White Tailed Kite Courtship Ritual - Need Help with Manual Exposure for White Birds

[Loi Nguyen]

I posted a highly cropped pic of a breeding pair of white tailed kite performing the mid-air exchange of food as part of the courtship ritual. Here is a full frame picture of the pair after the food exchange was accomplished and the female took the prize back to the tree.

I think i under-exposed this image to about 1 EV and would appreciate your comments how to properly set manual exposure for white birds like these.

1DX
500f4 II + 2X III
1/4000
f8
ISO-400
Tripod

Thank you in advance

Loi

[shane shacaluga]

Hi Loi,

I am on the learning curve myself so will let the pro's respond. But for me, I guess my first question would be why you chose the setting in the first place:

1/4000
f8
ISO-400

I guess f8 is because of the 2x TC but 1/4000 and ISO 400 at that f8 seems a setting for very bright sunlight

[Loi Nguyen]

Hi Loi,

I am on the learning curve myself so will let the pro's respond. But for me, I guess my first question would be why you chose the setting in the first place:

1/4000
f8
ISO-400

I guess f8 is because of the 2x TC but 1/4000 and ISO 400 at that f8 seems a setting for very bright sunlight

hi Shane, normally I would shoot at 1/3200, f8, 800 for mid tone subject. For whites, I find the whites keep getting blown. I experimented with reducing the exposure and had shots of the same birds on the perch at 1/3200, f8, 400 and although the overall image was underexposed, the whites looked Ok.

so I experimented some more going 1/4000 and that was the last setting on the camera. then all of the sudden these two birds appeared and did their famous food exchange in mid air, so I shot at the last setting.

Thanks

Loi

[shane shacaluga]

By normally you mean on that day, or that is your setting for mid tone subjects at any time? The light will vary a lot so you need to adjust your settings depending on the available light on your subject.

When you say the whites look ok, in camera or when you view it at home?

I will let the experts give their opinions as I am only just learning myself.

[nick clayton]

A beautiful behavior image Loi with the Kite shown in their surroundings.

[Dan Brown]

If you don't want to blow the whites, you need to expose accordingly. Minus 2 stops at least. Then of course, you will be dark under the wings if you are shooting up at the kites. So, you could just open the darks in post with ACR or whatever and then reduce the noise that might result. That is what I did for these shots - http://naturestoc.smugmug.com/Birds/White-tailed-Kite-Mather-Park/7745599_TTTDWg and these -http://naturestoc.smugmug.com/Birds/Raptors/4684439_QDWc3s Kites top lit is a very tough, extreme contrast situation! I also had some good success shooting in auto iso with +1 EC dialed in. It seemed that the sky set an exposure that was ok for all the whites except the very brightest while opening up the shadows due to the +1. This may not be a good option for you with the canon body, as it is kinda complicated to use EC in auto iso from what I understand?

[Arthur Morris]

With all due respect the advise to use -2 stops at least without regard to the lighting conditions or the size of the subject in the frame is terrible advice at best. How's this for simplicity: adjust your shutter speed, aperture, and ISO so that you have data halfway into the fifth (rightmost) histogram box. That advice is never wrong. Follow it and you will have a very good to excellent exposure 100% of the time.... As I have been saying on the blog, it ain't rocket science.

[Dan Brown]

With all due respect the advise to use -2 stops at least without regard to the lighting conditions or the size of the subject in the frame is terrible advice at best. How's this for simplicity: adjust your shutter speed, aperture, and ISO so that you have data halfway into the fifth (rightmost) histogram box. That advice is never wrong. Follow it and you will have a very good to excellent exposure 100% of the time.... As I have been saying on the blog, it ain't rocket science.Minus 2 stops at least won't preserve the whites? It sure has work for me. Of course, you do need to check histogram to come up with that but -2 from a neutral exposure should get you in the ballpark and I really can't see why that would be considered terrible advice? WOW I guess I really don't get this photography stuff?

[Arthur Morris]

Dan,If someone photographs this species at -2 stops on a cloudy day the image will be five stops underexposed. So yes, if you always photograph white birds in flight at -2 stops you are right: you will never burn the whites. But you will only rarely create a properly exposed image..... And btw, if you have the correct exposure for a neutral you should use 1 stop less exposure for a white subject....

[Loi Nguyen]

Dan,If someone photographs this species at -2 stops on a cloudy day the image will be five stops underexposed. So yes, if you always photograph white birds in flight at -2 stops you are right: you will never burn the whites. But you will only rarely create a properly exposed image..... And btw, if you have the correct exposure for a neutral you should use 1 stop less exposure for a white subject....

Artie, I used about 1 1/3 EV less than neutral for this shot. I metered off the sky just above the white cloud and the meter said 1/3200, f8, ISO-800, which is the sunny 16 rule. So I decided to go with 1/3200, f8, ISO-400 for whites on a bird near the nest and it looked good. Then I experimented by reducing it by 1/3 EV (1/4000) further. I was at this setting when the actions happened. The out of the box image looked pretty dark perhaps due to the small size of the birds in the frame, which I did not take into account.

[nrohrbacker]

This is what I do. If you are shooting birds with white feathers! And they are not around, to test shoot, then shoot something white in the direction your are shooting and keep upping the exposuring till the blinkies show, then back off a 1/3. I think that is what Artie is saying, stated a bit differently, but as he says, it ain't rocket science. This is all in manual mode of course.

[Loi Nguyen]

Thank you all who took interest in my little image problem. I think the issue here is the birds weren't quite front lid. I shot upward, so most of what I and the camera saw was not well lid by the sun. In the test case I did before, the birds were on top of the tree and about the same level as I. That would explain the big differences between the two cases. I will post a pic of the same bird on top of a tree later tonight. Loi

[Arthur Morris]

This is what I do. If you are shooting birds with white feathers! And they are not around, to test shoot, then shoot something white in the direction your are shooting and keep upping the exposuring till the blinkies show, then back off a 1/3. I think that is what Artie is saying, stated a bit differently, but as he says, it ain't rocket science. This is all in manual mode of course.

That's what I am saying and that's what I am doing. By studying and then exposure theory you have a far better idea of here to start. Recommended: study exposure theory in ABP (https://store.birdsasart.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=16) and "Exposure Simplified" in ABP II (https://store.birdsasart.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=19). Buy both and save $10 here (https://store.birdsasart.com/shop/item.aspx?itemid=84). You will learn why my as-framed exposure compensations for birds with white on them range from +3 stops (against a white sky on a cloudy day) to -2 stops or more (for a small in the frame brilliant white bird against dark blue water or black mud).... By studying and learning you can actually learn the principles and learn to get it right most of the time on you first attempt.

[Arthur Morris]

Thank you all who took interest in my little image problem. I think the issue here is the birds weren't quite front lid. I shot upward, so most of what I and the camera saw was not well lid by the sun. In the test case I did before, the birds were on top of the tree and about the same level as I. That would explain the big differences between the two cases. I will post a pic of the same bird on top of a tree later tonight. Loi

Loi, Nothing matters but getting at least some data in the fifth (rightmost) histogram without having more than a few blinkies.... See also my advice in Pane #13.