Comment count versus views count....

[Grady Weed]

Hello everyone. My purpose here is to open a dialogue on the very obvious. Quite a few post's have a very low comment count when compared to the view's count. I don't want to start a war of words or open old wounds here. I just don't understand why so many will view a thread but not leave a comment, even a brief one. I recently posted a thread about a site closing. Only 3 responded. I am very disturbed about it. Perhaps some are not comfortable leaving compliments, do not know how to express themselves, or maybe had some other reasons. A fair number of posts in other forums have similar low comments when compared to views. I know this is an ongoing issue and probably will be as long as there are web sites. But.....we owe it to those who paved the way for us! It is a matter of respect to acknowledge what others pass down to us in the arts. You lose a part of yourself when you show a lack of respect, even when you do not like or agree with someone. I think most here are a very professional type, have great talent, and show themselves to be wiling to learn. But.....a low comment on many posts show us up as a grab and go type. We all need to step up to the plate and be a bit more courteous by leaving a small comment on the post we view. If we don't, this site we all love to visit just might go the way of others before it. And that would be a huge loss!

[Cheryl Slechta]

Grady, thanks for sharing your thoughts and I count myself as one of the ones who viewed your post and didn't comment and I apologize. I didn't comment because I wasn't familiar with the site and didn't feel like I had the knowledge to comment. But that is no excuse - I could have said that I thought it was unfortunate and that I was sorry I missed experiencing the site and compliment the owner on her role in this ongoing learning process of photography. I agree with you wholeheartedly that it would be wonderful if more people took the time to leave a comment after viewing a post. It's a busy world and I think sometimes we unwittingly try to grab as much "goody" as we can without giving a little more of ourselves. I will certainly try to do my part to correct that shortcoming.:S3:

[dankearl]

It is getting worse all the time and is having an effect on postings here in my opinion.
A number of people who post photo's never bother to comment on anyone else.
I don't know what the site can do, but if I ran it, they would not be allowed to post here.
It is pretty clear when you sign up here, that critiquing others is part of joining the website.
Many have forgotten that or don't want to bother and are still posting and displaying their work.
The same 10 people seem to comment and critique. This is causing some long time photographers who post here
to not bother any more as there is just not enough feedback.

[Hazel Grant]

There is a suggested rule that a member comments on at least 3 photos for each post placed. There are some of the forums I just don't bother with because i know I'll get no feedback. This is a communication opportunity for all! Please particiapate....and add something other than "nice work.' Give a reason.

[Rachel Hollander]

Grady - I also viewed your post and did not comment because I knew nothing about the site or the person mentioned. I agree, and it has been discussed before with no clear solution, that people who post and want comments but do not comment on others threads is a problem. I also think the problem is augmented by people who post their own image but then come back many hours or days later to post comments on other people's threads. This gives the impression of it being ok to post and not comment. I believe that if people comment on others' threads either contemporaneously with or before posting their own image it encourages others to comment and also helps to ensure that each image receives at least a few comments.

BTW Hazel, the suggestion is that people comment on 5 images (not 3) each time they post an image.

[Grady Weed]

Let me illustrate my point here. When you attend a gathering of close friends, relatives, a club function, your expected to contribute to the event as a whole. If you just simply showed up, ate the food, sat in the corner afterward, then made that your practice every time you went to that type of function, you might not be invited back. In fact you might even be shown the door if you exhibited rude behavior. Switch to the internet. Many have it the practice to cruise and peruse the internet, grabbing images for personal use, ranting on blog sites, saying things on web sites they would never say in person. And then turn around and want others to give free hard earned expertise to further their artful skills, but not contribute to others once they have want it is they wanted, knowledge. The internet seems to have spawned very brave people with a great deal of anonymity. They feel bolder with each "grab and go". Almost to the point they think they are entitled to get everything for free. That is the chief reason many web sites close down after some years. Some only asked for name and a few small details to register, fees to support the sites were optional. The owners group and volunteer administrators were burning the candles at both ends and burned themselves out. It takes a huge effort to make a site like this hum along. Without each and everyone of us giving what we can, this site too will pass along quietly into the night. That means if we view a post, then we should leave a small and at least kind remark. This post only 4 comments by others, given it's title.....well you draw your own conclusions.

[Daniel Cadieux]

That is something all forums suffer from, I do not think it is something that will change no matter what. Here we encourage a certain number of comments for each picture post, but to enforce that is impossible. We can only set reminders (either publibly, or privately for some others) and try to lead by example. Most of the members that receive the most comments and feedback are also the ones that participate the most...so you get back what you give. Many of the post-and-go posters do not receive much feed back and eventually fade away. Many are just very busy but have a strong interest in nature photography so they may pass by only to browse the images and move on, others do not feel qualified to offer critiques (but we do not agree with that...everyone is qualified!!).

Compared to the other forums out there I do feel we have the strongest "critique" community with the most helpful advice for everyone...and that is mainly because of our goal and work to be just that...an active community of like-minded (but certainly multi-opiniated, in a good way) people giving advice and feedback on how to improve our images. And most not hiding behind an alias!:S3:

Thanks for bringing the topic back up Grady, a good reminder is always a good thing....

[Tom Graham]

Well, not enough comments. Much better than some sites where comments are all the same - awesome, you nailed it, beautiful colors, stunning, super, etc
Again, I do wish for a forum on the art of photography. Art's topic on "head angle" was/is great. And Roger's topic on "work-on-this-image" was also most fun and instructive.

Me, I get criticized for having too many comments and not enough image posts !! :S3:
(If people want to see my image posts, about 24, they can all be found here. Somehow? :S3: )
In fact I've had two members request that I do NOT comment on their images. (Which I honor). I suppose because I tend to see images "differently"?
Peace, love, God be with you :wave:
Tom
ps - I'm thinking about posting my biannual image!!

[Don Railton]

How about a system where you cannot post another image unless you earn sufficient 'credits' which achieved by commenting on other images... Ie you get to post one image, but you cannot post another until you have commented on 5 other posts.. Is this too restrictive?

[Grady Weed]

Thank you to those who gave their thoughts and expressed themselves here. I appreciate your enthusiastic feedback. And your untiring support to BPN Daniel is not un-noticed. If only more like you participated. I consider this thread closed from my perspective. I just wanted to bring up what I felt was a very important matter, giving some long time over due acknowledgement to a highly talented person who got most of us here started in the "posting & hosting our images", for whatever reasons, world.

[Ian Cassell]

I apologize that I also have been very guilty here. I often read the site at work and not in a position to critically evaluate an image (time and quality of display), but that really is not a good excuse. I should (and will attempt to) comment more frequently, even if only a short one-liner.

Of particular concern to me is the lack of constructive criticism or acknowledgment that is on the ETL board. It has skidded to a slow crawl and the newbies need the comments, critiques, and encouragement often more than the pros or experienced folk. It has clearly been reflected in the small number of contributions to that board compared to when I began here. It can be very discouraging to see a high view-count with no comments whatsoever. If I have an image that I really need help with, I tend to post it now on Avian instead, since I can usually count on at least one coment. Shifting contributions to one of the more advanced fourums, such as Avian, doesn't always work either. One can often predict who will get many comments (the older 'regulars') compared with those who haven't been around as long.

[jack williamson]

Nine responses out of 307 views to this thread. Sad! I would say this- if you don't critique at least five other images after posting one of your own, you should be ashamed. Also I completely agree with Ian about the ETL forum, some of the more experienced members should occasionally visit and critique there- ( me included). I vow and challenge everyone to do this- Critique at least one image each time you visit this site. This site has been invaluable to me, if I am a better photographer than my first post here it is because of the feedback I have received. This place is a great resource and I thank the people who do critique regularly.

Jack

[Ian Cassell]

Maybe 5 is too many? I don't think so, but even 3 or 4 would be great. If we're going to set a minimum, I suggest starting with 3 and see what happens.

I just looked back. There have been only 3 posts on ETL since my last post on 7/28. When I started on BPN, there would be several posts there every day. My guess is that people aren't posting because they get no critique. I am going to improve my participation and I hope others do the same.

[Hazel Grant]

BTW Hazel, the suggestion is that people comment on 5 images (not 3) each time they post an image.[/QUOTE]

I stand corrected and will "up" the comments

[Jim Michael]

When I do drop by I'll comment on something I really like or make a suggestion where I think it might be helpful, but I'm not inclined to make gratuitous comments.

And note: My participation here dropped off with the failure of the owners of the site to rectify the issue they have with the subscription system and never being given the courtesy of a reply to my email regarding the matter.

[Tom Graham]

"failure of the owners of the site to rectify the issue they have with the subscription system and never being given the courtesy of a reply to my email regarding the matter."
I also received a subscription notice that makes little sense. I also sent email to BPN staff about it and have received no reply. Maybe BPN staff has to have at least 5 such questions before they will respond . :t3

Sorry for going off topic.

Tom

[Daniel Cadieux]

Guys, I know it does not change the fact you did not get a direct reply, but here is a thread that deals with this issue:

http://www.birdphotographers.net/forums/showthread.php/109545-Double-Billing-Two-Years-Running-and-No-Resolution

Hope it helps.

[Grady Weed]

All I ask is that any who chose to comment here to please stay on topic.

[Michael Gerald-Yamasaki]

Grady, Greetings. I think that perhaps the views to comments metric you are using is prone to misinterpretation. I might look at some thread a number of times before the comment coalesces in my mind and I have the time to type it out. If enough people do this the views count can become misleading. I'm guessing that the views count is not a unique individual count as much as it is a count the page is clicked count. Cheers, -Michael-

[Daniel Cadieux]

Hey all, a bit of a cleanup was needed here (off topic and replies pertaining to that). Please stay on topic and keep a polite/respectful/BPN rule abiding discussion pretty please...:c3:

[PhilCook]

That is something all forums suffer from, I do not think it is something that will change no matter what. Here we encourage a certain number of comments for each picture post, but to enforce that is impossible. We can only set reminders (either publibly, or privately for some others) and try to lead by example. Most of the members that receive the most comments and feedback are also the ones that participate the most...so you get back what you give. Many of the post-and-go posters do not receive much feed back and eventually fade away. Many are just very busy but have a strong interest in nature photography so they may pass by only to browse the images and move on, others do not feel qualified to offer critiques (but we do not agree with that...everyone is qualified!!).

Compared to the other forums out there I do feel we have the strongest "critique" community with the most helpful advice for everyone...and that is mainly because of our goal and work to be just that...an active community of like-minded (but certainly multi-opiniated, in a good way) people giving advice and feedback on how to improve our images. And most not hiding behind an alias!:S3:

Thanks for bringing the topic back up Grady, a good reminder is always a good thing....


Daniel has summed it up quite well enough for the most part.

So, I was just passing through and seen this age old complaint that happens with every forum...sighhhh. If I had a dollar for every time I have read this type of discussion I'd buy an 800mm lens lol lol

I think my time on here was spent contributing and commenting on a lot more than 5 posts to my one, and I believe with a good degree of C&C and comradery as a result of dedication. It's often confusing about how to comment on posts and I have always tried not to indulge too much in the " that's a nice picture " comment....as is the case with a good percentage of folk here. On one hand comprehensive C&C is ideal, but after a few others have made the same C&C comments it often becomes just as repetitive as the "nice picture " comment, and then sometimes one wonders why bother. This is often when the "nice picture" comment is used simply to acknolwledge another persons post = comradery if you like. It seems pointless repeating stereo-typed C&C at times ...dammed if you do...dammed if you dont ???

Overall I found there was a good balance of comment style on here, and some nice folks. I did find there was some good info available from numerous others, and most people are very polite in the way advice and help it is handed out. I confess however, I often found there was quite a lot of people seemingly going out of the way to find often miniscule percieved faults, myself included just to avoid the bogey " nice picture " style comment.

Overall, I think this forum worked OK, you do get back what you put in, and I think it is very true to say people who dont post much eventually get very little back in the way of responses. Posting on multiple forums seems to have the effect of less comments on just one site as well = spreading ones time/posts around.

I would like to point out this percieved problem of lack of comments is not the main reason I dont post on this forum anymore...there's another factor which need not be openly posted.

[dankearl]

Phil,
Welcome back and start posting your unique Aussie photo's again.
Looking forward to it.

Dan

[James Shadle]

This is always an interesting subject.
If we encouraged "great shot" comments rather than honest critiques there would be more comments on images submitted for critiques.

Once a thorough critique is submitted what else is there to say?
Perhaps a simple "ditto" so and so's comment would do. Or "thanks for sharing", because the image creator is not the only one who benefits from a critique.

[John Chardine]

I am very late here and read the thread early on but did not comment then (!).

I think it is an unrealistic to expect most/all people who view a thread to comment on it, so there's little point lamenting the fact that only a proportion of viewers actually do comment. This is exactly what you would expect and there's nothing wrong with it. Nine responses out of 307 reviews is not "sad" Jack. Now we are at 708 views and 22 responses (3%), which to my mind indicates great interest in the subject rather than apathy. There are many reasons why people who view a thread do not leave a comment and most cannot be construed as negative in any way. By the way, I would make a distinction between critique forums and information/discussion forums. I am totally in favour of BPN's rule of thumb that for every image you post for critique, you should "give back" comments on five others. However, in threads which are points of interest or information like the one Grady mentions in the OP, the subject line make catch many people's eyes (like it did mine), but like me, they may not have known the site or the person and would have nothing of merit to contribute by way of a comment. Perhaps we should put more value on the number of views an information thread receives rather than the number of comments.

This has been put several different ways above but on an educational site like BPN, 3 incisive critiques of an image is infinitely more valuable than 50 vacuous ones. Quality is much more important than quantity. BPN is not about popularity, it's all about building a web community of sharing folks dedicated to nature photography education.

[Grady Weed]

Phil Cook and John Chardine have made some good points. I appreciate the many here who are viewing but not commenting. Perhaps they are interested in the topic but do not feel they have something of value to contribute. Everybody has something valuable to give. And BPN encourages that! And I thank James and Artie for their contributions here and to Debbie's thread too. The driving force behind my posting this thread was the lack of thank you and farewell to the our dear friend who closed her site down due to most just viewing images and posting with little participation. A hosting site is a labor of love, you get what you put into it. Many of us came from there, so I expected more to say thanks and farewell. I do not expect everyone to agree with my sentiments or views. I also don't think all 700 and something needed to leave a comment here or on the other thread. You will never get 100% participation. But no effort should pass quietly into the night without our acknowledgement. And finally...to those who had the courage to express themselves politely and disagree with me...thank you for doing so. Not everyone can do that.

[Grady Weed]

By the way, I would make a distinction between critique forums and information/discussion forums. I am totally in favour of BPN's rule of thumb that for every image you post for critique, you should "give back" comments on five others. However, in threads which are points of interest or information like the one Grady mentions in the OP, the subject line make catch many people's eyes (like it did mine), but like me, they may not have known the site or the person and would have nothing of merit to contribute by way of a comment. Perhaps we should put more value on the number of views an information thread receives rather than the number of comments.

This has been put several different ways above but on an educational site like BPN, 3 incisive critiques of an image is infinitely more valuable than 50 vacuous ones. Quality is much more important than quantity. BPN is not about popularity, it's all about building a web community of sharing folks dedicated to nature photography education. Very good point John TFS.

[Grady Weed]

It's often confusing about how to comment on posts and I have always tried not to indulge too much in the " that's a nice picture " comment....as is the case with a good percentage of folk here. On one hand comprehensive C&C is ideal, but after a few others have made the same C&C comments it often becomes just as repetitive as the "nice picture " comment, and then sometimes one wonders why bother...Overall I found there was a good balance of comment style on here, and some nice folks. I did find there was some good info available from numerous others, and most people are very polite in the way advice and help it is handed out. I confess however, I often found there was quite a lot of people seemingly going out of the way to find often miniscule percieved faults, myself included just to avoid the bogey " nice picture " style comment.

Overall, I think this forum worked OK, you do get back what you put in, and I think it is very true to say people who dont post much eventually get very little back in the way of responses. Posting on multiple forums seems to have the effect of less comments on just one site as well = spreading ones time/posts around.. TFS your thoughts. Very well put.

[Kerry Perkins]

I would like to share something that I learned many years ago. I have been involved in several international organizations in my life, and by that I mean participatory groups that have officers and many members. I attended a seminar on group dynamics because I was frustrated at the lack of participation in one of the groups, a global motorcycle club. What I learned from that (which seems to be supported by John's numbers above) is that, in every such organization there is only a 2-3% rate of active participation on the part of the members. Most people simply want to belong to something, for whatever personal reasons, and very few actually roll up their sleeves and participate. I was amazed at how difficult it was to get people in Southern California to suit up and go for a ride on the weekend! I put together a mailing list of people who lived in my area and sent out emails. I actually had people reply and tell me to take them off the mailing list because they weren't interested! So why did they even belong to the group (a sport-touring motorcycle club), which cost twice as much in membership fees as BPN? As for our membership, I think most people just want to look at the pretty pictures and not commit to a comment. I don't like that any more than the rest of us, but it's just the way it is. I don't think we can "legislate" better participation without stepping on the toes of those who support the site with their membership dollars but not with their thoughts. I know this is a hot button for some and it has been discussed here many times, but I do believe that we are simply at the mercy of human nature. None of us wants this site to turn into a love fest like Flickr, where every shot is "awesome dude" or the like. The best we can do is make gentle reminders about commenting versus posting and hope for the best. I am speaking strictly for myself here... I have my own frustrations with BPN from time to time (I know, you're shocked!) but every time I get frustrated I just go take a look around and come back to the fact that we are part of the best nature photography site on the net.

[Grady Weed]

I agree with Kerry about the % rate of volunteers. I was secretary for my local snowmobile club for 7 years running, very few could be counted on to show up for the monthly meetings or to volunteer to clear trails they would all ride on for free no less. And they all would ride your butt if they came upon the groomer, like you were holding them up, some would give me the finger etc. We had a dozen who could be counted on out of 150. I also called each one every year to remind them to join, only $20 to do so. I mailed them a sign up form, sent it via e-mail and called them 2 or 3 times per season to let them know about local fund raisers. We had a budget of only $7,000 to groom just under 80 miles of trails. We needed every members time and whatever money they could give us. I have suffered some very rude people giving my time for free so others could ride easier. It was a eye opener. I also volunteer 40 hours per month, at least, for a world wide organization. I give public talks in front of 1-200 people several times a month and have given them in front of 4-6 thousand 6 times. I managed a multi-million dollar call center for 4 years and was in the top 1% in sales for over 8 years as a outbound sales rep for infomercials and spot radio ads. So...I am used to getting counseled, giving it, and to listen to and accept differing views and opinions. I also am not shy, as you can tell, but I also have learned when to listen, which is should be more then speaking. I've seen good people burn themselves out giving their all for a company that did not care if you lived or died, so long as you produced. As Kerry said, you learn real quick the hard way who will back you up and who will give you the finger when the chips are down, who you can count on to volunteer and who is there to just take and be seen. And yes it is usually just 2-5 % who give and you can count on in a pinch. Look at the special forces for example. Not everybody makes the cut. I do believe however we here at BPN are better than most. If you did not comment on this thread or the other one, no problem. Maybe re-think your participation levels and see if there is room for improvement. Most here are polite, give good critiques, want to learn, share knowledge and contribute in many other ways. Our moderators do so and do not get paid. Yes we have some issues, but who does not. I just want to remind all to try harder if you can to contribute to the comments. Please also read the OP all the way through before commenting, think before you do and be poli te if you do not agree. Thank you James, Daniel, Steve Kaluski and the others who responded. I hope this thread has made a difference in a positive way.

[Sandy Witvoet]

Hi Grady, I've been following this thread since it started...hope I'm not out of line as a real "newbie". I would first like to thank the owners and mods of this site for their wonderful work to make BPN the best on the net. I had "lurked" for awhile, studied images and tutorials.... I joined as a "real" member to try to pay back just a small portion of what I have gleaned here. I own a regional "Bird/nature" forum.... and surely feel the same pain....lotsa views... but few comments. I have noticed that the images here in Avian, that aren't totally WOWSA! receive few comments, likely because folks may be hesitant to critique... or maybe just like to look and learn.
Good to see ETL getting a few more comments.... Hey... would love to post there, but if there is not much feedback...why? I think that the ETL forum is the first place our real "pro's" should visit and hopefully share. If I ever get the "nerve" to post an image, I would be super happy to get a critique....heck, that's why it's called Eager To Learn!
Thanks, BPN for an incredible Site.

[John Chardine]

Hi Sandy- I REALLY encourage you to post on ETL!!!! We do pretty well with our comment counts but the content of the comments is generally excellent as well, IMO. OK here's a target- could you post an image by the end of the week?!!!!!

[Grady Weed]

Hi Grady, I've been following this thread since it started...hope I'm not out of line as a real "newbie". I would first like to thank the owners and mods of this site for their wonderful work to make BPN the best on the net. I had "lurked" for awhile, studied images and tutorials.... I joined as a "real" member to try to pay back just a small portion of what I have gleaned here. I own a regional "Bird/nature" forum.... and surely feel the same pain....lotsa views... but few comments. I have noticed that the images here in Avian, that aren't totally WOWSA! receive few comments, likely because folks may be hesitant to critique... or maybe just like to look and learn.
Good to see ETL getting a few more comments.... Hey... would love to post there, but if there is not much feedback...why? I think that the ETL forum is the first place our real "pro's" should visit and hopefully share. If I ever get the "nerve" to post an image, I would be super happy to get a critique....heck, that's why it's called Eager To Learn!
Thanks, BPN for an incredible Site. Thank you for following the thread and for the courage to respond! And please by all means post in ETL! BPN is the best site going bar none. Thanks to members like you who want to learn. Please feel free to express yourself when you can on any image. And we will try to do the same for you.

[Sandy Witvoet]

Wow.... Thanks!!!
EEEK!!!! A Challenge! I'll give 'er a go! Just shot my first RAW a week or so ago... only working with a 60d, 300 F4 and 1.4 tc ... still working at PP.... well, you will likely see a Loon or a GBH on ETL...stay tuned...I learned a LONG time ago that "negative" (whatever THAT is) = learning! Thank you so much for acknowledging my post and (James) for your PM!

[Bruce Spell]

Just came across this thread (I must do better looking into some of the other parts of BPN aside from the Critique forums) but felt I should express my thoughts as a relative newcomer to this community. My own experiences seem to parallel what others have mentioned - slow participation in ETL and possibly overlooked in Avian. I don't think it's a deliberate thing but I do feel some of the "established" members and pros only provide critique to others of the same standing. Fortunately, there are some who do share their time and critique with all that are willing to take it.

I think the other area that I've noticed is that as a newcomer when I do comment on others' posts it appears to be overlooked by some members. Maybe this is just the natural course of having to build up forum credentials, lol.

Anyway, I will continue to participate as best I can. I will also make it a personal goal to help with the ETL forum contributions since I think that's probably where I belong anyway.

[Evan Cain]

People will always discuss a subject that they are comfortable with, or they can relate to in some way. This applies to the forums, as well as life. Subliminally, if someone doesn't enjoy an image, or doesn't feel a connection, they aren't as likely to respond to it.

Do you enjoy talking about subjects that make you uncomfortable? For me it is politics, since I do not enjoy the negative emotions that often fly when intense discussions and personal opinions escalate. As far as this relating to the responses towards photographs here on BPN, I think the main reason is what James Shadle pointed out in his earlier post.

[dankearl]

Um.....
After following this thread and commenting a while back, I am afraid that people don't get it.
The problem is not that people are "uncomfortable", and it may be just simple apathy, but the
comments are way down and this is not a good sign.
James is the owner and it is his site, but to state that the lack of comments is because this site does not want
"Great photo" type comments is just wrong. If that is the case, maybe that is why comments and posts are down.
Most of us are not professionals, we do this as a hobby. If we take the time to post and comment on others,
we expect to get a few replies, maybe a few "nice photo" responses.
Way too many, just post and don't comment at all. I don't think they just don't have anything to say, they just
don't care.
Posting in Landscape is a total waste of time, no comments at all. The site should probably just eliminate that forum.
Excellent photo's in Avian are getting just a few responses. If you feel "uncomfortable" commenting, you won't
have to worry, you may not have this site to post on at all.

[Sandy Witvoet]

Hi Sandy- I REALLY encourage you to post on ETL!!!! We do pretty well with our comment counts but the content of the comments is generally excellent as well, IMO. OK here's a target- could you post an image by the end of the week?!!!!!
Finally got the nerve to post! In ETL... "Regal Loon".... YIKES.... Would love if you, Grady and others would like to comment on my image..... BTW.... Not looking for Kudos ( HECK, I'm a Neophyte!) ALL feed back is good feedback!