Manual vs. Aperture Priority

[Linda Dulak]

I've been following the discussion on manual exposure vs. aperture priority in the landscape forum here: http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/115612-Virga-Rain-Snow-At-Sunset

I was introduced to manual exposure when shooting birds in flight and it's something that I absolutely agree with. Calibrating the exposure for the bird will allow the camera to ignore whatever background the bird flies against. I use nothing but manual exposure now for birds in flight. I've also used it for multi-flash hummingbird photography. However, I'm really confused by the discussion in the above referenced thread as there never was an answer to the question of why manual exposure is recommended for landscape photography. In my thinking, there are multiple ways to get to a proper exposure for a landscape where you can take into account the various aspects of the scene. It's not moving against different backgrounds and you have time (usually) to adjust exposures.


So, for you pros out there that use manual exposure for various different types of photography, why do you use it? And why is it superior to that of aperture priority or even shutter priority? While you may have the experience to accurately judge just what parameters to use, how can you translate that for me, someone who is not a pro and has success using aperture priority fairly successfully in a variety of situations. It's always been my experience that I can best control my exposure in most situations by dialing in exposure compensation and checking the histogram or the preview photo and blinkies. Is there a better way? If so, educate me.

Linda

[Doug Herr]

If aperture priority works for you, use it. Not a lot of difference between dialing in exposure compensation if the background is changing and changing an aperture or shutter speed setting if the lighting on the subject is changing.

I'm comfortable with manual exposure mostly because I don't have to think about how the particular camera I'm using responds to the various light intensities in the picture. Set exposure for the subject then leave it alone. Odds are that when the light on the subject changes the lighting on the background will change too; with a dumb spot meter all I have to remember, no matter what camera I use, is the meter gives a reading for an exposure that will be a neutral tone. Adjust from there depending on the subject's variance from neutral.

[Doug Brown]

I'm a big proponent of manual exposure for BIF, but I see no compelling reason to use it for landscapes. I'd be interested in what other people have to say.

[Don Railton]

Hello all
One situation where Manual exposure is best in landscape is in the generation of composite or stitch photos where you don't want the camera to adjust the exposure for the darker areas used in the composite. The different exposures will give a very patch final image with the borders very obvious unless you do a lot of PP work to fix... Previously I used AV all the time, I could not see why Manual would be better but with an open mind I changed after I photographed a composite in Av mode and had the problem described above. I then found switching between modes lead to confusion when in a pressure situation (=missed shots) so I have now decided to stay manual and polish the skills in that mode only. One thing I have found surprising in the post mentioned above and other Manual vs Av discussions is the passion & single minded approach people have for their preferred mode. I'm a listen, learn and then do your own thing sort of guy...

DON

[Diane Miller]

A valid and well-stated question, Linda -- thanks for bringing it up. BIF or similar situations, with the subject in constant light and the BG changing quickly, is definitely the place for M -- the subject is the thing you want to expose for. And Don has an excellent point about holding the exposure constant in the different frames for a composite, and M is the most direct and simplest way to do that. Otherwise you have to remember the SS and aperture decided on for the best overall exposure, and offset each frame to match. But as a footnote, PS does a surprising job of compensating and matching exposures in a situation where you forget to do that. I certainly wouldn't want to put the burden on PS, but it might save some older scenes where someone didn't go to M, that they might otherwise delete.

For a static subject, exposure is exposure, and there is no right or wrong in how you get it. Bu there might be a better or worse for a given situation. Whatever your choice, you'll be balancing ISO, SS and aperture. In some situations it may be easier to fix two of the parameters (Av or Tv) and let the other one vary accoring to the camera's exposure reading and any offset you have dialed in, such as some OE on a gray day.

It's unfortunately too common to see workshop situations where a "pro" tries to browbeat inexperienced participants into using M. Yes, a beginning photographer should become familiar with aperture, SS and ISO and how to use them. Eventually they should become comfortable with M. But that's not something to try to teach beginners who have paid a lot and traveled a long way for 3 days in a scenic location and want to go home with some decent pictures. (If they knowingly enroll in an exposure boot camp workshop -- fine.) It reminds me of a ski instructor who tries to push students into going down slopes they aren't ready for. Stressing M in situations like that can be more about the teacher's ego than about teaching.

[David Stephens]

I don't consider myself a pro even though I've sold prints and files for hundreds of dollars each, I don't pay my rent with photography. My usage of Av mode in a landscape shot kicked off the discussion in the thread referenced by the OP.

I began photography almost 55-years ago and one of my first projects was to build a pen-hole camera, load it in the darkroom, shoot my buddies, process the film and make a contact print. My first camera that I bought myself was an all manual TLR and only when I was in college did I buy a Spotmatic with a match-needle meter. So, I HAD TO understand exposure to get decent pictures in those days and, despite old age, I haven't forgotten everything that I learned.

I use two modes, M and Av (aperture priority). 99% of the time I use Av combined with a center-weighted average meter reading (spot vs. the various other metering modes is a whole other thread). Also, I'm a firm believer in ETTR (expose to the right) for digital photography. I keep my "blinky" warnings turned on in my preview screen and my preview shows the RGB histogram. My bodies are Canon pro-sumer and both show all the setting in the VF for me to review as I'm shooting.

I prefer Av mode because I like working with the wheel on the back of my camera to tune EV + or - for the subject and situation at hand. Since I ETTR, I tend to shoot most images in the +1/3EV to +1EV range. I know that some subjects, like white-headed birds, may demand -EV to avoid over exposing the head. I set my ISO first, according to the general conditions. If I'll be shooting BIF, my default is usually ISO 800 so that my shutter speed will be over 1/1000 when I'm hand holding my 500/f4. I could use shutter priority, but I prefer controlling DOF with the aperture setting.

I'll use Manual for multi-shot panoramas or situations where the BG of a moving subject is likely to change. For BIF against a blue sky, I'll stay with Av mode, but if there are broken clouds, with blue sky, white clouds and dark clouds, then M is the only way to go.

Most of the time Av works for my subjects. All the same information is there and if I must switch to M, it's an easy enough transition. Whether setting for M or Av I think, ISO first, aperture second, +-EV third and, finally, look at where the shutter speed ended up. If shutter speed is too low, I either open the aperture or increase ISO. If SS is too high for circumstances, I'll stop down more or lower ISO.

Another thing that I incorporate into my thinking is "important highlights". Some people expose to avoid blowing out ANY highlight. I consider whether the highlight is important and will ETTR give me a better over all file compared to totally eliminating blowout. Other photographers load my images into PS or some other program and declare, "You blew some highlights", my question in return is, "Were they important to the image?" I would venture to say that when the percentage is small, most potential buyers don't care. (I know that stock image buyers do indeed look at histograms, so I'm talking about print buyers). So, if I've got a big bright sky and some stuff in the FG that I want to bring up, it's valid to blow a small percentage of highlights to get the overall look that I want. Is a GND a better solution, maybe or maybe not, depending on the "importance" of the highlights.

[Don Lacy]

Linda the simple answere for me is if my subject is in constant light I will shoot Manual if the light on the subject is rapidly changing I will go to Av.More directly as far as landscapes go there is no real advantage to manual over Av if your are using the histogram to fine tune your exposure

[Dan Brown]

For panoramic stitches that include the sky, AV will not work very well as each frame could and probably will,have a different exposure of the sky. For BIF, AV will fail at some point as the BG effects the exposure. For most other applications, AV will be fine, just use exposure compensation +- and keep the subject to the right of the histogram with a tiny bit of blinkies.

I think learning to shoot in manual is the best, but learning AV is very important too, so when you need it, you know how to use it.

I sometimes also shoot in auto iso, which works like AV, sort of as you +- using the same controls, at least with Nikon bodies. FWIW!

[James Shadle]

It's important to know how and when to use all exposure modes available to you.
I've found that when the light is fairly consistent and either my backgrounds or subjects have a wide range of tonality manual exposure works best.
When the light changes frequently or you want to experiment with different apertures, many times AV works best.
When only one shutter speed will do, TV.

Best for action, birds in flight etc., Manual
Best for landscapes, it doesn't really matter. Whatever you are most comfortable with.

[Linda Dulak]

Thanks everyone for your opinions. I hadn't thought about the use of manual for landscape images I might want to stitch together before. I've always used manual for the multi-flash hummingbird pictures I've done but I think also it would be important for trap photos such as Alan Murphy has been showing lately.

Linda

[Roman Kurywczak]

Best for landscapes, it doesn't really matter. Whatever you are most comfortable with.

Let's just say I disagree.....and in the spirit of the holidays and I don't want to spend a fortune on buying you antacids .....I'll leave it at that. Sorry Linda.

[Sandy Witvoet]

Great discussion and Poll.... I think we need a "It depends" (which would take an answer out of the 80% decision) on the Poll options.... Just a thought based on the responses so far! But, Thanks, Linda!

[Roman Kurywczak]

I guess it is OK since I haven't been told no :) What is the difference between the FG and sky in a typical landscape scenario when the sky turns red and you get the beautiful color? If you are doing the image in camera.....you have to use a filter to balance it....so once you put the filter in front of the lens you really have to figure out how to dial in compensation....which in my opinion is not "easier" than manual mode...but feel free to tell my how and why AV is easier in that situation and show me examples of how it worked. If you are bracketing to combine exposures or otherwise.......that I believe both are as capable.....dial in 0 compensation....and bracket.....but again...does that make it easier or better? I use manual as I don't want my camera to make any decision. Finally.....a few names were tossed around for landscape photography and I am trying to tread very lightly here......look at the masters of landscape photography....you know the guys featured as landscape masters......I know of none of them that use AV for the first reason mentioned above. At other times......you can use P (and it doesn't stand for pro)......at that time my camera is away....but I can't argue the philosophy of the comment that it is what the maker wanted. I can tell you that I have come across that philosophy more than a few times when I was the landscape moderator and my answer will be the same: it is a critique forum. If you take a picture at noon and use the same philosophy that it is what you intended....then there really is no reason to critique. The #1-#10 reason working pro landscape photographers use manual mode is that it gets you the correct exposure quickly. Point the camera at the neutral toned sky....set your meter at 0. Point it at the middle toned FG. Note the difference and set exposure to that. Whip out filters and get the shot. If I am bracketing I will keep it at sky exposure and bracket down. So those of you who use AV.....show me and the rest of the working landscape pros how you do it.

[David Stephens]

It's silly to say that making EV adjustments is easier with M than with Av (or Tv for the same reasons). You have to make a judgment about the situation and react. With Av, you turn the dial on the back of the Canon camera, then look at the Preview and Histogram and turn it more or less. With landscape photography you have luxurious time usually to dial in a setting. For those of us that ETTR, we really are just worried about important highlights not being blown, since we know that we'll adjust the exposure (usually downward) in Raw conversion. If DR is too high we can chose between a filter or realistic HDR. It's absolutely the same process with M or Av. Those of us that use Av for wildlife and birds in flight (dependent on BG) find it an obvious choice for shooting landscapes. Why go to M when you used to working in Av?

With both manual and Av you have the same information and you simply adjust to it in a slightly different manner. Saying one is superior to the other is simply dogmatic.

[Roman Kurywczak]

I believe Linda asked why working pros used manual mode so I answered as one of them. You also did not address the simple question: how does AV work.....In a pre sunrise situation when there is easily a 3-9 stop difference between the FG and sky and you use a filter. How do you adjust the compensation using AV?

[Jim Neiger]

IMO, it is much easier to consistently arrive at correct exposures in manual because you don't have to understand what the camera is going to do as your starting point. In any auto mode, the exposure the camera comes up with is a moving target. Everytime you move the camera, the light changes, or your subject moves, the camera may give a different exposure, and then you compensate from there. That is much more difficult to do consistently than working in manual mode, IMO.

[dankearl]

I am not sure why it is considered "dogmatic" to suggest that being comfortable with using the ONLY method of exposing properly that will work
in all situations with all camera's, and it is not "dogmatic" to insist on using a method that will not work as well in a lot of situations.
I do apologize that what began as a simple suggestion that a photographer could have improved a photo by using a different form
of exposure compensation turned into a silly internet argument that I allowed myself to get bogged down in.

I still think and I don't think I am wrong that a vast majority of people who earn their living as professional photographers
would agree with me. I have been to numerous workshops with some of the best photographers in the world and not one
suggested that people who want to improve their photography skills use anything other than Manual mode in any instance.

If you don't want to, feel free, making the argument that any other way is the "best" and not the one you like is fine but I don't think is correct.
Feel free to use the mode you want, I am sorry I spoke up in this instance.

[Linda Dulak]

This is an interesting discussion. I guess I'm still not convinced. I've been on trips where I've seen the pros constantly shooting at the sky and then at some neutral gray to try to get their manual settings. They are missing so much that's happening right in front of them when the light is changing constantly. They may have the money or the connections to go back again and again to these places, but I probably will get one chance in a lifetime, or rather what's left of it. I'm not a youngster and had a very good career in a scientific area and now I'm having fun with photography, having picked up a camera the first time 10 years ago. So, I'm trying to get the most out of my short "second career". I want to take the best photos that I can, but I'll never be a pro so I have to get the most out of my camera as I can. I'm not sure I've got the ability to learn to control my camera completely manually at this point in my life. But there are certain situations where I can do it and now I've learned some of the situations where it may be useful. This discussion has pointed those situations out to me, but I'm totally put off by individuals who say manual exposure is the only way to go for all photography.

I've spent some time going over posted photos in various forums here, but most specifically in the landscape forum since that seems to be the source of the initial discussion about exposure method. It's very interesting to see that the method used to determine exposure is rarely mentioned, especially by the people that I consider to be pros. Where it's mentioned by other posters, it can frequently be the source of critique and that can get very nasty at times. So, if the idea of manual exposure is so important to pros, why don't you make an effort to state it in the posts of your photos? Generally the specifics of the shot are indicated, ISO, shutter speed, f-stop, etc. But not metering or exposure method? How about some teaching of how the pros do it, then, rather than just coming down hard on someone who uses aperture priority? This is supposed to be a site that teaches with critique, but if the pros don't show how it should be done, how are we others supposed to learn? And anyone who says that just because I or someone else didn't use the method they prefer they won't bother to critique an image isn't working to help anyone. I've just seen this type of critique too often for me. This isn't helpful at all.

Linda

[Linda Dulak]

Roman: How do you adjust the exposure using manual exposure when you put a filter in place ? Perhaps I'm missing something here?

Linda

[Roman Kurywczak]

I have no problem with the word "dogmatic". I am dogmatic when it comes to getting the right exposure....all the time. I have taught countless clients over 10 years how to do this and take great pride when they embrace manual mode for the reasons Jim mentioned. I am also "dogmatic" that I hate the term I will fix it in post processing. Fix it in camera. There is no reason to get it wrong with the histogram......so no excuses.

If you think I haven't tried AV mode over the last 25 years of photography....then you would be mistaken. I do find manual mode easier once you understand exposure and what you are dealing with.....especially in landscapes. I see no reason to use AV.....even if the clouds come in and out. I can easily adjust for that but that could possibly be the #1 reason to use AV.....but I still can do just as well in M....and I have. I want to mention why I don't ever use AV for wildlife.....look up the definition....wildlife is unpredictable....how do you know what it is going to do.....even in a setup. Let's go over a scenario.....you are in AV mode and we are shooting a stationary duck that the BG cant possibly change.....you are making your point to me when a bald eagle come down and plucks the duck out of the water and flies off with it into the sky. You know who is doing a victory dance? The guy in manual mode. It is wildlife and I have never found myself in a position that I knew where I knew exactly what was going to occur......boy scout motto...be prepared and AV would have failed you in that scenario. So yes....I am dogmatic.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Hey Linda,

I meter the sky....mid tone....set the exposure to 0. Meter the FG......note how many stops it is below the sky....set the exposure to that.....hand hold my filter or stacked filters over the lens and it will be correct. Make sense? Sorry I was typing when you asked.

[Roman Kurywczak]

BTW...now that the light changes....I just check my meter for the FG...and keep it dialed in there. Btw...this is a similar method for birds when it is cloudy.

And sorry for last edit...if it is an image from me, it is in manual but i will make it my point to post it from now on....so thanks for the heads up.

[Roman Kurywczak]

BTW....No one has yet to answer how they would take the image in AV mode in the scenario I described above....so I will reiterate.....Ho would you expose for the above scenario in AV mode and please provide links to landscape photographer masters who do so.

[James Shadle]

Roman: How do you adjust the exposure using manual exposure when you put a filter in place ? Perhaps I'm missing something here?

Linda

He could always use a indecent meter and then adjust the exposure based on the filter's factor:w3.

[Roman Kurywczak]

Yeah....but then i would have to use an abacus. Split ND's aren't' quite as easy in AV mode :Whoa!::cheers:.

[Jim Neiger]

This is an interesting discussion. I guess I'm still not convinced. I've been on trips where I've seen the pros constantly shooting at the sky and then at some neutral gray to try to get their manual settings. They are missing so much that's happening right in front of them when the light is changing constantly. They may have the money or the connections to go back again and again to these places, but I probably will get one chance in a lifetime, or rather what's left of it. I'm not a youngster and had a very good career in a scientific area and now I'm having fun with photography, having picked up a camera the first time 10 years ago. So, I'm trying to get the most out of my short "second career". I want to take the best photos that I can, but I'll never be a pro so I have to get the most out of my camera as I can. I'm not sure I've got the ability to learn to control my camera completely manually at this point in my life. But there are certain situations where I can do it and now I've learned some of the situations where it may be useful. This discussion has pointed those situations out to me, but I'm totally put off by individuals who say manual exposure is the only way to go for all photography.

I've spent some time going over posted photos in various forums here, but most specifically in the landscape forum since that seems to be the source of the initial discussion about exposure method. It's very interesting to see that the method used to determine exposure is rarely mentioned, especially by the people that I consider to be pros. Where it's mentioned by other posters, it can frequently be the source of critique and that can get very nasty at times. So, if the idea of manual exposure is so important to pros, why don't you make an effort to state it in the posts of your photos? Generally the specifics of the shot are indicated, ISO, shutter speed, f-stop, etc. But not metering or exposure method? How about some teaching of how the pros do it, then, rather than just coming down hard on someone who uses aperture priority? This is supposed to be a site that teaches with critique, but if the pros don't show how it should be done, how are we others supposed to learn? And anyone who says that just because I or someone else didn't use the method they prefer they won't bother to critique an image isn't working to help anyone. I've just seen this type of critique too often for me. This isn't helpful at all.

Linda

Linda,

I always list manual exposure in the specs when I post images. Your issue with photographers missing images because they are busy metering something is not an issue if things are done properly. In fact its just the opposite. Manual mode allows me to determine the coorect exposue ahead of time and always be ready for action. For the type of photography that I specialize in, BIF, manual mode is REQUIRED to get consistently correct exposures. This is not possible with any auto mode. I also think that manual is the easiest way to get consistently correct exposures with other types of photography, but if you have still subjects and non changing bgs, other modes will work if used properly. I go into all of this in great detail in my e-book.

[David Stephens]

... Let's go over a scenario.....you are in AV mode and we are shooting a stationary duck that the BG cant possibly change.....you are making your point to me when a bald eagle come down and plucks the duck out of the water and flies off with it into the sky. You know who is doing a victory dance? The guy in manual mode. It is wildlife and I have never found myself in a position that I knew where I knew exactly what was going to occur......boy scout motto...be prepared and AV would have failed you in that scenario. So yes....I am dogmatic.

What color is the duck? Is the bald eagle an adult or juvenile? Is it full sun, overcast or broken sky? Is the sun behind us? Am I allowed to adjust my EV wheel when I see circumstances change?

[Roman Kurywczak]

Why do you refuse to answer the landscape question? That is what this thread was originally about.

[David Stephens]

Why do you refuse to answer the landscape question? That is what this thread was originally about.

If you're talking to me, IMO, I answered Linda's OP with my first post.

[Roman Kurywczak]

I'll call this one as we just won't agree and change each others opinions so I will leave with this thought: people should look at the galleries of photographers and decide who's images they want their images to look like. See what method they use and try to follow their teaching. You have a bit of and advantage over me as you have been photographing longer than I have been alive but I will let the galleries do the talking and continue teach why manual mode is the only way to go.

[David Stephens]

Anyone interested can follow the link in my signature.

[David Stephens]

Roman's out, so here's something for others to consider that he originally brought up. Suppose that you're shooting a mallard hen in full sun, on the water, with the sun behind you. If you're like me, you've added a bit of +EV to ETTR all those brown feathers and make it easier to lift some shadows a bit in Raw conversion. Now an adult bald eagle (white head and all) flies in and grabs the duck. Would M mode without further adjustment blow out the whites on the eagle's head? Would Av mode without further adjustment blow out the eagle's head? The answer is that both modes would blow out the white head if you'd set exposure for a brown duck and it'd be aggravated if you'd ETTR.

If either photographer saw the eagle coming in, then they could starting dialing out the +EV and putting in some -EV. The Av mode person would likely spin the wheel on the back of the camera and the M mode person would likely spin the aperture or SS dial. Either way an adjustment is needed and it'll take experience to do it right. Both modes allow for adjustment, but just in different ways.

For some people, it's preferable to be dogmatic and have black and white rules that are never "broken". (There's nothing wrong with this and much of the world operates like this). Others prefer to think about things and understand what's going on and then choosing what to do based on circumstances.

[Roman Kurywczak]

As you want to continue to insult....you are beyond wrong in your assessment above and shows how stubborn you are. I have exposed for whites on the mallard....because if she flaps her wings.....the underside is very bright to white......so my manual exposure was correct for her and the bald eagle. And if they fly anywhere against a bright sky or dark mangroves.....my exposure was and is correct as I fire away. Sorry to say....you are wrong......but go ahead and try to keep insulting....I guess you don't care about BG's either or time of day. AV works great midday.

[David Stephens]

Gee Roman, I'm sorry if you feel insulted. I thought that I was responding to a question that you brought up and no one seemed to answer. If I insulted you, it was not intentional.

[James Shadle]

Boys, boys let's play nice.
With practice, regardless of exposure mode you should be able to quickly change the exposure value.
From my experience, when using manual in consistent light I only worry about making an adjustment for my subject. Only one adjustment.
When using AV I must consider the subject and the new background(s) (eagle flying off with said duck). Potentially many adjustments.

[James Shadle]

With both manual and Av you have the same information and you simply adjust to it in a slightly different manner. Saying one is superior to the other is simply dogmatic.

Not true. You are assuming that everyone uses the camera's reflected light meter.
Using an indecent light meter or simply using the sunny 16 rule can offer very different results than the reflected light meter used in AV mode.
Not dogmatic, rather pragmatic.

[Roman Kurywczak]

A valid and well-stated question, Linda -- thanks for bringing it up. BIF or similar situations, with the subject in constant light and the BG changing quickly, is definitely the place for M -- the subject is the thing you want to expose for. And Don has an excellent point about holding the exposure constant in the different frames for a composite, and M is the most direct and simplest way to do that. Otherwise you have to remember the SS and aperture decided on for the best overall exposure, and offset each frame to match. But as a footnote, PS does a surprising job of compensating and matching exposures in a situation where you forget to do that. I certainly wouldn't want to put the burden on PS, but it might save some older scenes where someone didn't go to M, that they might otherwise delete.

For a static subject, exposure is exposure, and there is no right or wrong in how you get it. Bu there might be a better or worse for a given situation. Whatever your choice, you'll be balancing ISO, SS and aperture. In some situations it may be easier to fix two of the parameters (Av or Tv) and let the other one vary accoring to the camera's exposure reading and any offset you have dialed in, such as some OE on a gray day.

It's unfortunately too common to see workshop situations where a "pro" tries to browbeat inexperienced participants into using M. Yes, a beginning photographer should become familiar with aperture, SS and ISO and how to use them. Eventually they should become comfortable with M. But that's not something to try to teach beginners who have paid a lot and traveled a long way for 3 days in a scenic location and want to go home with some decent pictures. (If they knowingly enroll in an exposure boot camp workshop -- fine.) It reminds me of a ski instructor who tries to push students into going down slopes they aren't ready for. Stressing M in situations like that can be more about the teacher's ego than about teaching.

Well I teach plenty of "beginners" and they go home with spectacular and not decent images......in manual mode. Maybe you went with the wrong leader :) . Nobody....not one person has said why AV will work better in a pre-sunrise or post-sunset situation....If you want to talk about ego.....let's talk about stubbornness and trying to justify "decent" images. I can give you a link to my workshop participants.....so if you want to use the words you chose....show me the gallery or back it up.....otherwise....an apology is in order.

[David Stephens]

Not true. You are assuming that everyone uses the camera's reflected light meter.
Using an indecent light meter or simply using the sunny 16 rule can offer very different results than the reflected light meter used in AV mode.
Not dogmatic, rather pragmatic.

Where do you buy one of those indecent light meters? :bg3:

[James Shadle]

I'm disappointed that this thread has become personal.
While I don't necessarily agree that teaching manual exposure is an ego thing, I also don't think that opinion requires an apology.
Thread is now closed.

[Arthur Morris]

Jeez, this discussion is old hat. As I have been saying for years, it is simply a myth that "real photographers" (substitute "professional photographers" if you wish) work in Manual mode 100% of the time. Over the years I have come to work in Manual mode more and more. And I almost always work in Manual mode when doing birds in flight. But I work in Av (or Tv) mode about 25% of the time as there are many situations where working in an automatic mode is far faster, far easier, and much simpler.

Furthermore many folks, including the proponents of the myth above, fail to understand that when the framing is constant (as it would usually be in Landscape photography) Manual mode is Av mode, that is to say that whatever exposure is correct when you are working in Manual can easily be duplicated in Av mode by anyone who understands exposure.

Learn how, why, and when to use all exposure modes and you will become a much better photographer.

[Arthur Morris]

BTW, I do not use any exposure mode > 80% of the time :)

[Martin Dunn]

At the risk of giving away my age here, I still use a hand held meter to take an incident light reading for static photography. That way I am measuring the light itself, rather than the subject.

[Arthur Morris]

At the risk of giving away my age here, I still use a hand held meter to take an incident light reading for static photography. That way I am measuring the light itself, rather than the subject.

Hi Martin, Here is what I have written often when asked about incident meters: "Most folks who use incident meters have no clue as to how to wind up with the correct exposure for subjects of varying tonalities."

Please do not take that personally as it just reflects my three decades of experience. Heck, for most of the first decade I had no clue as to how to get the right exposure using any method.... I'd be glad to give you a short quiz if you like. And if you promise not to take it personally :).

[Charles Glatzer]

All the Metering Patterns and methods work, some are simply easier to implement than others in certain circumstances. What matters most is that a pattern or method affords the photographer a consistent means of determining exposure.

Metering Patterns determine exposure, Priority Modes alter exposure variables.

Manual Priority will not in and of itself make you a more competent photographer, but it can often help eliminate the problematic variables that lead to inconsistent exposures. Knowing how and when to use Pattens and Modes most effectively to best advantage is the key.

All Priority Modes be they Auto or Manual will yield the same exposure when used correctly. However, some methods are simply easier to implement than others in certain circumstances. To truly be a consistent photographer you need to understand the benefits and detriments of each pattern and method. Knowing how the pattern or reference value determines the recommended exposure, be it Eval/Matrix, Spot, Incident, or Reference Values is paramount to this understanding. The key to accurate metering lies in knowing how much to adjust the variables from the exposure recommendation provided by the in-camera pattern, reference value, or hand-held meter to render tonal values in the image as desired.

Maintaining proper exposure for subjects or scenes in unchanging light, when altering the field of view, camera orientation, and or background is where Manual Priority really shines.

Aperture (Av) Priorty works well in quite a few situations, especially when you can fill the meter pattern with a known tonality, dial in the correct compensation, and use AE lock to secure the correct exposure in camera. When photographing penguins in altering levels of illumination (partly cloudy conditions) I will set the meter pattern to Spot, dial in +2 compensation, meter off the penguins white chest, and depress the AE lock. If the light level changes I need only repoint the Spot pattern at the penguins white chest, and again press the AEL button to affix the new correct exposure. Quite often this approach is faster than adjusting the shutter-speed dial by hand in Manual mode, though the resulting exposure will be one and the same. FYI- the Canon 1DX and 5D3 now have a AEL hold function which maintains the affixed exposure in camera until you once again depress the AEL hold button, the camera goes into standby, or the camera is turned off. Moreover, you can after depressing the AEL hold button further adjust the degree of compensation as desired independently of the AEL held exposure.

Worth repeating… Metering Patterns determine exposure, Priority Modes alter exposure variables.

Best, Chas

[Grady Weed]

All the Metering Patterns and methods work, some are simply easier to implement than others in certain circumstances. What matters most is that a pattern or method affords the photographer a consistent means of determining exposure.

Metering Patterns determine exposure, Priority Modes alter exposure variables.

Manual Priority will not in and of itself make you a more competent photographer, but it can often help eliminate the problematic variables that lead to inconsistent exposures. Knowing how and when to use Pattens and Modes most effectively to best advantage is the key.

All Priority Modes be they Auto or Manual will yield the same exposure when used correctly. However, some methods are simply easier to implement than others in certain circumstances. To truly be a consistent photographer you need to understand the benefits and detriments of each pattern and method. Knowing how the pattern or reference value determines the recommended exposure, be it Eval/Matrix, Spot, Incident, or Reference Values is paramount to this understanding. The key to accurate metering lies in knowing how much to adjust the variables from the exposure recommendation provided by the in-camera pattern, reference value, or hand-held meter to render tonal values in the image as desired.

Maintaining proper exposure for subjects or scenes in unchanging light, when altering the field of view, camera orientation, and or background is where Manual Priority really shines.

Aperture (Av) Priorty works well in quite a few situations, especially when you can fill the meter pattern with a known tonality, dial in the correct compensation, and use AE lock to secure the correct exposure in camera. When photographing penguins in altering levels of illumination (partly cloudy conditions) I will set the meter pattern to Spot, dial in +2 compensation, meter off the penguins white chest, and depress the AE lock. If the light level changes I need only repoint the Spot pattern at the penguins white chest, and again press the AEL button to affix the new correct exposure. Quite often this approach is faster than adjusting the shutter-speed dial by hand in Manual mode, though the resulting exposure will be one and the same. FYI- the Canon 1DX and 5D3 now have a AEL hold function which maintains the affixed exposure in camera until you once again depress the AEL hold button, the camera goes into standby, or the camera is turned off. Moreover, you can after depressing the AEL hold button further adjust the degree of compensation as desired independently of the AEL held exposure.

Worth repeating… Metering Patterns determine exposure, Priority Modes alter exposure variables.

Best, Chas

I fear this is a debate that will never end, as many other threads will also appear from time to time, some more than others. I liked your response. A voice of reason and experience is always welcomed and will gather more respect when presented. Thanks for your valued input.

[John Chardine]

snip

Aperture (Av) Priorty works well in quite a few situations, especially when you can fill the meter pattern with a known tonality, dial in the correct compensation, and use AE lock to secure the correct exposure in camera. When photographing penguins in altering levels of illumination (partly cloudy conditions) I will set the meter pattern to Spot, dial in +2 compensation, meter off the penguins white chest, and depress the AE lock. If the light level changes I need only repoint the Spot pattern at the penguins white chest, and again press the AEL button to affix the new correct exposure. Quite often this approach is faster than adjusting the shutter-speed dial by hand in Manual mode, though the resulting exposure will be one and the same. FYI- the Canon 1DX and 5D3 now have a AEL hold function which maintains the affixed exposure in camera until you once again depress the AEL hold button, the camera goes into standby, or the camera is turned off. Moreover, you can after depressing the AEL hold button further adjust the degree of compensation as desired independently of the AEL held exposure.

Worth repeating… Metering Patterns determine exposure, Priority Modes alter exposure variables.

Best, Chas

Hi Chas- I (still) have the 1DIV. I like this method (in red above) and will try it but have a question. It sounds like all you have to do is press the AEL button to obtain the correct spot exposure but do you let go or do you have to hold the button down as you press the shutter button? You could let go if you could take Exposure off the shutter button but can't see how to do that.

[Charles Glatzer]

Hi Chas- I (still) have the 1DIV. I like this method (in red above) and will try it but have a question. It sounds like all you have to do is press the AEL button to obtain the correct spot exposure but do you let go or do you have to hold the button down as you press the shutter button? You could let go if you could take Exposure off the shutter button but can't see how to do that.

John,

See the link below for full description on using the AEL function with Mark IV. Read the entire article. Especially, on extending the AEL time on page 4.
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/autoexposure_ae_lock_article.shtml

Best, Chas

[John Chardine]

Thank you Chas. Read the entire thing and couldn't get the AEL time extension to work. Reset my custom functions and it worked. Then brought back each setting in turn and figured out that if you have C.FnIV:1 (Operation/others/Shutter button/AF-ON button) set to option 3 (for back-button focus) AEL time extension does not work. However, with option 2, which gives you back-button focus as well, AEL time extension works.

I have to say that as much as I like the Canon menu system, some of these Custom function menus are arcane at best.

[Charles Glatzer]

Thank you Chas. Read the entire thing and couldn't get the AEL time extension to work. Reset my custom functions and it worked. Then brought back each setting in turn and figured out that if you have C.FnIV:1 (Operation/others/Shutter button/AF-ON button) set to option 3 (for back-button focus) AEL time extension does not work. However, with option 2, which gives you back-button focus as well, AEL time extension works.

I have to say that as much as I like the Canon menu system, some of these Custom function menus are arcane at best.

John,

Always glad to help.
And, thanks for the time extension info, duly noted.

Happy New Year to you and yours,

Chas