7D MKII First Use Impressions

[Julie Brown]

I just got my new 7D MKII on Friday, but did not have time to go through the menu options or read the manual. Except for setting the date and time I made no changes, so all setting are default.

My first use was in a dimly lit gym shooting a kids basketball game Saturday morning, but I had not uploaded the files yet. To get a decent shutter speed the ISO was up to 16,000.

I was running my lawn mower on Saturday afternoon and spotted a Red-tailed Hawk feeding on a squirrel in my neighbor's yard. Fortunately it stayed while I got the camera and lens. A Delkin 32GB UDMA 7 CF 1000X card was still in the camera. This is significant, because it easily handled the 10fps-especially compared to the next two cards-a SanDisk UDMA @ 60MB/s and a SanDisk @ 30MB/s. I will definitely only use the newest cards in this camera.

After uploading the card, I sorted through the files with DPP 4. It was easy to mark and trash the rejects-it was also faster than in LR. I then imported all of the jpegs into LR5 but made no adjustments to this file except to downsize it for posting here. This shot is full frame. Out of the many images I shot I chose this one to post because of the high ISO. The next step is to convert the RAW file with DPP 4 and go through my regular workflow in LR and NIK to see how much better it could look. So far, I'm pretty impressed with the performance of this camera.

Canon 7D MKII; 300mm f2.8L IS II + 2XIII; 1/1000 sec @ f7.1; ISO 8000
Induro monopod with RRS monopod head
The weather was cold and the sky was heavily overcast.

[arash_hazeghi]

Very cool Julie, thanks for sharing your image and results, very cool! I like the prey. It doesn't show much noise but the details have taken a big hit too, feathers looks too smooth with no texture and overall the hawk is quite soft. I don't think you can realistically expect much at this ISO but I'm sure you will get better results at lower ISO. for this image I would personally go for something like 1/400sec ISO 3200 since you had a very nice lens, with optimal setting in DPP4 you should get some nice output!

TFS

[Julie Brown]

Very cool Julie, thanks for sharing your image and results, very cool! I like the prey. It doesn't show much noise but the details have taken a big hit too, feathers looks too smooth with no texture and overall the hawk is quite soft. I don't think you can realistically expect much at this ISO but I'm sure you will get better results at lower ISO. for this image I would personally go for something like 1/400sec ISO 3200 since you had a very nice lens, with optimal setting in DPP4 you should get some nice output!

TFS

Hi Arash.

Yes, watching the bird for 45 minutes was very cool! Soft and loss of feather detail was my impression as well. I never shoot jpeg. It is interesting to see what the camera's processing does to the image. I agree with you regarding the shutter speed. My first thought was to grab my tripod but I had taken off the gimbal head so it was the monopod I used. I certainly would not expect to get a good print of this image but I am hoping that I can get better results for screen viewing on my photoblog after processing the RAW file with DPP 4 and Neat Image NR-using your tutorial. BTW, I mentioned shooting kids indoor sports in my OP. That is a situation where I cannot use lower shutter speeds and have to make prints (no larger than 8x10) from very high ISO files, which I have done using my 5D MKIII.

Thank you for your comment.

[Diane Miller]

Great shot, and very impressive for that ISO! It's a little overexposed -- I've read that seems to be a bias for that camera, but as long as bright tones aren't blown out, that's fine. Better to bring exposure down that to boost it, in PP.

The grass looks sharper than the bird -- maybe out of the box all the focus sensors were active? Better to set one or a few right on the subject. That lens should be tack sharp.

I just got mine and can't process the raw files until LR/ACR is updated, and can't run the new DPP until I update my Mac OS. I'm in the process of focus-calibrating my lenses with the new LensAlign and FocusTune software, which is very nice, although the documentation is not up with the current version. The camera now allows calibration at both ends for a zoom lens, which my 5D3 did not.

[Julie Brown]

Great shot, and very impressive for that ISO! It's a little overexposed -- I've read that seems to be a bias for that camera, but as long as bright tones aren't blown out, that's fine. Better to bring exposure down that to boost it, in PP.

The grass looks sharper than the bird -- maybe out of the box all the focus sensors were active? Better to set one or a few right on the subject. That lens should be tack sharp.

I just got mine and can't process the raw files until LR/ACR is updated, and can't run the new DPP until I update my Mac OS. I'm in the process of focus-calibrating my lenses with the new LensAlign and FocusTune software, which is very nice, although the documentation is not up with the current version. The camera now allows calibration at both ends for a zoom lens, which my 5D3 did not.

Hi Diane. Right out of the box is a good description. There is a lot to learn about the focusing system on this camera. I have been using manual selection AF point expansion with 8 adjacent points on my 5D MKIII. After looking at the manual I realize that I had it set on Zone AF with 9 zones which I was able to move around with the multi-controller. For this image, DPP 4 shows 3 active AF points-1 on the eye and 2 on the neck and shoulder. I wanted to post a screen shot of the RAW file, but do not know how to do that.

Once I process the RAW file I will repost for comparison with the jpeg. Thanks for your comment!

[Ian Cassell]

I got mine last week and finally had it out of the box yesterday. Leave it to a man to play without reading the directions! I went out and got totally confused by all the AF options ... now, to the books!

[Julie Brown]

I got mine last week and finally had it out of the box yesterday. Leave it to a man to play without reading the directions! I went out and got totally confused by all the AF options ... now, to the books!

Ian, that is pretty much what I did too!:t3

[Diane Miller]

Camera manuals are what I regard as bedtime or beach reading! The 7D2 looks a lot like the 5D3 in terms of AF choices. Apparently the AF sensor is much better, as is the processing. If not, you'll hear a lot of whining here!

But the AF point choices the camera made for Julie sound excellent!

The way to do a screenshot varies with the computer -- Mac or PC. PC should work with the PrtScn key, but where it puts it I don't remember (bailed out of PCs when Vista came out). On the Mac, I use Snapz Pro for screenshots but there is a key combination in the OS that I don't remember. Google screen capture in whatever your OS is and you'll find it.

[Julie Brown]

Camera manuals are what I regard as bedtime or beach reading! The 7D2 looks a lot like the 5D3 in terms of AF choices. Apparently the AF sensor is much better, as is the processing. If not, you'll hear a lot of whining here!

But the AF point choices the camera made for Julie sound excellent!

The way to do a screenshot varies with the computer -- Mac or PC. PC should work with the PrtScn key, but where it puts it I don't remember (bailed out of PCs when Vista came out). On the Mac, I use Snapz Pro for screenshots but there is a key combination in the OS that I don't remember. Google screen capture in whatever your OS is and you'll find it.

The hawk's arrival was unexpected so I had no time to study the camera. My expectation was to shoot some goldfinches or something like that in the yard first. It was experimental mode with the zone AF as I put the block of points on the bird's head and watched the individual squares light up and dance around. It felt kind of weird letting the camera do this. You would think that having AF points right on the eye would yield the sharpest images, but there were many that looked sharper when the AF point was not directly on the eye. I will have to spend more time looking at the images at 100%. And time studying the camera with the manual!

Regarding MA: I have LensAlign, but find it very frustrating to use. Does the Focus Tune software make that process much easier?

OK, I got the screenshot, but now how do I get it in a post? I want to post it before I process a RAW file.

[David N Smith]

The Canon Digital Learning Center has a lot of info on the 7D II and it even has a whole tutorial on AF.

David

[Diane Miller]

You should be able to post the screenshot just like any other JPEG. If it's on your desktop (or anyplace easy to find) you can click on the symbol in the reply pane that looks like a tree in a square (third from right) and click the From Computer tab and Browse. It will be small when you see it but will be full-size when you post the reply.

The new FocusTune software is amazing! You'll need the new Mk II target and holder and the new short ruler. Product development has outrun their documentation so it's a little confusing right now. (They're working on it.) Don't get the long ruler -- it doesn't work with the software. And you'll need to use the back side of the short ruler with the software.

I've calibrated my long lenses, up to 1200mm, with the short ruler and it worked beautifully.

[Doug Schurman]

The Dot tune process is easier to use, works well and is free. Here's the video link that explains how to do it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zE50jCUPhM

[Julie Brown]

I had to downsize this in Photoshop to fit the posting guidelines.

146683

[Diane Miller]

The camera made an excellent choice of focus points! One sort of elephant-in-the-room thing is that the focus points shown will be the ones selected when the shutter button was pressed halfway down. If it is held there and then the image recomposed or the distance to subject changed, the focus won't update in One Shot. But I doubt that was the case here.

[Julie Brown]

RAW file converted in DPP 4 and processed in my usual workflow of LR and NIK. No NR on the bird. Does it look better than the jpeg out of the camera? Overall, I think that these ISO 8000 files are very useable as record shots for web viewing. Now that LR 5.7 supports 7D MKII RAW files I have already imported the rest of them.

146704

[arash_hazeghi]

Hi Julie, I'm afraid this one just doesn't work as an avian shot. The details are washed out and just not there and I think focus was off too leaving the hawk soft, so I would try again when conditions are better :S3: still nice for a record shot though!

[Julie Brown]

Hi Julie, I'm afraid this one just doesn't work as an avian shot. The details are washed out and just not there and I think focus was off too leaving the hawk soft, so I would try again when conditions are better :S3: still nice for a record shot though!

Arash, thanks for your critique. Is it impossible to get a decent image at very high ISO? If so, do I just chalk this up to poor technique?

[arash_hazeghi]

Arash, thanks for your critique. Is it impossible to get a decent image at very high ISO? If so, do I just chalk this up to poor technique?

Hi Julie, I wouldn't say impossible. It depends on one's standards and expectations and also for the intended application. People have different tolerance for noise, detail, sharpness etc. for some folks even an iphone photo is good enough. I tend to fall on the more critical category, small-size images that are posted on the internet forums don't impress me personally that much. I like my files to be tack sharp and clean when I view them at full size on my 30" screen or when I print them large. But if you want a small file at 1200 pixels and are not critical about it, it may work. The highest ISO that I have tried with my 1DX was 10,000 and the results were good too, but it was a snowy owl (white feathers tend not to show noise as much). For a complex scene I usually don't go above ISO 6400 for for anything that I care about, even with the large sensor in the 1DX at close range-that collects almost 2.5 times more light than the sensor in the 7D. I use ISO 3200 pretty often though, I think at least half of the photos I have posted here recently are 3200, and it produces great results.

It would certainly help if you could get the focus tack sharp in camera, if a photo is soft to begin with it will not make a quality output. Post processing is another factor, for high ISO you need excellent RAW conversion (DPP4 does that but you need to use the correct parameters) and also advanced noise reduction in Photoshop sometimes.

Congrats on your new body, I would personally try to enjoy it at ISO 1600 and below where it can produce nice detailed files in case you want to display them large or print them in future.

Best,

[Diane Miller]

High ISOs do cover up detail -- I think you could probably extract more from the raw file, but I would stay at ISO 1600 or below if possible. But for 16,000, I'm very impressed. Haven't had a chance to put mine to the test -- it's finally raining here in northern CA and I hope it continues for a long time. We need it desperately.

DxO Mark now has comparisons of the 7D2 and the 5D3, and the 7D2 is about a stop below the 5D3 in noise. With careful exposure to the right, the files should be very good, though. The AF look quite bit better than the 5D3, and of course you will often be able to do less cropping.

[Julie Brown]

Hi Julie, I wouldn't say impossible. It depends on one's standards and expectations and also for the intended application. People have different tolerance for noise, detail, sharpness etc. for some folks even an iphone photo is good enough. I tend to fall on the more critical category, small-size images that are posted on the internet forums don't impress me personally that much. I like my files to be tack sharp and clean when I view them at full size on my 30" screen or when I print them large. But if you want a small file at 1200 pixels and are not critical about it, it may work. The highest ISO that I have tried with my 1DX was 10,000 and the results were good too, but it was a snowy owl (white feathers tend not to show noise as much). For a complex scene I usually don't go above ISO 6400 for for anything that I care about, even with the large sensor in the 1DX at close range-that collects almost 2.5 times more light than the sensor in the 7D. I use ISO 3200 pretty often though, I think at least half of the photos I have posted here recently are 3200, and it produces great results.

It would certainly help if you could get the focus tack sharp in camera, if a photo is soft to begin with it will not make a quality output. Post processing is another factor, for high ISO you need excellent RAW conversion (DPP4 does that but you need to use the correct parameters) and also advanced noise reduction in Photoshop sometimes.

Congrats on your new body, I would personally try to enjoy it at ISO 1600 and below where it can produce nice detailed files in case you want to display them large or print them in future.

Best,

Arash, thank you for this detailed reply. I generally would not expect to get printable files at such a high ISO and will certainly keep your advice in mind when shooting birds. However, as I mentioned in the OP, at times I am forced to go this high and beyond when shooting kids sports indoors. My standard for this is to get the eyes sharp and a shutter speed fast enough to stop action. The amount of light in most of the gyms I work in is terrible. My 5D MKIII has performed this task pretty well, but I was hoping that the 7D MKII with its faster frame rate could do the job. And it has an anti-flicker feature too, if I am not mistaken.

I am wondering why the focus is off when the screen shot shows active AF points on the bird's head. Diane commented that the grass looked sharper. Do you micro adjust all of your lenses? I know Artie does.

[Julie Brown]

High ISOs do cover up detail -- I think you could probably extract more from the raw file, but I would stay at ISO 1600 or below if possible. But for 16,000, I'm very impressed. Haven't had a chance to put mine to the test -- it's finally raining here in northern CA and I hope it continues for a long time. We need it desperately.

DxO Mark now has comparisons of the 7D2 and the 5D3, and the 7D2 is about a stop below the 5D3 in noise. With careful exposure to the right, the files should be very good, though. The AF look quite bit better than the 5D3, and of course you will often be able to do less cropping.

Diane, I am glad it is raining in California. I have dear friends in Lee Vining and hate it that you all (including wildlife) have been suffering for so long. I love CA and will be there twice in 2015 for landscape workshops.

Thanks for the additional info. I am eager to learn more about the AF in both the 7D MKII and the 5D MKIII.

[Diane Miller]

I'm confused about your workflow -- is the OP an in-camera JPEG? If so, have you tried a comparison conversion in LR/ACR, with no NR and only the default sharpening? I got the 7D2 a few says before the LR/ACR conversion code came out, so I was shooting in raw + JPEG at first. When LR was updated I could clearly see a comparison to the in-camera JPEGs, which are set to the neutral setting, and I was shocked at how much the default in-camera NR for its JPEGs smeared out details, even at moderate ISOs. With all lenses now focus-calibrated (most were only minimally off) the same thing is still happening, even in careful tests where there is no contribution from camera shake. A sharp shot even at ISO 800 has noticeable loss of detail.

Of course, at your extreme ISO you may have no choice but to do some NR. It's all a matter of what will work for you. If you need to shoot at extreme ISOs, however, you might want to watch for the 1DX successor.

[arash_hazeghi]

I am wondering why the focus is off when the screen shot shows active AF points on the bird's head. Diane commented that the grass looked sharper. Do you micro adjust all of your lenses? I know Artie does.

Hi Julie,
Just because a sensor is illuminated in red does not mean that the area below it will be in sharp focus (that usually due to operator error), and in some cases focus calibration being off. your photo does look like front focus but in order to confirm you need to carefully test with a stationary target in good light and low ISO.

I haven't MA'ed any of my lenses, they all seem to be spot on.

Best,
Arash

[Diane Miller]

The illuminated sensors mean that those sensors were "focused" (to the abilities of the lens and body combo) when the shutter button was half-pressed. If you are in One Shot AF and the subject-to-camera distance changed while the button was half-pressed, the plane of focus will be the original plane that was focused, but those points will still show as active. I wouldn't expect focus calibration to be this far off. I'd suggest looking at the raw file with LR or ACR to see if it is really this soft or if this is some sort of overdone NR at work.

[Julie Brown]

The illuminated sensors mean that those sensors were "focused" (to the abilities of the lens and body combo) when the shutter button was half-pressed. If you are in One Shot AF and the subject-to-camera distance changed while the button was half-pressed, the plane of focus will be the original plane that was focused, but those points will still show as active. I wouldn't expect focus calibration to be this far off. I'd suggest looking at the raw file with LR or ACR to see if it is really this soft or if this is some sort of overdone NR at work.

Diane and Arash, I appreciate you taking the time to continue this conversation with me. I am including a jpeg of the unprocessed RAW file exported from LR for comparison to the in-camera jpeg from my OP. I never shoot jpeg. I only did so with the 7D MKII because LR could not convert the RAW files. Overall, the whole set of images I shot look soft. I accept responsibility for operator error, but did I also choose the wrong AF operation (manual selection of zone AF)? I normally use AF point expansion with manual selection. Since I am unfamiliar with DPP, maybe I don't understand how the active AF points relate to overall sharpness either.
146785

[arash_hazeghi]

I think your goal is understand if your lens needs calibration (?) If so, as I mentioned you need to carefully test your lens in good light with static subject and low ISO in single point AF to establish whether it needs adjustment or not, the image above doesn't really tell us much except for that it is soft.


best

[Julie Brown]

I think your goal is understand if your lens needs calibration (?) If so, as I mentioned you need to carefully test your lens in good light with static subject and low ISO in single point AF to establish whether it needs adjustment or not, the image above doesn't really tell us much except for that it is soft.


best

Agreed. This is a new lens. Calibration tests are next on my list. Thanks again for your help.

[Diane Miller]

Familiarity with DPP isn't relevant to how the active AF points relate to overall sharpness. That's just a camera and lens issue. Someone somewhere here today posted a ink to Canon's 7D2 AF guide. I downloaded it (a PDF) but haven't had time to look at it.

Then there is the issue of how to process. But I'm now guessing that the softness you see here is mostly the high ISO. The raw file looks the same to me. And i still think for that ISO it's excellent. But I think you'll see a big difference at lower ISOs.

[Giovanni Frescura]

The dicussion is very interesting.
Now I hav bought the new camera and I am tying to etup but I nee some help by people owner of this camera.
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- if I will use button * to change setting one shoot/af Servo or Af servo/One shoot it is working only when I press it ...how is it possible to organize this change without press continuos ?

- the vertical line on the right side about light meter is very very little isit possible make it bigger or less light ?

Thanks
Giovanni


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[Diane Miller]

You have a good point about the vertical light meter -- it is very small and hard to read. The design is not good, in addition to the size. I wonder if people who wear glasses find it even harder to see. I don't think there is any way to make it larger.

If I understand your first question, setting the * button for back button focus, you will always leave the camera set to AI Servo. When you hold it down you are locking focus, causing the camera to act like it is in OneShot.