Is there a fix?

[Gary Kinard]

My question is? If I shot this with a Nikon body. Say the D800 or a crop body 7100. Would I have the same mess I have here? Would this dark area be recoverable with out the blotches. I have learned to live with this some what. But am starting to get kinda tired of having to shoot my photos as far to the right as I can to get decent shots of birds in the jungle. Especially birds , well like this. If I am not perfect with exposure it is pretty much ruined.
http://www.birdsthatfart.com/uploads/3/0/9/6/3096547/7561149_orig.jpg

[arash_hazeghi]

I'm not sure what details you expect to see, if this is a 100% crop the bird was tiny in the frame, at this size, it would be a delete with any camera.

If you want to learn how to photograph in rain forest and produce amazing files, take a look at Doug Brown's or Greg Basco's photographs. it's the photographer not the camera.

[Gary Kinard]

That is not the question I asked. I asked if the blacks would be recoverable with the D800 or D7100.
I take it you do not have an answer? If you don't know just say so. Or maybe recommend someone that is technically versed in the area of photography.

[John Chardine]

Gary- In my opinion the format you made the image in is more important than the camera body. By format I mean raw versus jpeg. There is a tonne of information in a raw image and I am continually amazed how much you can extract from shadow and highlight areas, so long as you don't completely clip them. This is not the case with jpeg. I assume you shoot raw, so I would bring up the shadow areas in the image with the Exposure and Shadow sliders in Adobe Camera Raw or equivalent in your raw processor of choice. Once you bring up shadow areas in this way, you tend to see the noise more and the amount will depend on a variety of factors. Shooting at lower ISOs (if possible) and exposing to the right should reduce the amount of noise in the image. Also putting more pixels on subject is always a good idea. As to the relative merits of the D800 and the D7100, there may be differences in dynamic range abilities or noise in each but I honestly don't think that is a big issue in relation to your question.

[arash_hazeghi]

That is not the question I asked. I asked if the blacks would be recoverable with the D800 or D7100.
I take it you do not have an answer? If you don't know just say so. Or maybe recommend someone that is technically versed in the area of photography.



I did answer your question above and I referred you to some great examples. Did you even look at them ? what camera did they use ? The image you posted would be a delete, with ANY camera if the bird is so small in the frame. The fact that you can't get good detail in the blacks is the lack of your technique or image processing not gear, it would not improve if you got a new camera.

Also, please be a bit more careful with your responses on this forum, we are not dpreview.com thanks

[Daniel Cadieux]

Hi Greg, I looked at the embedded exif info and that is excessive noise for ISO 500 on a Canon 1D IV. I suspect the image was underexposed a lot (and cropped lots too) and brought back to correct exposure in post, thus the noise you have here. You would have had a better result using a higher ISO with correct exposure (or ETTR). I cannot speak for Nikon gear, but the camera you have is capable of amazing stuff...even my 7D performs very well, better than what you show here, when exposed properly.

[Gary Kinard]

Yes, I did under expose it. It was my fault. No problems there what so ever.
If I would of exposed it to the right then I could of used the photo. No doubt about it. The problem is, in the jungle it is very dark. And having to expose to the right all the time hurts allot. I have to either set my IOS higher or my shutter speed very low to compensate.
I've only shot with Canon for 2 years now and before that Pentax. Just browsing the internet I see references to this kind of thing and was wondering why it was happening with my Canon gear.
After Arash was so kind to offer his scientific opinion ( LOL) I Googled it. Which I should of done in the first place I guess. Very interesting reading, and a strong point for shooting with Nikon gear for sure. One of the links is. http://www.fredmiranda.com/5DIII-D800/index_controlled-tests.html

As to why it is such a problem with my IV I have no idea. But it seems Nikon has pretty much solved the problem and make it much easier to deal with. You know after reading that article I am thinking about trying a Nikon camera just for grins to see if it is as good as the article says. HUmmmm


Cheers, Gary

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos
www.birdsthatfart.com

[arash_hazeghi]

You don't need to expose anything to the right at all, but you do need to learn not to underexpose your photos, not to make huge crops and how to process the RAW files correctly. Your example above shows you overlooked all three factors.

Here is a low-light example with the 1D4 (ISO 3200). You can get great detail in whites and blacks if you pay attention to the three factors I mentioned above.


133949

1D4 600mm ISO 3200.

good luck with Nikon.

[arash_hazeghi]

image did not attach sorry

[Arthur Morris]

Gary, I have read most of this post and am a bit confused by lots of stuff above. Please post the full frame original image as it came out of camera with the exposure date, ISO, etc. Let us know how you figured the exposure, and let us know if the original capture was a JPEG or a RAW file? Then I will get back to you and the others :).

[Arthur Morris]

Out of curiosity, how does this look?

[Arthur Morris]

My question is? If I shot this with a Nikon body. Say the D800 or a crop body 7100. Would I have the same mess I have here? Would this dark area be recoverable with out the blotches. I have learned to live with this some what. But am starting to get kinda tired of having to shoot my photos as far to the right as I can to get decent shots of birds in the jungle. Especially birds , well like this. If I am not perfect with exposure it is pretty much ruined.

If you underexpose (especially with the higher ISOs) it will not make much difference what camera or system you use. I am unsure as to what you mean by "I am getting tired of having to shoot my photos as far to the right as I can to get decent shots of the birds in the jungle."

If you underexpose and then lighten the image you are by definition introducing noise.... Best it to use a higher ISO and expose properly to the right. I would still love to see the full frame un-cropped image as it came out of the camera.

[Jerry van Dijk]

Hi Gary, I think you got all the anwers you need above. I own the Nikon D7000, and have experienced that it is very sensitive to underexposure when it comes to shadow noise and details. At introduction, the D7000 was praised into heaven about its low light high iso performance, but I have been quite disappointed about its performance under difficult condtions. The D7001 may do a little better, but don't get your hopes up. No experience with the D800.

[Miguel Palaviccini]

Gary, I have a D800 and I have to say that if you don't get enough pixels on your subject and expose it properly, you aren't going to get a keeper. You may get more leeway at lower ISO, but I wouldn't switch systems because of it. If you have the original that you can post, that might help and I can even post a shot with the D800 that has a similar subject size and exposure if you'd like.

[Doug Brown]

For rain forest or jungle photography, I find that fill flash is essential. You need to start with a solid exposure, but fill flash will really help open up the darks. Have a look at my image in this thread (http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/111776-Golden-hooded-Tanager) for an example of what fill flash and a little shadow recovery can do for your blacks.

To get better advice, it would help if you could provide us with the unprocessed image along with an idea of how much of a crop we're looking at above.

[Don Lacy]

Gary the dynamic range advantage of the Sony sensor used in the D800 is at base or low ISO around 50 to 400 once you get to the higher ISO used in low light situations the advantage disappears. Doug is right the best way to open shadows in those conditions is the use of fill flash.

[David Kenny]

I am not a pro but I always thought a little flash can help pull out details in the darker areas. It has worked for me.

[Gary Kinard]

Sorry, been camping and hiking. ( no internet ) Thanks allot for all the comments. Seems I am wrong about Nikon. In regards to high ISO and underexposure.
Authur, as usual first class.
Doug, I have been using fill for years now. Been trying to get away from it. Beautiful photo by the way! And in the most part very successful so far. It is tough and I get frustrated some times, but I muchhhhh prefer the un-flashed look. A personal preference. I spent a year using fill only. And you can get very proficient at it. But, I was never satisfied, now with the new 300 II and 500 II it is possible for me to move away from fill flash.

A quick plug for Canon, these new lenses? (wow) what else can you say. It has let me move to a different level. Just simply amazing IMO. I complained in frustration on my blog! I will delete it now. Very good info here.

Great group of guys and gals here for the most part. Makes me feel much better. And got me over this hump. I get frustrated sometimes! And rant?

Cheers Gary

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos
www.birdsthatfart.com

[Gary Kinard]

One last thing, my last post on this thread anyway. I was shooting with a seasoned pro from Central and South America and another friend here in Thailand. We set our blinds for a shoot of a Black and Red broadbill. He asked me what I was doing when I set my flash and beamer up? I said I always use it on this kind of shoot. End of a long story he said he was sucked into it years back. But, now never used it. He said just use the light to get the shot. Your photography will improve 100%. Not for everyone it seems! But it has helped my low light shooting 100%. I still use it some but very rarely now. I have made every mistake imaginable with fill. Once I starting getting proficient with it, I dropped it for the most part.

IMO, natural light is a killer. Much better than fill.

Cheers, Gary

www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos (http://www.flickr.com/photos/avianphotos)
www.birdsthatfart.com (http://www.birdsthatfart.com)