-19-2009, 10:52 AM

Jay one thing to consider that hasn't been mentioned Tv is a valuable tool for bif is the shutter speed is important !!

When using fill flash the shutter speeds becomes important ... too high and light won't reach.

Basically there is no best mode just the one most suited to the occasion !!!

Robert Amoruso

06-19-2009, 01:46 PM

Basically there is no best mode just the one most suited to the occasion !!!

That statement is the key answer to this question IMO.

Jay Gould

06-20-2009, 02:27 PM

Hi,

Very educational and diplomatic responses ;)

I do understand everything/all of the suggestions offered.

I agree with Chas' bottom line: "Work with Manual, once learned you will better understand how and when to effectively use the Av/Tv modes."

Having said that these questions remain pertaining to BIF:

1. Proper Tv: Chris suggested 1/2500 - 1/3500; Doug slows down to 1/800 ++. Quite a difference both in speed and the resulting Av/ISO settings.

2. Roger: "Aperture priority works well when the light is changing fast or the subject is moving in and out of shadows." Agreed, and here you would choose Av so that the camera can compensate for the changing light conditions. However, when Fabs states: "I will add that working in Aperture, you need to be more aware of background changes, for instance, bird on the sky that drops under the tree line. Different compensations in Aperture value," that becomes a bit confusing.

If you are in Av I would think that while you always should be aware of BG changes, you need to be less aware of the changes because Av is taking care of those changes. The concern would be that you have not set the ISO high enough and Tv drops below acceptable levels.

3. Total Manual as suggested by Des, Roger, and Chas: With a static subject, if you set Av, Tv, and ISO and you do not like the image, reset and shoot another. However, with a dynamic moving image, if you are in total manual and lighting conditions change, by the time you have reset one of the variables to compensate for the change your subject as flown the coop!

It seems to me that with dynamic images you have to make a choice in advance what you are going to allow the camera to control for that particular shot and then live with your choice during that particular sequence. If you choose wrong, you can only adjust for the next image.

Having said all of this, I look forward to hearing from my future professors - James and Jim - and as Tony said:

Would be nice to hear straight from the horse's mouths on this topic. As a newbie, my gut says that for BIF to start with Tv and learn from the results rather than starting with Av and half-way through a sequence finding that the settings are not resulting in a sufficiently fast shutter speed. If I start with Av and choose an ISO that results in a sufficiently high SS, I have basically done the same thing in two steps that I could have accomplished in one step, haven't I?

PS: It is 5:30am Down Under and I am off to a sunrise workshop. The hours we keep to obtain an image :-)

Fabs Forns

06-20-2009, 02:46 PM

Jay, I use manual 98% of the time. Since I choose the aperture, ISO and shutter speed, I am in fact, using all three modes at the same time :) and don't have to worry about compensation.

Charles Glatzer

06-20-2009, 03:34 PM

Jay,

With a static subject, if you set Av, Tv, and ISO and you do not like the image, reset and shoot another.

If nothing changes you are correct. However, if you zoom in/out or orient the camera differently horz/vert, the subject size and/or background will change requiring you to alter the amount of compensation simply to get back to the same exposure you had before you altered the camera view. If the exposure is set manually you can alter the focal length and camera orientation so long as wthe light is consistent without worry.

However, with a dynamic moving image, if you are in total manual and lighting conditions change, by the time you have reset one of the variables to compensate for the change your subject as flown the coop!

Not if you are Proactive, and think the scenario through. Do you want to shoot the bird stationary or in flight? And, in what light does it look best. If it looks best under cloud cover, wait for the cloud...why shoot it in sunlight if you know it will not be as desired? If the bird is in shade that is one exposure. If the bird is going to take flight into sunlight that is another, and I will all ready have the sunlight exposure in camera when it does. ;) Being a step ahead and goal oriented will increase your keeper ratio dramatically.

Btw- it requires the same amount of adjustments (one) to change Av compensation as it does either f/ stop or shutter speed in manual mode.

Chas

Tony Whitehead

06-20-2009, 03:36 PM

[QUOTE=Jay Gould;280819]Hi,

2. Roger: "Aperture priority works well when the light is changing fast or the subject is moving in and out of shadows." Agreed, and here you would choose Av so that the camera can compensate for the changing light conditions. However, when Fabs states: "I will add that working in Aperture, you need to be more aware of background changes, for instance, bird on the sky that drops under the tree line. Different compensations in Aperture value," that becomes a bit confusing.

If you are in Av I would think that while you always should be aware of BG changes, you need to be less aware of the changes because Av is taking care of those changes. The concern would be that you have not set the ISO high enough and Tv drops below acceptable levels.

Jay, There are 2 scenarios here which, I think is causing your confusion. A subject in changing light (e.g moving in and out of shadows) needs rapid adjustment of exposure so an automated mode (Av or Tv) can be useful. A subject in constant light but with a changing BG (e.g going from a sky BG needing +EC to a dark tree line maybe needing -EC) where the automated modes can get it very wrong and manual is the only way to go.
The best option is to go and play with some seagulls or pelicans in flight and get a feel for what works best for you.

Doug Brown

06-20-2009, 04:09 PM

As a newbie, my gut says that for BIF to start with Tv and learn from the results rather than starting with Av and half-way through a sequence finding that the settings are not resulting in a sufficiently fast shutter speed. If I start with Av and choose an ISO that results in a sufficiently high SS, I have basically done the same thing in two steps that I could have accomplished in one step, haven't I?

You have to remember Jay that all of these camera modes are limited by available light. Setting a fast shutter speed in Tv mode insures a fast shutter speed, but if available light drops significantly and you don't compensate, you may get an underexposed image. Tv mode can't give you shutter speeds that available light won't allow. BIF boils down to collecting enough light to properly expose your subject and having a fast enough shutter speed to stop the action. Av mode and Tv mode require the same number of steps to accomplish this objective; select your ISO and either your shutter speed or your aperture. Compensation is accomplished with the camera's EC control. If your only concern initially is a fast shutter speed you could for the sake of discussion use Av mode and set your lens for maximum aperture. As I stated in my first post that will guarantee you the fastest shutter speed that available light will allow. If the shutter speed that you're getting is too slow then bump your ISO.

You're looking for an answer from Jim Neiger, but he's currently on vacation and may not be able to respond. Having co-led a number of workshops with him, I can tell you that he is a firm believer in manual exposure for BIF photography. In a nutshell he believes that manual exposure allows you to properly expose for the bird, thus insuring that the bird will look good against whatever BG you put it up against.

Roman Kurywczak

06-20-2009, 07:05 PM

Hey Jay,
Another manual exposure shooter 100% of the time, especially for landscapes. I feel the same way Jim Neiger, Chas, and Fabs do and agree with the reasons mentioned. Understanding and conrtolling all aspects is the key for me, but this approach may not work for you. You have to develope a system that works for you. If you become comfortable and familiar with any of the modes (TV, AV, or M)...and are getting consistently good results......mode really doesn't matter.......final product does.

Fabs Forns

06-20-2009, 08:07 PM

It you are using Av or Tv and the bird flies in front of a cloud and next into blue sky, you run into the same problem: different compensation.
Anyway, the right exposure is only good for a small quadrant let's say eleven to one o'clock, outside of that, the light is going to vary a bit.

Alfred Forns

06-20-2009, 09:42 PM

Hi Chas

I probably shoot more Av/Tv than most but for flight with any clouds (normally the case) automatic modes give erratic readings .... much rather go to manual !!! When you pick up clouds or clear sky the reading will be different but the bird in same light ... again it goes back to what I said before ... no best mode !!!

Jay Gould

06-21-2009, 03:48 AM

Hi and thank you to everyone! There isn't another forum with the class and quality of professionals willing to take the time as teachers.

For me this thread is not about exposure; it is about various techniques in the limited field of BIF.

Up until reading Chris' comments about the speed he sets I was in my limited and awkward way following Artie's recommendation of using Av, setting the aperture wide open, allowing the camera to set the SS, and if the SS was too low, increasing the ISO until the SS was "fast enough" whatever that means.

Chris' technique of Tv priority at significant SS, of course there has to be sufficient light, and allowing the camera to choose the aperture, and effectively the ISO when you choose the ISO safety shift seemed to me to be the best of all worlds when you are not shooting in manual.

That is why I have started this thread.

All of the answers make a lot of sense and represent a variety of techniques for BIF - which is all this thread is about. It is not about techniques applied to static subjects, e.g., landscape, portrait, or macro.

I have no doubt that my learning curve will drastically/hopefully significantly rise after spending six days with James and Jim.

Jay, There are 2 scenarios here which, I think is causing your confusion. A subject in changing light (e.g moving in and out of shadows) needs rapid adjustment of exposure so an automated mode (Av or Tv) can be useful. A subject in constant light but with a changing BG (e.g going from a sky BG needing +EC to a dark tree line maybe needing -EC) where the automated modes can get it very wrong and manual is the only way to go. The best option is to go and play with some seagulls or pelicans in flight and get a feel for what works best for you.

Tony, in a sense has summed up where I am at. With a subject in changing light, my thought was that Chris's approach made sense. Interestingly, Tony you have indicated that Chris has lots of light in Africa and yet changed his approach with the newer sensors.

Regarding the changing BG, where you at one moment need +EC and another moment -EC, and the comment that manual is the only way to go:

1) Are the manual shooters with bodies that have ISO safety shift so that effectively the ISO jumps when necessary using that option? The 5D2 does not have that option. If you opt to have ISO set automatically in the situation where you are using Tv priority, and you opt to choose ISO expansion, will the camera when necessary to maintain the chosen SS raise the ISO theoretically to 25,600?

2) When in complete manual mode where all three exposure ingredients (Av, Tv, and ISO) are being set manually, obviously as carefully described by Chas, you are/have to be proactive and make decisions regarding what you believe the lighting/exposure will be at the moment/location you have you have decided to create the image.

Fabs said

the right exposure is only good for a small quadrant let's say eleven to one o'clock, outside of that, the light is going to vary a bit.

Exactly, and when all three elements of the correct exposure triangle are manual, are the manual shooters making changes during that shooting sequence, or only making changes between shooting sequences? And, if during the sequence, which element is being changed to address the changing condition? Av, Tv, or EC?

Thanks,

Roman Kurywczak

06-21-2009, 08:06 AM

Hi Jay,
When I am in manual mode, especially for BIF, I choose the highest ISO I feel is necessary for the situation....typically starting at ISO 800 in the early/late parts of the day and sometimes as high as ISO 1600 if necessary. Heck, I've even been at ISO 3200 when some owl came out after sunset in the Everglades. I choose the ISO that is going to give me the highest SS that I can crank out for the given situation. If I can go lower, I will. As far as changing settings.......I am contantly aware of the light conditions and how they change. I have my setting set B4 I take my first BIF image as I test shoot something white and something black/dark in the light I will be photographing in. I know the difference between the 2 and how many clicks of my dials it will take to achieve that. I know where all the dials and setting are and can change them almost instantly and at least 1 stop in a split second by turning my speed dial on the Mark 3. 1 full finger push to the left and I slow the SS by 1 stop(3 clicks).....reverse the other way. I usually set my f-stop to the area I feel my lens is shrpest at (6.3 or 7.1 on the Sigmonster).......so I have 1/3 or 2/3.....of stop that I can trade off there if necessary and again......I can change my command dial rather quickly. I guess my point is that knowing your camera and it's controls......like the back of your hand.......make working in manual rather easy for me. I am very aware when the light changes 1/3 to 2/3rd of a stop......at sunrise/sunset......it is about every 5/10 minutes......then about 1/2 hour....until it stays constant. With clouds......I know the difference when the sun goes behind a cloud and when it is diffused and when it is sunny......and change the dials as necessary. A bit more work but again, as I am very comfortable with it not an issue as it is only usually 3 clicks max.
One thing I never worry about in manual mode, is if the bird flies into a blue/light sky BG or goes against dark trees or dark water BG......my exposure is correct on the main subject......what I am trying to capture. In the other modes i would be worried about what my camera is metering.

Jay Gould

06-21-2009, 03:08 PM

Roman, that is a wonderful explanation of what you do. Thank you for taking the time to share your technique. That certainly points out the BPN adage: practice, practice, practice! :D

Fabs Forns

06-21-2009, 05:14 PM

Jay, to answer your questions, I change settings between and not during burst and will use the click method that Roman uses.
Unless I'm absolutely happy with my f stop and speed, in which case I will alter the ISO, in cameras as good as the D3.
I do not like auto ISO, I do not like to give that power to my camera :p:)

Fabs Forns

06-21-2009, 10:52 PM

Jay, I just realized you mentioned that the 5d2 is your camera. The focusing speed may not be the best suited for BIF, not as fast in acquisition as the 50D or the 1D series.

Jay Gould

06-22-2009, 01:25 AM

Jay, I just realized you mentioned that the 5d2 is your camera. The focusing speed may not be the best suited for BIF, not as fast in acquisition as the 50D or the 1D series.

Totally agree! I sold my 40D in Australia while I still could recover the entire price I paid in the USA.

I am hoping the Canon Gods will shine on me and I will have the 1D4 or the 60D by the end of September.
in time for my workshops with James and Jim.

If I do not have the bodies by the time I depart, I will borrow my brother's 50D for the workshops; then I have until December for the 1D4 or the 60D.

Love the Canon rumors - supposedly the 1D4 will be announced August 25 - Ha! We all know how unreliable rumors are :D.

On the other hand, the latest CR stats look good.

From NL (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_1D_MkIV.html)
This spec list comes from a Canon Camera tester.
* 1.3 crop
* Images ~16MP
* ISO 50-26500
* 8MP sRAW1 format providing images that seem to best 1D3 files in detail [typo corrected]
* Very clean images at ISO 3200. 6400/12800 take further processing very well
* Slightly faster FPS than 1D3 in real life shooting
* AF greatly improved and very good in low light (actual comment was ‘Nikon fast’ ;-)
* Liveview AF – not up to fast sports use, but very usable otherwise
* Video as with 5D2
* Screen as per 5D2
* Ergonomic improvements with grips – some buttons moved
* Feels faster and more responsive in nearly all aspects of real use.

Thanks for thinking about that issue.

Arthur Morris

06-23-2009, 04:24 PM

Well, I started to read all of this and got a headache so I am going back to doing back to doing my 2008 income taxes....

Bottom line is that CVR likes to use very fast shutter speeds for flight as does my friend Ned Harris. Both of us use the mode that gets us where we want to be when we need to be there. Interesting to see if CVR stays with TV when the bird might be against the sky one moment and against the mountain the next....

Chris van Rooyen

06-26-2009, 03:30 AM

Hi guys

Apologies for my belated response, I've been away for a week in the Kgalagadi. I will try and explain my approach to BIF.

My overall approach is to use the technology at my disposal in the best possible way, in order for me make the job as simple as possible, so that I can concentrate on getting the image. In other words, the more things the camera can take care of, the better. I used to work in Av all the time, in other words I would set the ISO and the Aperture in a combination that would give me best possible shutter speed for the situation. My benchmark is 1/2500 for BIF, in that way I am assured of a sharp image. The problem with Av was that it resulted in variable shutter speeds when the bird moved against a dappled background. Often that would then result in shutter speeds dropping too low when compensating for a dark background, resulting in a blurred image. To prevent this from happening, I switched to Tv mode with Auto ISO, where I set the shutter speed to 1/2500 (or more) thus making sure that irrespective of the background, the subject will be sharp. The excellent high ISO capabilities of the MK III made this (to me) a practical option, in other words, sometimes the camera would push the ISO to 2000 or higher to compensate for a dark background, but it still resulted in a usable image. And with appropriate blurring in the background, the noise can be elimnated while the noise in the subject is usually masked to a large extent by the feather detail. Now that I'm using the D3, I have taken this a step further by working in Manual mode, with automatic ISO expansion. I set the shutterspeed at 1/2500 (or more) to ensure sharp images, and I set the aperture usually at about f/5.6 as I want to avoid working at maximum aperture to ensure more DOF on the subject. I limit my ISO expansion to ISO 3200. The class leading high ISO ability of the D3 ensures that I can get workable results even at ISO 3200. I also have to add that working in Africa usually means good light, therfeore it is seldom that I have to use ISO 3200. For me this is the ideal combimation for BIF.

Hope this makes some sense:-)

Jay Gould

06-26-2009, 03:59 AM

Chris, certainly for the conditions in which you are operating your procedure/technique makes perfect sense.

For someone working most of the time in less than "good light" a different approach may have to be adopted.

Thank you and everyone for taking the time to discuss this issue.

The discussion has given me a lot of food for thought. As a newbie learning to set and use the various capabilities of a new camera, and at the same time learning how to HH a 300 f/2.8 lens while trying to track a tiny moving target, at least when there is "good light" it seems there will be a greater chance for keepers with Chris' approach.

I do understand that right now using the 5D2 is not the best BIF camera available. Hopefully the 1D4 is just around the corner ;) :D

Thanks Chris for another approach.

Cheers, Jay

PS:
Apologies for my belated response

Mate, you have nothing to apologize for; those of us learning from you and the other Professionals here on BPN say Thank You for the time you take from your busy schedules to further our learning. JG

Chris van Rooyen

06-26-2009, 05:25 AM

Only a pleasure Jayhttp://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/images/icons/icon7.gif

Arthur Morris

06-26-2009, 05:44 AM

Thanks Chris. My only question (as I think that I hinted at somewhere above) is: whether using Canon or Nikon and working in Tv mode, you need quite different exposure compensations for birds flying against the sky and birds flying against the distant mountains. With birds with light highlights like an adult Bearded Vulture (on a sunny day) I would assume that with the MIII you had to add from 2/3 to a stop of light against the sky and used close to the metered exposure with the bird against the mountains. And with Nikon the bird against the sky would be best right around zero but against the mountain it would seem that you would need some significant underexposure. (Of course if the meter reading of the bird against the sky and the bird against the mountain are the same then all would be good with the world, but that is a rare occurence.)

Do you dial in the EC as needed based on experience?

Jim Neiger

06-26-2009, 09:09 PM

Jay,

I think that manual is the best way to go in almost all situations. I will explain in detail and show you how to do it when you come for your workshop.

Dan Brown

06-26-2009, 09:34 PM

Jay,

I think that manual is the best way to go in almost all situations. I will explain in detail and show you how to do it when you come for your workshop.

Jay, Jim will teach you well! Have fun, I did!:)