Stolen image

[Michael Lloyd]

Well.. as far as I know this is a first for me. I received a call today congratulating me on being published in Texas Parks and Wildlife Magazine. :confused: Since I have never submitted anything to them I was a little confused.

Here's the ad. I'll follow with the image. I tried calling but the voice on the other end suggested that I send an email. I've emailed TP&W magazine as well as PortAransas.org. Monday I will contact PPA and see if membership has any real value.

[Michael Lloyd]

My image... can you spot the one that is EXACTLY like it?

[Fabs Forns]

Did you give a copy to any of the persons there?

[Michael Lloyd]

Did you give a copy to any of the persons there?

Define give. Did they have access to view and download them from my website. Yes. For sale? No.

[Fabs Forns]

Well, someone misunderstood your generosity.

[Michael Lloyd]

Or stole them from a post on a web forum. Sigh... I've heard too many horror stories about this to think it wouldn't eventually happen. About 6 months ago I went on a tear trying to figure out how to preserve image quality but post / upload sub 100k images. I was actually shooting for 60k or less but I didn't like the artifacts that occasionally showed up. I may go back to 60k now...

Genuine Fractals can make a decent image out of almost nothing... certainly something that would print in TP&W magazine...

[Michael Lloyd]

PPA touts their copyright infringement protection.. we'll see...

What really bites is that I've shot a lot better stuff than that :D

[Alfred Forns]

Hi Mike its a shame how the steel images and are used without question by magazine !!!

.... btw thats some heavy duty Fin Nor for the under thirty pound sailfish :)

[Michael Lloyd]

Hi Mike its a shame how the steel images and are used without question by magazine !!!

.... btw thats some heavy duty Fin Nor for the under thirty pound sailfish :)

:D Yeah... those boys were die hard fishermen. I went on 3 trips on the Nyati. 2 in '07 and 1 in '08. The first two were 2 day all nighters (great photo ops) and the last one was a 3 day 100 mile out and back (awesome photo ops). By day three we kind of smelled bad :D so we took a swim in 5,000' plus water. I don't care if I never do that again... I hate when I can't touch the bottom :D and I'm a very good swimmer. Stuff eats you in that kind of water

[Fabs Forns]

If you download Tineye, you can right click on your image and it will tell you where it is posted:

http://tineye.com/

[WIlliam Maroldo]

I think this could be a good thing. You own the copyright to the image, and they have infringed on the copyright. You have proof that you created the image, and they have acknowledged the fact.They have actually published it. You have every right for monetary compensation. I would send them a certified letter and suggest they fairly compensate you for your work, or legal proceedings will begin (nicely worded of course). Should be worth at least $100, I'd guess. regards~Bill

[joel quenneville]

Have you registered a copyright for this image? I've heard that it is a must if there are any legal proceedings. Also, the magazine may be more disposed to pay you if they know the image is registered.

[Michael Lloyd]

Have you registered a copyright for this image? I've heard that it is a must if there are any legal proceedings. Also, the magazine may be more disposed to pay you if they know the image is registered.

No and I've heard the same thing. I find it hard to believe that someone could take an image and use it as they want to, even get paid for it, and not suffer any consequences for it. It's stealing. Period.

[Michael Lloyd]

Hi Mike its a shame how the steel images and are used without question by magazine !!!

.... btw thats some heavy duty Fin Nor for the under thirty pound sailfish :)


BTW Alfred. Every... and I mean every Sailfish, Swordfish, or Marlin that the boat catches is released. At least on every trip I was on that's the rule. I know the Captain well and that's his rule so I suspect that is how it is all the time.

[Alfred Forns]

Glad to hear Mike Does make a difference !!!!

[Michael Lloyd]

My friend and Captain of the boat where I shot the image just emailed me. It's been a few years, so I had forgotten, but one of the guys in the image is an attorney and good friend of the Captain). None of them signed a model release because the photographer, that would be me, never intended for the image to be published. On top of that, PortAransas.org printed the image in a brochure (http://www.portaransas.org/download/Stay&Play09.pdf). Who knows how many copies of that went out...

[Jay Gould]

Mike, that two-bit magazine that has published your image will probably not even answer a letter from you; possibly from an attorney. They well know that no one is going to spend the money to sue them; unfortunately, simple as that.

Regarding Port Aransas, is that a government organization? If so, you knowledge has started a very short statute of limitations running against the clock. I do not know where Port Aransas is; perhaps the attorney on the boat might know. However, depending upon how they obtained the image might also have a bearing on the damages you would be able to claim against them.

At the end of the day you need to find the creep that stole the image; if you do, then what?

[Mike Tracy]

Good luck. I am in the same boat but don't feel up to fighting city hall. A few weeks ago the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service used one of my images and never requested permission although I did receive credit.

[Alfred Forns]

How did they get it Mike? ... don't think I would have fought either.

[Mark Fuge]

Talk to an attorney. I've heard in the past from a patent attorney, on one of the sites, that registration is NOT required. How could you register all your images? My sources have indicated that you need proof that you took it and you need a copyright on the image. Other than that, it is yours not theirs … You have the proof, via witnesses on the boat and possession of the image. In addition they contacted you to thank you for it.... I think you have a chance to make a profit for you and your lawyer.
<O:p
I would agree that most of us would not fight City Hall, but by doing so, more of us will face this fate. Having the government involved and not requesting permission, really gets my cork!! :confused: :(
<O:p<O:p
I hope you go for it. Keep us posted if you do. NANPA may be another source of help that you may want to approach. If your not a member yet, this may be a time to join. http://www.nanpa.org

[Mike Tracy]

How did they get it Mike? ... don't think I would have fought either.

Long story that actually goes back a couple years when I licensed it to a prominent conservation organization for one time useage. Since they (fish and wildlife ) are not using it for monetary gain I am not as mad as the OP as well he should be. Don't want to hijack his thread so maybe I will start anew ,explain and solicit opinions.

[Michael Lloyd]

How did they get it Mike? ... don't think I would have fought either.

The only thing we can come up with is via a fishing forum that one of the guys is one (might own it but I'm not sure). I really don't know. I hope to find out.

This might end up being a hard lesson. I've been on the PPA forum posing similar questions and arguments and it's not sounding good. They insist that the image must be registered if I wanted to sue. That's not a big deal because I don't really want to sue. I want resolution. I want them to understand that they are thieves. Unintentional or not they are thieves. One hope that I have is that the attorney in the image will back me up and lend some weight into the no model release part of the equation. They are unrelated issues but if we can tie them together something may come of it.

I've read a few "you've got them now" posts on another forum :) That's not how I roll. I want them to understand that what they did was wrong. I want them to stop stealing images and get them the right way. There is a prevailing mentality out there that if it's on the web then it's free. That's bs. My cameras and lenses weren't free. My time has value. My software wasn't free. My Mac's weren't free. The industry is hurting because of the "free" mentality and the prevalence of cheap cameras with high resolution sensors. Anyone with half a watt of neuron power can pick one up, put it on auto, and blast away until they accidentally get an image that looks decent in print. The market is flooded with wannabe's putting crap work out and ad agencies are using them because they are cheap and stealing images because they are free. Maybe I'm one of the wannabes? I don't know and I don't care about that. I'm comfortable with my skill sets and I'm eager to learn new ones. That's why I continue to pick a camera up and shoot what I like to shoot. It's a continual learning experience in a comfortable environment. What I care about is the integrity of the craft. What I care about is protecting the rights that we should have. What I care about is dispelling the myth that it's somehow my fault that someone stole from me.

[Michael Lloyd]

Long story that actually goes back a couple years when I licensed it to a prominent conservation organization for one time useage. Since they (fish and wildlife ) are not using it for monetary gain I am not as mad as the OP as well he should be. Don't want to hijack his thread so maybe I will start anew ,explain and solicit opinions.

Post it here if you want. No problems with that.

I'm not mad at TP&W. They probably got the ad from PortAransas.org. I'm not really mad at PA.org. I just want them to get an understanding of what the situation is...

[Alfred Forns]

Must be upsetting to have the image snatched and used for commercial purposes !!! ... and the worst part they don't even care !!!

[Michael Lloyd]

Must be upsetting to have the image snatched and used for commercial purposes !!! ... and the worst part they don't even care !!!

It is... About 10 years ago my boys and I came home from the movies. I couldn't get my key to go into the lock. Someone had tried to drive a screwdriver into it so they could break in. We probably just missed them. That's how this feels...

[Mark Fuge]

It doesn't have to be financial revenge. As you say, satisfaction is all that may be needed. However, I hope you succeed for all of us. Whether we be pros or just enjoy the hobby to whatever level. It is not right to have them take your image and then flaunt you with it by thanking you for nothing.

Good Luck!

[Roger Clark]

This is a good lesson that if you put something on the web, put your name on it as well as some way to contact you, e.g. a web site. If the orphaned works bill gets through then people can take any image with no way to find its owner and use it for whatever they want.

Roger

[Jay Gould]

Roger, can you post a reference to the orphaned works bill? Thanks and Cheers, Mate

[Roger Clark]

Jay,
Just do a google search for: orphaned works bill

and you will get many hits, e.g.:

http://photodoto.com/orphan-works-bill

[Jay Gould]

Roger, were you previously familar with Photodoto, or did you provide it as an example?

Interesting reading; in "another life" I knew Howard Berman, one of the bill sponsors - quite a liberal fellow.

From what I have briefly read this bill is just another "public screw" by substantial publishers.

I have no doubt that in the USA there are hundreds if not thousands of images that the publishers are salivating to publish as they push this through Congress.

No one is going to take them to court over a single image; everyone knows that if wouldn't be cost effective.

It certainly underscores that if you care about your works you will put signature and other information somewhere on the face of the web posted image.

I know that here the images have a signature, date, and copyright icon.

I guess I will use this for a bit of education:

1. What does it take to copyright your posted image; merely putting a copyright icon on the image or more?

2. How do you make that copyright icon?

3. Digging deeper as a result of this discussion I found this quote rather interesting - it pertains to this "stolen image" thread and also to the vibrant discussion of cloning and disclosure:


Mr. Danziger, the gallery organizer who exhibited the Fairey showing, says it was "inappropriate to not credit or reveal the source" and that "there's an implication that defining yourself as an 'artist' as opposed to a 'photographer' makes you more important and gives you special privilege." He's doing his part to correct the situation by selling prints of the photograph, signed by Mr. Garcia.The quote is from the article discussing the use of an AP's photographer's image by another artist to create the famous Obama HOPE poster art. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123716866712036921.html

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm; are we photographers or artists?

:D

[James Prudente]

http://www.photoattorney.com/ Great site lots of info on copyright use and infringement.

Jim

[Mark Fuge]

Roger, were you previously familar with Photodoto, or did you provide it as an example?
Interesting reading; in "another life" I knew Howard Berman, one of the bill sponsors - quite a liberal fellow.
From what I have briefly read this bill is just another "public screw" by substantial publishers.
I have no doubt that in the USA there are hundreds if not thousands of images that the publishers are salivating to publish as they push this through Congress.
No one is going to take them to court over a single image; everyone knows that if wouldn't be cost effective.
It certainly underscores that if you care about your works you will put signature and other information somewhere on the face of the web posted image.
I know that here the images have a signature, date, and copyright icon.

I guess I will use this for a bit of education:

1. What does it take to copyright your posted image; merely putting a copyright icon on the image or more?

I was told by a patent attorney and respected photog, on another photo board, that putting the copyright icon on the image and keeping a copy of it is all that is needed. Registration is not required, as noted in my prior post it would be prohibitive to register 200,000 images for fear of one being stolen.

Digital adds another plus. All images are dated and time stamped. Keep that info as well for future reference. Have them prove their image is dated and stamped prior to yours, if in doubt.

2. How do you make that copyright icon?

In PC format "Alt 0169" = © Not sure about Mac

3. Digging deeper as a result of this discussion I found this quote rather interesting - it pertains to this "stolen image" thread and also to the vibrant discussion of cloning and disclosure:

The quote is from the article discussing the use of an AP's photographer's image by another artist to create the famous Obama HOPE poster art. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123716866712036921.html

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm; are we photographers or artists? :D

Thanks Jay. I vote for practitioners of the art of photography! :D

[Jay Gould]

:confused:


2. How do you make that copyright icon?

In PC format "Alt 0169" = ©OK, ambidextrous ones: how do you type Alt 0169?

Better, how do you type U+00A9?!

Playing with this I was reminded of the fact that in the Start Menu under Accessories/System Tools is the Character Map that has the needed icon: © :D

Cheers, Jay

[Mark Fuge]

:confused:

OK, ambidextrous ones: how do you type Alt 0169?

Playing with this I was reminded of the fact that in the Start Menu under Accessories/System Tools is the Character Map that has the needed icon: © :D

Cheers, Jay


Since you found it, no problem. But for others you hold down the "ALT key" while typing the "0169". When you release the ALT key, it will appear. Whichever works best for you.

You can use two hands to do it! :D ;) :D

[Jay Gould]

Every time I hold down the Alt key and start to type 0169, when I get to the "6" the Page Setup window appears!

I am making a full disclosure :eek::D

[William Malacarne]

You have to use the numbers key pad on the right not the numbers on the keyboard.

Bill

[Bill Jobes]

On the Mac, the command is Option-G ©

[Roger Clark]

Roger, were you previously familar with Photodoto, or did you provide it as an example?

Interesting reading; in "another life" I knew Howard Berman, one of the bill sponsors - quite a liberal fellow.


Hi Jay,

I had not seen that page before, I found it with google. But I am familiar with photodo.

Small world, isn't it?

Roger

[Jay Gould]

You have to use the numbers key pad on the right not the numbers on the keyboard.

Bill

Bingo! :D

Would you believe I received an error message that my message "Bingo!" was too short!

It must be at least 10 Characters ;)

© ©

It works :)

[Mark Fuge]

Bingo!
Would you believe I received an error message that my message "Bingo!" was too short!
It must be at least 10 Characters
© ©
It works

Yup, I go the same one yesterday! :o

Sorry about the keypad, didn't think of that. Just do it automatically. In fact, when I was typing the reply yesterday I couldn't remember the numbers and kept getting error symbols!!!! :confused: :confused: :o

But glad we got you on track! :cool:

[Michael Lloyd]

°F <--- ALT 248. Note that this works in Canada too :) °C

I'm still dealing with my little problem but now I have PPA working with me. One note- If one had lawsuit in mind it would make sense to register your images. That isn't what this is about though. This thing is boiling down to an ad agency that doesn't seem to understand that you can't use an image without the owners permission. PortAransas.org isn't the villain. TP&W isn't the villain. The ad agency is probably not a villain... but they do need an education on copyright laws. That will soon be handled by people that know how to make things like that understood.

[Michael Lloyd]

I just figured out that I never gave you guys the chance to read the nice email that the ad agency rep sent me. It might make it more clear as to why I am going at this as hard as I am... I blanked out the names (except mine of course).

Someone's got some brass cajones IMHO... or they aren't too bright...


Mr. Lloyd,
I represent the Port Aransas Chamber of Commerce & Tourist Bureau and handle their marketing/advertising needs. My firm created the ad and photo you are referring to in your complaint. We were given that image, and the permission to use it, by a gentleman named Xxxx Xxxxxxxx. I apologize if you were not aware of this agreement. We would certainly not use any image without permission. And you can be assured that we will not use that particular image again. I understand that Mr. Xxxxxxxx has been trying to reach you for a couple of days to discuss this but has not been able to do so. He can explain and verify our agreement.
Should you have any additional comments or concerns, please let me know.

[Paul Granone]

If you put it on the internet, you have to expect people will use it for anything they want to.

Those who used the image may ...
Assume it is OK to use the image since it is on the internet
Assume you did not register the image copyright with the government. So use it anyway.
Assume you cannot afford to hire a lawyer and fight them for using the image

The bottom line is ...
If you want to keep the image private, then keep it private. Do not post it on the internet.

[Phil Colla]

Micheal, there is more than the copyright of the image at issue here. The advice you received about registering your images is correct. If the image is not registered, the amount you can obtain in a copyright suit is limited.

HOWEVER, the three guys in the photo have a different angle and can file suit. Their issue is not the copyright of the photo, registration, etc. Instead, their image is being used in a commercial promotion without their consent. It is the magazine's responsibility to clear those rights. Typically clearing model releases is in cooperation with the photographer. However, the magazine sidestepped you but that does not absolve them of their responsibility to clear rights on PEOPLE appearing in their PROMOTION. Your friends have a pretty solid case.

[Arthur Morris]

An interesting thread above with tons of mis- and bad information, too much of same to elaborate....

#1 question: Was the image used in an advertisement or was it used editorially? It makes a huge difference. (I think the former.)

I am confused as to which.... Let me know and I can tell you some facts.

[Phil Colla]

#1 question: Was the image used in an advertisement or was it used editorially? It makes a huge difference. (I think the former.) I am confused as to which

Michael's first post states "Here's the ad.", so my comments are based on this (that it is a promotion). The appearance of the page suggests this as well.

[Arthur Morris]

Michael's first post states "Here's the ad.", so my comments are based on this (that it is a promotion). The appearance of the page suggests this as well.

Assuming that it was an ad (it would have been nice to see the whole thing):
#1: everyone above is trashing the magazine. They are in no way responsible.
#2: the folks who stole the image are the Port Aransas folks. It should be easy to get in touch with them.
#3: this is advertising. $100 is ridiculously low.
#4: the fact that the copyright is not registered does not preclude a law suit.

I would advise Micheal to call first and then write the Port Aransas folks as follows:

a-you used a copyrighted image of mine without either my permission or payment in ..... (filll in issue and page #s).
b-I understand that you have also used the image in a brochure. Please let me know how many copies were printed.

The industry standard is triple the normal rate for infrigement usages. Get yourself a copy of FotoQuote by Cradoc to determine a price for each of the two usages. Find out if it was used in other issues of the magazine.

Foto Quote helped me to collect more than $33,000 from a publisher in Boston. Plus, it has a great basic education for pricing and selling images.

If you get stone-walled, ask if they have a lawyer. If not, get yourself an intellectual property rights lawyer and sue them. Best if possible to do it yourself and get some money.

If the image was used in just one issue and for say 10,000 brochures they would owe you many thousands of dollars.

If it is in fact an advertisement, then the folks appearing in the image can sue.

[Michael Lloyd]

Art,

Thanks for your reply.

#1- Absolutely correct. TP&W is a first class magazine and they are not to blame here. The ad agency is
#2- Working through PPA legal to address this.
#3- Agreed. Also note that they printed brochures that contained the image as well.
#4- :)

Thanks for taking the time to go through the posts. I've got to let the PPA attorney do her thing before I move forward. Soon.

Thanks again


Assuming that it was an ad (it would have been nice to see the whole thing):
#1: everyone above is trashing the magazine. They are in no way responsible.
#2: the folks who stole the image are the Port Aransas folks. It should be easy to get in touch with them.
#3: this is advertising. $100 is ridiculously low.
#4: the fact that the copyright is not registered does not preclude a law suit.

I would advise Micheal to call first and then write the Port Aransas folks as follows:

a-you used a copyrighted image of mine without either my permission or payment in ..... (filll in issue and page #s).
b-I understand that you have also used the image in a brochure. Please let me know how many copies were printed.

The industry standard is triple the normal rate for infrigement usages. Get yourself a copy of FotoQuote by Cradoc to determine a price for each of the two usages. Find out if it was used in other issues of the magazine.

Foto Quote helped me to collect more than $33,000 from a publisher in Boston. Plus, it has a great basic education for pricing and selling images.

If you get stone-walled, ask if they have a lawyer. If not, get yourself an intellectual property rights lawyer and sue them. Best if possible to do it yourself and get some money.

If the image was used in just one issue and for say 10,000 brochures they would owe you many thousands of dollars.

If it is in fact an advertisement, then the folks appearing in the image can sue.

[Arthur Morris]

You are welcome Michael. Are you a PPA member? (Sorry if I missed that.) You have them over a barrel. Let us know how it goes.

[Rocky Sharwell]

I wish I knew something about IP law....