Logical upgrade path from D300s?

[Jeff Loomis]

I'm new here, so I apologize if this has already been discussed at length.</SPAN>

I am an avid, but not professional, bird shooter currently shooting with a Nikon D300s. Despite rumors by hopeful D300 fans, there is no real indication that this body will ever see an upgrade (D400/D9000 or whatever). Instead, we have the choice of stepping down to a D7100 or going full frame. Don't get me wrong, the D7100 is a great camera, but seems intentionally handicapped when it comes to fps and buffer. Going full frame doesn't help much either, since the D610, DF, and D800 all have similar limitations. The only true action camera Nikon offers - Crop or Full Frame - is the D4 ($6000). Canon shooters are in the same boat, since the 7D and 1D Mk IV are also from the 2009 generation. I guess there are more realistic rumors of a 7D Mk II, but it still remains to be seen. </SPAN>

So my question is, given the current offerings, what is the logical step up for birds in flight? For those on this site that do not have the money for a D4 or 1Dx, what are you shooting?</SPAN>

[Ashley Cohen]

Hi Jeff,

I know how you feel, I'm feeling quite frustrated myself trying to work out a good camera thats at a good price and great for bird photography. It's difficult without an endless pot of money! Can I ask mostly importantly what lens are you using? Lens is really key to what camera is going to suit you unless you plan to upgrade very soon.

Currently I've got a Canon 70D, which although isn't as high end as a 7D on paper, gives you a high burst rate a solid feeling body, good video features and importantly nice images with lower noise than the 7D (useable at 3200 ISO). I've spent most of my time doing wildlife photography with a 7D (although I had experience with nikon before that) and smaller primes like the 300mm F4 and 400mm F5.6 before upgrading to the 300MM 2.8 MK I then I switched to nikon before switching back to canon and getting a 300mm F2.8 MK II which I have now sold. On Nikon I had the 500mm F4 VR lens, D300 and used my dads D7000 at times. So I have a experience with those cameras also.
I swapped back from nikon for various reasons mainly I was using the D300, and wanted to get a D800 but it was just out of my price range and I also missed the ease of use and controls of the Canon system. I do miss the better Dynamic range of the Nikon and ability to shift exposure without so much noise but the handling of the Canon cameras suits me better. I had considered the D7100 and had the money to get one at the time but I was just so put off by the Small buffer and slow responsiveness. My dad at the time was using both the D300s and D7000, the D300s for speed and AF and the D7000 for higher IQ and lower noise. He decided to upgrade to the D7100 but ran into numerous troubles, personally I think because he was trying to push his 300mm F4 with the 1.7x on a camera with such a high megapixel sensor and also because both cameras we tried both developed faults with the menu's and locking up. He's now happily using a 1D MK3 canon which I've tried and is very fast and sharp even at 10Mpx though he tried the 7D and didn't get on with it.

The reason I sold my 300mm was simply because using it with a 2x most of the time wasn't giving me the speed and IQ with the 70D that I could get with a 1D or FF body. Not feeling like I got what I wanted out of the lens I feel it was a wise choice. Now Im without a lens ( borrowing my dads spare sigma 120-400mm zoom) and using a mid range camera the choices are limiting. A lens is my first need, then a camera upgrade in time. I've considered he Nikon Route many times again, with the D800 still stuck in my mind but as you say it has it's limits and with a household on Canon it gives me more flexibility. Hopefully a 7D Mk II shows up and it's the camera to suit the needs of most wildlife togs. I'm looking at the 5D MK III too but really you need to team that with a 600mm or 500mm at least if you want the reach and IQ.

[Jeff Loomis]

Hi Ashley,

Thanks for response. Yes, bird photography in particular seems like it requires deep pockets. I do all my bird & wildlife photography with the 300mm f4 and 1.7TC. While this combo works well on my D300s, it sounds like any IQ limitations might be more noticable on a newer high MP camera. So if I need to consider a lens purchase too (e.g.: 500mm f4) then the expense goes up even more. I have only ever shot on a 'crop' body, so I'm used to the reach and worry that a full frame body might be a big adjustment in that regard (Although some people say they can crop further in post, since the images are so good).

If I stick with my D300s and work on getting a 500mm lens, that would certainly be a nice upgrade. And it would be a valid upgrade that would work with any future body (full frame or crop). If the 7D Mk II comes out, my thinking might change. I guess I'll continue to save my pennies and see what happens with the new camera market.

[Ashley Cohen]

Hi Jeff

Funny how you have the same setup my dad had and he's called jeff too :bg3: . I strongly suggest you don't go for the D7100 using the 300mm and 1.7x I seen how much my dad struggled with that setup and yet did better with the D300. I would strongly suggest the upgraded lens, though it depends how much your invested in Nikon as to what system I would get get a 500mm On. The new MK2 500mm Canon is very nice indeed but carries a heavy price tag. I also think Canon lenses do better with extenders so teaming the 500mm with a 1.4x will have an edge on canon unless nikon bring out a new 500mm though nikon isn't really keeping prices that low these days compared to canon's offerings, just look at the 800mm F5.6 VR!

It all comes down to what your happy with and what camera and lens combo give you the image quality and reach you are after. The D800 is a cracking camera and you wouldn't have to worry about loosing the DX sensor as it gives you the same equivalent focal length as DX when cropped to 15.5Mpx, which is more than you get on the D300s and will still give higher quality images. Bang for the buck in terms of IQ the D800 is very hard to beat!

Im lost myself with what to do, Even if a new camera came out and it stopped me getting a lens right away it would still give me another route to consider rather than going around in circles. It just seems like with the pro cameras being the go to gear at the moment, no one is in a rush to make 1.6 Crop cameras.

[David Stephens]

AF capture, accuracy and tracking are the to priorities for BIF shooting. A high quality lens is a very close second. I'm a Canon shooter, but my Nikon shooting buddies are mostly using the 300/f2.8 (with and without TC) or the 600/f4. They're getting great results with either the D4 or the D7100, but the D4 is faster and easier to use.

I wouldn't suggest changing brands, but, if you do, the Canon 1D X, combined with the 600/f4-II and both series-III TCs is really the ultimate birding rig. At 1.5-lbs lighter, the 500/f4-II is no slouch. Going with a Series I lens will save money and get you close in IQ, but the S-I 600mm is too heavy to hand hold. The 5D MkIII, is excellent, until you start adding TCs and then it becomes a bear to AF quickly, particularly with the 2.0X TC-III. I currently use the 5D3, but will move up to the 1D X as soon as funds allow.

[Dan Brown]

Another option is a good used D3 or D3s. Great cameras, high frame rate, good noise handling and a good used one can be picked up for about the same price as a D800. If the shutter wears out, a new one supposedly costs only about $400.

[Jeff Loomis]

Thanks all! After 5 years of shooting birds, my interest has not cooled off at all. On paper, I am ready to upgrade both lens and body (500mm f4 and D4). But I don't currently have the funds for either. A D7100 would be doable, but not sure it's the best use choice. The body I want (newer crop sensor with great AF, 8+ fps, and buffer to handle it) doesn't exist. If a proper D300 replacement were released, that might change things. A D3s is a great body that has crossed my mind, but has the older 12 MP sensor. I'm sure its still great, but I have no experience with full frame cameras so its hard for me to judge.

The lens is another story. Most birders I see have the 500mm or 600mm with 1.4TC. I know that 300 2.8 and 200-400 have a following too, but the 500 seems to be the best option for reach and weight. Unfortunately the cost puts them all out of reach, at least for now. I think my best option is to keep saving and see what new products are released in the next year or so. If nothing else, maybe some of the current gear will be available at lower prices as new versions are released.

Thanks again for the input, and Ashley give my best to your dad (a fellow Jeff and Nikon shooter).

[Ashley Cohen]

Cheers Jeff, afraid after all the issues I mentioned above he's now a Canon shooter. Thought I mentioned it above but I was rambling. He's got a 1D MK3 and loving it.

[Jeff Loomis]

Oh no, he went over to the dark side! Just kidding, I would consider the 1D Mk4 but I would have to start over with lenses. For now, I'll keep saving my pennies and see how the landscape changes in the next year.