1D IV VS 7D

[Humberto Ramos]

A friend of mine send me a comparison he found on the web between the 1D IV and 7D, and was surprising with the results....

I had a 7D and changed for the 1D IV, and my keeping rate and overall image quality has increased when change to the 1D IV, in this comparison the results are opposite to my results...

Does anyone feels the same?

http://grantatkinsonphotography.blogspot.pt/2012/02/image-quality-comparison-canon-1dmk4.html

[David Stephens]

Shooting a static subject while using a tripod has no correlation to your keeper rate shooting flying birds in AI Servo mode. Shooting BIF with the 7D will yield substantially higher OOF shots than taking the same shots with the 1D MkIV, 5D MkIII or 1DX, to name a few.

[arash_hazeghi]

Hey Humberto,

These topics are old now and there are hundreds of internet analysis like the one you found. IMO they don not represent field photography. General avian photography is not only one scenario. Resolution is only one factor but there are many other factors that affect image quality. The 7D sensor is relatively poor when it comes to low light performance, the noise floor is high and the lack of DR combined with banding results in noisy darks and overall murky-looking images that lack fine detail despite having more pixels, it is obsolete sensor technology. When I was photographing eagles with Jim early this month in low light conditions in Alaska, I would probably pack and go home if I had to work with a 7D.

Nikon has been able to achieve almost perfect scaling with the D800 increasing resolution while lowering read noise and improving overall IQ, however Canon has been unable to do so. I hope that Canon can make move on to a modern process providing us with a sensor that has great resolution and noise performance, but all the evidence so far indicate they are stuck in technology that is a decade old now-I hope I am wrong!

[Corey Hayes]

the next 7D mk2 could be awesome if the rumored specs are true

[arash_hazeghi]

I don't think there will be a 7D replacement. The market for none-full frame premium SLRs is very small. Nikon has discontinued D300 series and I think Canon has given up on this venue as well. W/O major sensor improvement Canon will not be able to offer a camera that is better than the current 7D any way.

Now it's a good time to invest in lenses :)

[Corey Hayes]

Yeah its coming out or at least canon is talking about it in Early 2013 http://www.canonrumors.com/

Canon is also coming out with new Crop frame lenses.

[arash_hazeghi]

Yeah its coming out or at least canon is talking about it in Early 2013 http://www.canonrumors.com/

Canon is also coming out with new Crop frame lenses.

Canon rumors is not Canon. People who actually might know about these things are obliged by various NDA's and won't say a word.

If you look at Canon rumors they have been wrong 99% of the time in their predictions :w3

I am sure they will continue making crop sensors but limited to those Rebel models and cheap plastic EF-S lenses.

any ways, time will tell. For now, it's best to use what is at hand and make the best out of it :)

[Gary Kinard]

Even if there sensor technology has not scaled. I think you will see a new 7Dll. It didn't stop Canon from upgrading the 5Dll to the 5Dlll.
Better AF, frames/sec. Video. Many are picking the 5Dlll over the D800. I am not a camera junkie. I only shoot birds.
So the few improvements like these will be well received IF it does come about.
They even upgraded the astronomy camera. LOL

[Corey Hayes]

Its pretty obvious that canon is coming out with a new 7D even if the specs reported are not 100% correct. You would not be hearing so much about it if it was not happening.

I fully believe it will be better then the 1Dmk iv not only when it comes to AF but also noise performance, having tested a 1d mkiv I found it to be on par with my Pentax k5 that uses the 16mp Sony sensor in terms of DR and noise. This is not a hit on the mkiv its just that its an old design dating back 4+ years you caint be the best for ever.


If you think about it Canon has a camera geared towards every segment.

1DX - Fast/low light shooter good all around
5Dmk3 - wedding
7D mk2 - sports/ wildlife
6D- General Full frame
60da - astronomy

[arash_hazeghi]

Corey,

There is a lot of talk on the internet, unfortunately most of it is baseless if not useless. They have been talking about the mythical EOS 3D since 2005.

If you think 1D MK4 is equal to consumer Pentax K5 you are probably not familiar with Canon SLR system. It is pilot error. I recommend reading some guides and perhaps taking a few workshops to familiarize yourself with Canon DSLRs. As always a camera is just as good as the photographer behind it.


here is what the MK4 can do, I don't think any pentax camera can do this, low light flight AF ISO 3200. notice the detail in both whites and darks :S3:



1D4 600mm f/4 1/1250sec ISO 3200 handheld. notice the low light DR.

[Roger Clark]

I agree with Arash. Rumors about Canon gear are usually wrong, canonrumors.com or other sources. Canon is very good about keeping secrets. Regarding low light, there are the common misperceptions on the web. In my opinion, the banding noise in many canon cameras kills otherwise excellent low light performance. The 5D3 has improved banding noise over the 5D2, but that only brought the 5D3 up to the canon average. Here is how I would rate Canon camera in terms of low light performance: #1: 1DIV, 1DX (tie), #2: 7D, #3: 5D3. I would look at consumer cameras before choosing the 5D2 for low light because of the awful banding.

You can see images of banding versus ISO for the 1DX, 1DIV, 7D, 5D3, 5D2 at: http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/index.html#part_4
See the sensor analysis pages for each camera. Those with recent dates (2008 and later) include the banding images. I'll add them to other cameras as I get time. Note the banding images are scaled to the same photon (photoelectron) level, so are directly comparable between cameras.

For low light comparisons (e.g. if you don't believe the 7D is a good low light camera), see: http://www.clarkvision.com/articles/nightscapes

Roger

[Gary Kinard]

LOL, I know Pentax cannot do that shot, but not because of the camera. They do not have the lens. The MK 1V smokes the Pentax K-5 in all ways except sensor IMO.
I am waiting on the next Pentax camera. It wont be as good as 1D series but big bird shots like that Cory with the Pentax and Sigma lens will produce excellent results. Not as sharp only because it will not have a lens like that.
And it will miss more. But not as much as most here think.

As far as the 7D11. I am with you on that. If not I will be in line with you for the 1D mark 1V. By the way Cory. There are a few new ones on the shelves here in Asia. Was in last week and the price is about 3,700 new, no one over here buys them. If you do decide to get one and want one new. I will give you the link. If any are left. No US warranty though. But I have never had problems!!! Which means nothing if you do. But I am picking one up if the 7Dll does not come by early next year.

[arash_hazeghi]

low light DR has nothing to do with the lens used. Images I have seen from Pentax have generally been very poor in IQ but I have never used one myself or know of anyone who uses it. If you have some low light ISO 3200 avian images with comparable detail taken with Pentax please post them here, it would be nice to see.

[Corey Hayes]

I went back to see if I could find any shots that I took at 3200 but I could not find any, but I would agree the the 1.3 crop does have the edge at anything above 1600 but below that there is much less of an advantage. This is in terms of Noise, the Sony sensor does seem to hold the DR advantage.

The Pentax K5 has the best IQ of any APC camera where it fails is in AF and lack of long lenses, this is the primary reason I switched.

I looked in to this a little more and it seems Canon is using a older fabrication process to make there sensors, 500nm its amazing they have been able to stretch the tech this long and still re mane competitive. Nikon and Sony seem to be using 180nm When Canon moves to this process combined with there excellent Digic processors they probably could really improve the worst they could do is match Sony and Nikon

I read this Article today http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/142085-are-canon-and-nikon-killing-off-their-best-crop-sensor-dslrs

I found this quite interesting “The 7D was ahead of its time,” says Chuck Westfall, a Canon technical advisor, by way of explaining the new-product black hole since the EOS 7D was announced. He says the 7D-level Canon is not dead at Canon.

With that and all the rumors floating around I am pretty confidant that a new 7D The question on sensor performance though I am not sure about it will definitely be better then the current model but will it be as good as the 1D mkiV its hard to say I think it has the potability to match it up to 800 or maybe even 1600 but above that the mkiv probably will still hold an edge.

[Roger Clark]

A lot of technical errors and misconceptions in that article, for example the idea that ISO changes sensitivity and crop factor improves telephoto reach. I posted a comment.
Roger

[Corey Hayes]

Yes I agree I didn't actually read the comments, the comments from the Canon guy just caught my eye.

[Alan Stankevitz]

A lot of technical errors and misconceptions in that article, for example the idea that ISO changes sensitivity and crop factor improves telephoto reach. I posted a comment.
Roger


I agree with Roger with one exception. If the camera is used for video, the cropped sensor does effectively increase the "reach". Some camera manufacturers are even allowing the center 1920 x 1080 pixels to become the video frame instead of using the whole sensor. This increases the magnification further and the resulting video is of good quality. (I have been testing the 4/3rds Panasonic GH2 with my Canon 600mm II lens and its sensor doubles the magnification of the 600mm and then quadruples the magnifcation by using only the center 1920 x 1080 pixels.) I'd like to see Canon include this feature in upcoming bodies.

Again, this is strictly while shooting video and not shooting stills.

Alan

[Roger Clark]

I agree with Roger with one exception. If the camera is used for video, the cropped sensor does effectively increase the "reach". Some camera manufacturers are even allowing the center 1920 x 1080 pixels to become the video frame instead of using the whole sensor. This increases the magnification further and the resulting video is of good quality. (I have been testing the 4/3rds Panasonic GH2 with my Canon 600mm II lens and its sensor doubles the magnification of the 600mm and then quadruples the magnifcation by using only the center 1920 x 1080 pixels.) I'd like to see Canon include this feature in upcoming bodies.

Again, this is strictly while shooting video and not shooting stills.

Alan

Alan,
What you describe also has nothing to do with crop factor. Again it is solely a function of pixel size. You could, for example, get the same effect with two full frame cameras: one that uses the full sensor, averaging pixels to get to 1920 x 1080 pixels, and the other using the central 1920 x 1080 pixels.

Roger

[Alan Stankevitz]

Alan,
What you describe also has nothing to do with crop factor. Again it is solely a function of pixel size. You could, for example, get the same effect with two full frame cameras: one that uses the full sensor, averaging pixels to get to 1920 x 1080 pixels, and the other using the central 1920 x 1080 pixels.

Roger

Hi Roger,

I understand what you are stating, but in the Canon "world" their cameras (in video mode) average their pixels across the entire sensor and do not use the central 1920 x 1080 pixels. Using Canon DSLR's as an example and videoing a bird with a 7D (1.6x), 1D Mark IV (1.3x) and a 5D III (full frame) from the same vantage point, the 7D will produce the most "magnified" view of the bird, followed by the Mark IV and lastly the 5D Mark III. I get the concept you are referring to but the bottom line is that the 7D would produce a similar video using the 500mm lens while the full-frame 5D Mark III would require an 800mm lens. In this example, the 7D's cropped sensor does effect apparent magnification.

On the subject of using just the center pixels for video, I am hopeful Canon will incorporate the use of the sensor's center pixels in upcoming DSLR's. Their competition is certainly doing this now and it's a great feature.

Alan

[Roger Clark]

Hi Roger,

I understand what you are stating, but in the Canon "world" their cameras (in video mode) average their pixels across the entire sensor and do not use the central 1920 x 1080 pixels. Using Canon DSLR's as an example and videoing a bird with a 7D (1.6x), 1D Mark IV (1.3x) and a 5D III (full frame) from the same vantage point, the 7D will produce the most "magnified" view of the bird, followed by the Mark IV and lastly the 5D Mark III.

This is also true in still photo mode due to the smaller pixels of the 7D. With stills we can crop and with the smaller pixels of the 7D show those more pixels on subject. I agree in the more fixed mode of video, where we record then display the given format (e.g. 1080p) on a monitor, we are stuck viewing that format and can't zoom in to those smaller pixels. That is a canon firmware limitation, not sensor size limitation.



I get the concept you are referring to but the bottom line is that the 7D would produce a similar video using the 500mm lens while the full-frame 5D Mark III would require an 800mm lens. In this example, the 7D's cropped sensor does effect apparent magnification.
On the subject of using just the center pixels for video, I am hopeful Canon will incorporate the use of the sensor's center pixels in upcoming DSLR's. Their competition is certainly doing this now and it's a great feature.


I agree it is a nice feature to have and I agree with what you are saying.

Roger

[fabiobernardino]

LOL, I know Pentax cannot do that shot, but not because of the camera. They do not have the lens. The MK 1V smokes the Pentax K-5 in all ways except sensor IMO.
I am waiting on the next Pentax camera. It wont be as good as 1D series but big bird shots like that Cory with the Pentax and Sigma lens will produce excellent results. Not as sharp only because it will not have a lens like that.
And it will miss more. But not as much as most here think.

As far as the 7D11. I am with you on that. If not I will be in line with you for the 1D mark 1V. By the way Cory. There are a few new ones on the shelves here in Asia. Was in last week and the price is about 3,700 new, no one over here buys them. If you do decide to get one and want one new. I will give you the link. If any are left. No US warranty though. But I have never had problems!!! Which means nothing if you do. But I am picking one up if the 7Dll does not come by early next year.

I would be interested at the link for the 1D mark IV.
Thank you.